Draft/Trade Options

[HisNoodliness]

So over the past few months we've had various trade proposals and draft strategies brought up for fixing the D. I wanted to see if we have a consensus favorite as a fan base. ( if a mod thinks this is too similar to the draft trade or rebuild threads that's fine and I understand. Feel free to kill this one or merge it.)
What's everyone's preference between:

Option 1: trade:
Detroit: 9 OA (Chicken/Juolevi/Sergachev) (+maybe small add 3rd rounder or later)
Montreal: 16 OA + Tatar
We give up two valuable pieces but get a young defenseman that has #1 potential. Unfortunately none of these guys are Ekblad-esque prospects but as with all prospects you never know until they step onto NHL ice. Personally I think all three have the potential to carry our D for 10+ years. The cost of this is quite steep though. We lose one of our best trading pieces (Tatar) and get no immediate help.

Option 2: Trade:
Detroit: Vatanen
Anaheim: Tatar/Nyquist (+maybe small add, 3rd rounder or Pulks)
Use 16 OA on the likes of Fabbro/McAvoy/Bean/Rubstov or a faller we really like.
This gives us two pieces. Vatanen offers immediate help and can form a mediocre first pairing with DK that will hopefully someday slide into a second pairing role but is serviceable for now.

We still get a good prospect at 16. All three of the D there have good potential but at least a small wart in there game that give a longer and more risky development time. Rubstov is included because he screams "Draft me Detroit," despite not addressing our defensive need. He'd solidify our top 6 forward group and gives confidence in our center depth long-term.

Option 3:
Detroit: Shattenkirk/Fowler
Anaheim/St. Louis: 16 OA+ (Nyquist+2nd rounder+XO) or (Mantha+4th rounder+XO)
I've grouped these together as they're very similar ideas. They'll give us a #1 D (with a wrinkle) that will greatly solidify the D short term but costs an arm and a leg.

Now for the wrinkles: Shattenkirk will be a FA soon and it's very difficult to trade such big pieces for a potential rental. Furthermore sometimes his defensive ability is called into question but he's generally considered a top line D.
Fowler is considered league wide to be a #1 and you pay that price for him...but Anaheim fans seem pretty displeased with him. His play in this playoffs in particular has been less than stellar at times. Advanced stats seem to suggest he's more of a second liner.

Option 4: stand pat draft 16 OA. Try for Fabbro/McAvoy/Bean/Rubstov. Keep Tatar and Nyquist for now. Hope they can be traded at a later date for a D of greater value if they have bounce-backs this season.

Option 5: trade:
Detroit: 18-22 OA+ 35-45 OA
Other team: 16 OA
There are lots of trade back scenarios that scream Ken Holland. The big risk is that we miss out on all of Fabbro/McAvoy/Bean/Rubstov with ~20 OA and end up only with 2nd-3rd pair guys (think Sproul+XO draft). However there are quite a few enticing D that potentially go in the early-mid second (Green, Krys, etc.) and getting 2 of these guys could pay dividends.

So what's everyone's preference among these options? Perhaps there is an option you guys love that I've left out? Maybe you hate them all... Or perhaps you don't think these are enough alone and we need to do two of them in conjunction. Discuss.

P.S. My personal preference is option 2 as I think Dekeyser+Vatanen would be good enough pairing for now as we retool (pronounced rebuild) but we still get some good picks that potentially develop nicely long-term. (also I couldn't figure out how to do a poll but if a MOD prefers that style feel free to do so.)

Click to read more...

 

[Frk It]

The more I read about this draft, the less I am in favor of trading up.

I think the top 3 D are weaker than in most recent years. I don't thin this is the right draft to trade up in for a defenseman.

All for trading for Vatanen, Fowler, Shattenkirk though.

 

[HisNoodliness]

The more I read about this draft, the less I am in favor of trading up.

I think the top 3 D are weaker than in most recent years. I don't thin this is the right draft to trade up in for a defenseman.

All for trading for Vatanen, Fowler, Shattenkirk though.

Yeah I think I'm definitely higher than most on the big three D. The consensus certainly seems to be that this year lacks truly elite talent outside of Matthews, Laine and Puljujarvi. Would you prefer Vatanen or Fowler/Shattenkirk? I know the price scares me away from Shatty and Fowler despite them being clearly better than any D on our team.

