LLoyd Christmas I
Registered User
- Jul 11, 2013
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what jersey number will Murray wear in Montreal?
He wore both 6 and 41 for a while.
Last edited:
what jersey number will Murray wear in Montreal?
He wore both 6 and 41 for a while.
41 isn't a defensemen number but I'd prefer that to no6. Recent Habs defensemen wearing no 6 have been lackluster to say the least. On the other end Murray's just as slow as the previous number sixes, hopefully he's 100x more intimidating.
The people that were dying to have Artyu, the guys that wanted us to call up Alex Henry when we played Boston, the people that think Shawn freaking Thornton was the reason why Boston won the damn cup. Those guys.
There are a number of stay at home defensemen that the micros love. They just aren't the ones that have zero puck skills and skating ability. What the really show is that a lot of these guys are abso-freaking useless at the 180 feet of the ice that aren't right around their own net.
Guys like Fayne, Vlasic, McDonagh, Hamhuis, Garrison, Sarich, Staal, Alzner, Hamonic, Smid, Mitchell, Jackman Beachemin etc. are stay at home guys. But they are ones that actually get results defensively. The problem with guys like Komisarek et al is that because they can't help push play forward they spend to much time with the other side attacking, which leads to more goals against. And if a "defensive" defenseman is bad at keeping goals from happening when he's on the ice, what's the point of him?
Murray used to be a stay at home guy the advanced stats loved. But that was two years ago and his numbers have cratered. Which co-incides with when he lost the ability to skate.
Briere's more intimidating than some of the recent 6s.
McDonagh is a stay-at-home type now? Vlasic? Hamhuis?... Staal?! Beauchemin? Garrison?
Most of the guys you just enumerated aren't even playing a stay-at-home game. Smid himself has some terrible shot-differential stats when he's on the ice. This Berkshire guy (or whatever his name is) piled up some stats claiming that Scuderi had a negative influence on his team's play in the defensive zone.
The thing is that, you come up with stats on Murray taken completely out of the chart/context itself, you don't mention all of the aberration on these reports, and you make it look like it's rocket science. And some people buy that.
Sorry if I don't. Especially with stats showing a tendency to discredit a lot of what guys like Murray, Regehr and Smid (3 very good d-men in their own style) do.
Lesson 1 of narrative theory: They are constructed by individual or a group of individual actors, all of which have their own motivations and interests to promote.
Lesson 2 of narrative theory: As an interpretation of reality, as opposed to a true representation of reality, narratives only represent parts of an event rather than the whole of it.
Lesson 3 narrative theory: Narratives tend to exclude, overlook and deliberately omit aspects of reality that immediately contradict or challenge it.
Lesson 4 of narrative theory: because they are predicated on a set of binary assumptions that are inherently inductive as well as self-serving (as per your lesson 1), the expansion of the narrative's logical argument to a large enough sample of examples will reveal the underlying contradictions of the bias.
e.g.
Mtl lost to Ott because of a lack of toughness...
Toronto took Boston to 7 games because while you may think their dmen are ahl caliber, they are tough and therefore hard to play against...
but...
Pittsburgh annihilated Ottawa based on skill and then got jacked up by Boston based on the same toughness that apparently elevated Toronto to be a much better team than pittsburgh...
But meanwhile that same team toughness was immediately lacking from Ottawas gameplan against pitt?
Point being... taken together all arguments about the importance of toughness are non sequitor out of specific context and a couple of good bounces early in a game/series can completely change the outcome.
If anything, the HABS should try to target "lucky" players, and based on the pics Ive seen of Nordegren, Murray seems to fit the bill
What the numbers also show is that Murray and Regehr were solid defensive players 2 years ago but they've fallen off a cliff.
Funny, because before this strike shortened season, Murray's PDO was well over 1000 (second highest among Shark defenders), and his on-ice SV% was 0.944. If goalies stop 94.4% of the shots while you're on the ice, and the team is still generating enough offense around you to end up with a >1000 PDO, I don't care what the other micro stats tell you, you're looking at an effective stay-at-home defender.
So all this "decline" has pretty much been observed during the past strike-shortened and condensed season... He has always been slow, and there have always been people who default their thinking to "slow=not good in the nuuuu NHL", but anyone commenting on his diminishing effectiveness starting any earlier simply isn't looking at the right numbers to go with their observation (where applicable... which it often isn't, it would seem).
I didn't end up responding to overlords' post a couple of days ago, but he echoed the same thing I keep reading: "if we get 2009 Murray, it will be worth it". Well, my question is: by the numbers (since this is obviously where overlords/MathMan/etc spend most of their time making decisions/evaluations), how much difference IS there between 2009 Murray and 2010 or 2011 Murray? Seems to me that last year is the only time I've seen both a) periods of being exploited by a small group of faster skaters AND b) seen a corresponding "significant" drop in his numbers (last year was the first time <1000 for his PDO, for example, and the first time that his on-ice SV% didn't rank very highly beside his teammates).
This "pattern of decline thing" has been overstated, and is not even in the same realm of alarm that Briere's "decline" is, or Kaberle's was, imo. And just wait until people see how good/smart Murray is at pinching at the offensive blueline to keep pucks in the zone, or forcing the dump in when opposing forwards get to the blueline. That's not showing up in the stats anywhere either, unfortunately, but is another hallmark of a smart player who can make judgements quickly enough to compensate for whatever physical limitations affect execution.