 

[Frk It]

Yeah I think I'm definitely higher than most on the big three D. The consensus certainly seems to be that this year lacks truly elite talent outside of Matthews, Laine and Puljujarvi. Would you prefer Vatanen or Fowler/Shattenkirk? I know the price scares me away from Shatty and Fowler despite them being clearly better than any D on our team.

I just don't know that they have the game-changing potential, or maybe the likeliness to reach that potential, to warrant the trade up.

Much rather overpay for an established guy. Absolutely.

 

[TheRatPoisoner]

I hope they don't over think this. Just pick the BPA at 16.

I'm cool with trading Nyquist or Tatar for help on the backend. That alone won't really make that big of a difference though I don't think. I think the only way they manage to stave off a full rebuild is if they hit a home run in the free agent market during the off season.

Option 4 (the do nothing option) is not an option as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

the following
-keep pick 16 unless we can trade for a trouba or fowler
-trade tatar plus jensen for vatanen
-trade datsyuk plus a 5th for pronger and LTIR pronger
-sign stamkos(very unlikely i know) or i guess radulov(not a fan) and brouwer
-trade howard plus pulkinnen for very little cap return

 

[Avery Rule]

I think we end up with Fowler this off-season

 

[Number1RedWingsFan52]

I think we end up with Fowler this off-season

Sure hope so, It would be nice to bring him home. Could really use him i would actually rather have Fowler then Vatanen who will most likely cost us more.

 

[SirloinUB]

the following
-keep pick 16 unless we can trade for a trouba or fowler
-trade tatar plus jensen for vatanen
-trade datsyuk plus a 5th for pronger and LTIR pronger
-sign stamkos(very unlikely i know) or i guess radulov(not a fan) and brouwer
-trade howard plus pulkinnen for very little cap return

Sign me up

 

[Number1RedWingsFan52]

the following
-keep pick 16 unless we can trade for a trouba or fowler
-trade tatar plus jensen for vatanen
-trade datsyuk plus a 5th for pronger and LTIR pronger
-sign stamkos(very unlikely i know) or i guess radulov(not a fan) and brouwer
-trade howard plus pulkinnen for very little cap return

All of these work for me, You know what you've to do Kenny.

 

[Mount Suribachi]

Not a fan of using Tatar to trade up at all. We might in several years have a better player than Tatar, or we might not ever. Options 2 or 3 for me please, gives us a quality player filling a position of need right now.

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

I think that realistically, one of the big three defensemen available in this draft will develop into a top-pair defensemen. The other two will be solid middle pair guys. I also don't think it is realistic to expect any of them to develop into true number one defensemen.

With that in mind, I do not want to give up significant current assets (Gus and Tatar) to move up significantly so that we are sure to get one. If they fall out of the top ten and we only need to move up a couple of spots, I would look to trade up with a more modest package of assets. I would only move Gus or Tatar for bona fide NHL players or top AHL prospects.

 

[HisNoodliness]

the following
-keep pick 16 unless we can trade for a trouba or fowler
-trade tatar plus jensen for vatanen
-trade datsyuk plus a 5th for pronger and LTIR pronger
-sign stamkos(very unlikely i know) or i guess radulov(not a fan) and brouwer
-trade howard plus pulkinnen for very little cap return

How many years remain on Pronger's contract? Because LTIR can in practice only give 10% if his contract is too long, it could be troublesome as Kronwall and Z need LTIR.
Also I'm not a proponent of signing Stamkos at all. He has never been the straw that stirs the drink for his line and post leg injury it's been worse. Now with the blood clot his ability to shoot (his only truly elite skill) could take a hit. I think that Stamkos would probably struggle to hit 40 goals on the wings next year. In 4 seasons I think he's barely getting 30. We can't pay 10.5 million for that (which could be the low end if he signs outside of Tampa). If he'd sign for 8.5 then I'd begrudgingly accept because he's a star, but honestly the guy is a super risky proposition. It tells you something that Yzerman won't go above 8.5 despite Stamkos being the face of his franchise, a fan favorite and a boon to ticket sales.

The rest looks great to me though.

 

[InjuredChoker]

The more I read about this draft, the less I am in favor of trading up.

I think the top 3 D are weaker than in most recent years. I don't thin this is the right draft to trade up in for a defenseman.

All for trading for Vatanen, Fowler, Shattenkirk though.

trading up would be much more costly if even realistically possible if the top 3 D were more like in recent years. and outside of the #1 guy, i like this years draftees more compared to 2014.

 

[Frk It]

trading up would be much more costly if even realistically possible if the top 3 D were more like in recent years. and outside of the #1 guy, i like this years draftees more compared to 2014.

Not saying much. Fleury and Honka were the only defenseman to go in the 2-15 range.

Or are you talking about the draft as a whole?

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

How many years remain on Pronger's contract? Because LTIR can in practice only give 10% if his contract is too long, it could be troublesome as Kronwall and Z need LTIR.
Also I'm not a proponent of signing Stamkos at all. He has never been the straw that stirs the drink for his line and post leg injury it's been worse. Now with the blood clot his ability to shoot (his only truly elite skill) could take a hit. I think that Stamkos would probably struggle to hit 40 goals on the wings next year. In 4 seasons I think he's barely getting 30. We can't pay 10.5 million for that (which could be the low end if he signs outside of Tampa). If he'd sign for 8.5 then I'd begrudgingly accept because he's a star, but honestly the guy is a super risky proposition. It tells you something that Yzerman won't go above 8.5 despite Stamkos being the face of his franchise, a fan favorite and a boon to ticket sales.

The rest looks great to me though.

i agree with alot of what you're saying

as for SY would maybe let Stamkos go the answer is... kucherov, hedman, drouin and johnson

those 4 are ALL going to cost the Bolts within the next 2-3 years at least 5.5 million a piece, add to that palat and killorn and bishop and financially the bolts simply cant afford stamkos without losing at least 1 significant asset(kucherov/johnson/hedman/drouin)

pronger like datsyuk is ufa after the 16-17 season
-the benefit for us is pronger can go on ltir
-the benefit for arizona is datsyuk is actually owed less real dollars than pronger but has a bigger cap hit thus making it easier for them to hit the floor and thereby receive revenue sharing

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

i agree with alot fo what you're saying

as for SY would maybe let Stamkos go the answer is... kucherov, hedman, drouin and johnson

those 4 are ALL going to cost the Bolts within the next 2-3 years at least 5.5 million a piece, add to that palat and killorn and bishop and financially the bolts simply cant afford stamkos without losing at least 1 significant asset(kucherov/johnson/hedman/drouin)

Letting Bishop go is the obvious choice of those candidates.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

Letting Bishop go is the obvious choice of those candidates.

yes i agree

but letting a vezina calibre goalie go(especially) should the bolts win the cup this year or next will be very very difficult

 

[HisNoodliness]

i agree with alot of what you're saying

as for SY would maybe let Stamkos go the answer is... kucherov, hedman, drouin and johnson

those 4 are ALL going to cost the Bolts within the next 2-3 years at least 5.5 million a piece, add to that palat and killorn and bishop and financially the bolts simply cant afford stamkos without losing at least 1 significant asset(kucherov/johnson/hedman/drouin)

pronger like datsyuk is ufa after the 16-17 season
-the benefit for us is pronger can go on ltir
-the benefit for arizona is datsyuk is actually owed less real dollars than pronger but has a bigger cap hit thus making it easier for them to hit the floor and thereby receive revenue sharing

Yeah letting stamkos go is definitely made easier for them because of the rest of their elite talent...which we unfortunately lack. And yeah I see literally no downside with a Datsyuk- Pronger swap then.

Tampa would be very foolish to resign Stammer IMO. Same goes for pretty much every team unless his contract demands become much more reasonable.

 

[Dead Thing Fan]

Wishful thinking

Been reading lots of the various comments about what the Wings could/should/would do for the upcoming season. Here's my take.

First thing I would have done was fire the PP coach. Kicking up to the press box will do.