What a ridiculous thing to say.. In one offseason he simply "lost the ability to skate"? There couldn't have been a change in some of the infinite number of other variables? You say 2 years ago as if it were a decade ago. Murray still has some game left, and after Chara, he may be the toughest dman in the league. Whether there is a quantitative stat for it or not, clearing your crease and keeping opponents conscious of the fact they may be knocked unconscious while crossing our blueline, is a very important aspect of the game called hockey. And more importantly, those are two aspects we desperately lacked.Murray used to be a stay at home guy the advanced stats loved. But that was two years ago and his numbers have cratered. Which co-incides with when he lost the ability to skate.
Of course. It would be great if he put his high intellect to use on some sort of anti-aging cream that brought back his top-4 effectiveness, but I wouldn't be the one betting 1.5 million dollars on it.
I'm only just a bit more to the negative (regarding the player) than you. I'd say he's more in the 'depth' d-man mold than 'bottom pairing' if he puts up last year's performance again, or god forbid, gets worse. If he improves a bit on last year's performance, yeah I'd say #6 isn't the end of the world at all. I can't wait to see him destroy kessel.
Shawn freaking Thornton changed nothing. Nothing.
.....
Jesus. People take this **** personally.
That's not taking it personally. If 90% of the commentary surrounding Murray's (or any other player's, for that matter) "decline" is mired in the depths of advanced statistics, then the shoe fits.
Doug Murray is a perfect "bottom pairing Dman". He's a major need on this team and is simply a better player than Bouillon and DD. If he's #7 on our team, we are in the money.
I've defended the usage of advanced stats a lot in this thread, but I don't even think I've actually brought any into the conversation. Most if not all my comments on murray were based on viewing. It's just cool that the advanced stats back up what I saw.
Wait wait wait...
You mean, you watch the games, and then you look at advanced stats for more information?
That's...crazy.
Admit it, you don't watch the games. Neither does mathman. You guys just wait until behindthenet.ca comes out with numbers, and then you formulate an opinion.
ADMIT IT!
I've defended the usage of advanced stats a lot in this thread, but I don't even think I've actually brought any into the conversation. Most if not all my comments on murray were based on viewing. It's just cool that the advanced stats back up what I saw.
You're not really bringing much in the form of argument here. He's a perfect 'bottom pairing dman'? Well, I'm sold.
I remember when you were telling me that Subban 'simply' wasn't as good as a few other dudes around this time last year, too.
I've defended the usage of advanced stats a lot in this thread, but I don't even think I've actually brought any into the conversation. Most if not all my comments on murray were based on viewing. It's just cool that the advanced stats back up what I saw.
Funny, because before this strike shortened season, Murray's PDO was well over 1000 (second highest among Shark defenders), and his on-ice SV% was 0.944. If goalies stop 94.4% of the shots while you're on the ice, and the team is still generating enough offense around you to end up with a >1000 PDO, I don't care what the other micro stats tell you, you're looking at an effective stay-at-home defender.
So all this "decline" has pretty much been observed during the past strike-shortened and condensed season... He has always been slow, and there have always been people who default their thinking to "slow=not good in the nuuuu NHL", but anyone commenting on his diminishing effectiveness starting any earlier simply isn't looking at the right numbers to go with their observation (where applicable... which it often isn't, it would seem).
I didn't end up responding to overlords' post a couple of days ago, but he echoed the same thing I keep reading: "if we get 2009 Murray, it will be worth it". Well, my question is: by the numbers (since this is obviously where overlords/MathMan/etc spend most of their time making decisions/evaluations), how much difference IS there between 2009 Murray and 2010 or 2011 Murray? Seems to me that last year is the only time I've seen both a) periods of being exploited by a small group of faster skaters AND b) seen a corresponding "significant" drop in his numbers (last year was the first time <1000 for his PDO, for example, and the first time that his on-ice SV% didn't rank very highly beside his teammates).
This "pattern of decline thing" has been overstated, and is not even in the same realm of alarm that Briere's "decline" is, or Kaberle's was, imo. And just wait until people see how good/smart Murray is at pinching at the offensive blueline to keep pucks in the zone, or forcing the dump in when opposing forwards get to the blueline. That's not showing up in the stats anywhere either, unfortunately, but is another hallmark of a smart player who can make judgements quickly enough to compensate for whatever physical limitations affect execution.
There are a number of stay at home defensemen that the micros love. They just aren't the ones that have zero puck skills and skating ability. What the really show is that a lot of these guys are abso-freaking useless at the 180 feet of the ice that aren't right around their own net.
Guys like Fayne, Vlasic, McDonagh, Hamhuis, Garrison, Sarich, Staal, Alzner, Hamonic, Smid, Mitchell, Jackman Beachemin etc. are stay at home guys. But they are ones that actually get results defensively. The problem with guys like Komisarek et al is that because they can't help push play forward they spend to much time with the other side attacking, which leads to more goals against. And if a "defensive" defenseman is bad at keeping goals from happening when he's on the ice, what's the point of him?
Murray used to be a stay at home guy the advanced stats loved. But that was two years ago and his numbers have cratered. Which co-incides with when he lost the ability to skate.
We had issues closing out games, in the last few minutes of play when the opponent is pressing for the tying goal we are in a defensive mode whether we have a PMD or a Shutdown guy. This is hopefully where Murray will shine and can help the team more than a PMD would.
Briere's more intimidating than some of the recent 6s.
Doug is definitely a good presence in the dressing room, very calming and happy.
You deciphered that from a 3 minute video?