As for the rest here goes-

1) Trade Datsyuk to Arizona for Pronger. We really don't have to add anything here as the extra $2.5 cap hit for the Coyotes will not jeopardize their qualifying for the NHL equalization fund and it saves them an actual $575,000 that Pronger is owed in salary.
2) Trade #16 OA + Nyquist + Howard(50%retained-$2,646,000 X 3yrs.) to Calgary for #6 OA.
3) Trade Ericsson(with 50%retained-$2,125,000 X 4 yrs.) to anybody for a 7th.. Even with close to $5 million in retained salary, the way I look at it that we save the same amount that can be used elsewhere.
4) Send the 6 OA + our 2016 2nd.(#46 OA) + Toronto's 3rd(for Babcock) + Smith to Winnipeg for RFA Jacob Trouba. 9th. OA pick in'12 by the Jets. 6'2"/200 lbs. right handed shot from Michigan(favourite team as a kid was the Wings). Only 22, already has 3 yrs. experience in the league. From what I have read, seen and heard, he is a legitimate first pairing guy. Sign him to 8 yrs X $5,500,000.
5) Re-sign Marzek(8 X $6,000,000)
6) Re-sign DDK(4 X $5,000,000)
7) Re-sign Helm(4 X $3,500,000)
8) Re-sign Pullkinen(1 X $1,000,000)
9) Re-sign Marchenko(4 X $1,500,000)
10 Re-sign Sheahan(4 X $2,000,000)
11) Re-sign McCollum(2 X $1,500,000)
12) Sign UFA Kyle Okposo(4 X$6,000,000)
13) Sign UFA Jason Demers(5 X $5,000,000)

Forward Lines:
1) Tats($2,750,000)/Larkin($925,000)/Okposo($6,000,000)
2) Abby($4,250,000)/AA($628,333)/Jurco($900,000)
3) Zetts($6,083,333)/Sheahan($2,000,000)/Mantha($863,333)
4) Pulks($1,000,000)/Glendening($628,333)/Helm($3,500,000)
13) Frk($639,167)
TOTAL: $30,167,499

Defense:
1) DDK ($5,000,000)/Green($6,000,000)
2) Trouba ($5,500,000)/Demers($5,000,000)
3) Kronwall($4,750,000)/Marchenko($1,500,000)
7) Ouellett($715,000)
TOTAL: $28,465,000/$58,632,499

Goal:
Mrazek($6,000,000)/McCollum($1,500,000)
TOTAL: $7,500,000/$66,132,499

Other

Buyout(Weiss) $1,066,667
Retained salary (Howard/Ericsson/Kindl)$5,131,000
TOTAL: $6,197667/$72,330,166

Cap space is about $1,600,000(projected cap ceiling $74,000,000) plus almost $9,000,000 in LRIT availability with Franzen and Pronger.

P.S. One of the reasons why I re-signed Helm was his speed. I would love to see Helm, Larkin and AA as a line. I don't think there would be another line in the league that could come close to matching their speed.

PPS. Hope all my numbers work


Flame away

 

[Frk It]

Okposo + Demers in free agency would be a great off-season in my books.

A trade would be great, I just don't see Holland pulling it off for the kind of defenseman people are expecting.

Put it this way... If my options are Demers for nothing, or Vatanen for Nyquist. I'll gladly take Demers. We need a top pairing guy, and I don't think Vatanen is that.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

Okposo + Demers in free agency would be a great off-season in my books.

A trade would be great, I just don't see Holland pulling it off for the kind of defenseman people are expecting.

Put it this way... If my options are Demers for nothing, or Vatanen for Nyquist. I'll gladly take Demers. We need a top pairing guy, and I don't think Vatanen is that.

i understand but isnt demers signing while choosing to keep nyquist just more of the same

half measures while keeping every forward we have

i think nyquist and vatanen are the same level of player, the issue is which position do we need to fill more, top 3 dman or 2nd line winger?

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

i understand but isnt demers signing while choosing to keep nyquist just more of the same

half measures while keeping every forward we have

i think nyquist and vatanen are the same level of player, the issue is which position do we need to fill more, top 3 dman or 2nd line winger?

True, but I think it is unreasonable to expect the Wings to acquire any player who can only be acquired via trade. Ken Holland still has his hand on the rudder and the leopard doesn't change its spots that easily. I can see why posters would define "good offseason" by UFA signings/non-signings.

Ken Holland will trade for an impactful player when Ken Holland trades for an impactful player.

 

[sarcastro]

Been reading lots of the various comments about what the Wings could/should/would do for the upcoming season. Here's my take.

First thing I would have done was fire the PP coach. Kicking up to the press box will do.

As for the rest here goes-

1) Trade Datsyuk to Arizona for Pronger. We really don't have to add anything here as the extra $2.5 cap hit for the Coyotes will not jeopardize their qualifying for the NHL equalization fund and it saves them an actual $575,000 that Pronger is owed in salary.
2) Trade #16 OA + Nyquist + Howard(50%retained-$2,646,000 X 3yrs.) to Calgary for #6 OA.
3) Trade Ericsson(with 50%retained-$2,125,000 X 4 yrs.) to anybody for a 7th.. Even with close to $5 million in retained salary, the way I look at it that we save the same amount that can be used elsewhere.
4) Send the 6 OA + our 2016 2nd.(#46 OA) + Toronto's 3rd(for Babcock) + Smith to Winnipeg for RFA Jacob Trouba. 9th. OA pick in'12 by the Jets. 6'2"/200 lbs. right handed shot from Michigan(favourite team as a kid was the Wings). Only 22, already has 3 yrs. experience in the league. From what I have read, seen and heard, he is a legitimate first pairing guy. Sign him to 8 yrs X $5,500,000.
5) Re-sign Marzek(8 X $6,000,000)
6) Re-sign DDK(4 X $5,000,000)
7) Re-sign Helm(4 X $3,500,000)
8) Re-sign Pullkinen(1 X $1,000,000)
9) Re-sign Marchenko(4 X $1,500,000)
10 Re-sign Sheahan(4 X $2,000,000)
11) Re-sign McCollum(2 X $1,500,000)
12) Sign UFA Kyle Okposo(4 X$6,000,000)
13) Sign UFA Jason Demers(5 X $5,000,000)

Forward Lines:
1) Tats($2,750,000)/Larkin($925,000)/Okposo($6,000,000)
2) Abby($4,250,000)/AA($628,333)/Jurco($900,000)
3) Zetts($6,083,333)/Sheahan($2,000,000)/Mantha($863,333)
4) Pulks($1,000,000)/Glendening($628,333)/Helm($3,500,000)
13) Frk($639,167)
TOTAL: $30,167,499

Defense:
1) DDK ($5,000,000)/Green($6,000,000)
2) Trouba ($5,500,000)/Demers($5,000,000)
3) Kronwall($4,750,000)/Marchenko($1,500,000)
7) Ouellett($715,000)
TOTAL: $28,465,000/$58,632,499

Goal:
Mrazek($6,000,000)/McCollum($1,500,000)
TOTAL: $7,500,000/$66,132,499

Other

Buyout(Weiss) $1,066,667
Retained salary (Howard/Ericsson/Kindl)$5,131,000
TOTAL: $6,197667/$72,330,166

Cap space is about $1,600,000(projected cap ceiling $74,000,000) plus almost $9,000,000 in LRIT availability with Franzen and Pronger.

P.S. One of the reasons why I re-signed Helm was his speed. I would love to see Helm, Larkin and AA as a line. I don't think there would be another line in the league that could come close to matching their speed.

PPS. Hope all my numbers work


Flame away

There are a number of things to note here. But only one is really relevant, and renders the rest moot.

You would have to get under the cap on opening night with Franzen and Pronger's cap hits before you could bury them in LTIR. So on opening night you're about $10m over the cap.

The numbers don't work.

 

[Frk It]

Okposo + Demers in free agency would be a great off-season in my books.

A trade would be great, I just don't see Holland pulling it off for the kind of defenseman people are expecting.

Put it this way... If my options are Demers for nothing, or Vatanen for Nyquist. I'll gladly take Demers. We need a top pairing guy, and I don't think Vatanen is that.

I'm all for a trade for a top pairing guy. Byfuglien would have been great, but he re-signed. Shattenkirk would be awesome, but who knows if we have the pieces to even get him.

I like Vatanen... but he is a middle pair + PP guy. I don't really know that you want him going against top forward lines every night.