Proposal: Dougie Hamilton

[The Zermanator]

If only the Wings had all the young, underachieving defensemen who either got dumped by their team or who's teams are looking to dump them. Then, the Wings would be awesome!!! Until said defensemen come here and we start to hate them too and wish for the next crop of underachieving young defensemen that other teams are looking to get rid of.

You're so right! Let's continue to not do anything to address the D, because that's so much better...

 

[njx9]

If only the Wings had all the young, underachieving defensemen who either got dumped by their team or who's teams are looking to dump them. Then, the Wings would be awesome!!! Until said defensemen come here and we start to hate them too and wish for the next crop of underachieving young defensemen that other teams are looking to get rid of.

If only the Wings just kept the same bottom-of-the-league group, and never did anything to try to upgrade the position. Then the defense would just continue to limp along as a bottom-of-the-league group, and the team would never win anything!!! But at least then the fans are hating a familiar group of players, instead of new players, because who the fans hate is truly the most relevant thing.



Of all the arguments for not trading for Trouba or Hamilton or Myers or whoever, this is by far the most asinine, and yet some version of it seems to pop up in every possible trade thread.

 

[Yemack]

If only the Wings just kept the same bottom-of-the-league group, and never did anything to try to upgrade the position. Then the defense would just continue to limp along as a bottom-of-the-league group, and the team would never win anything!!! But at least then the fans are hating a familiar group of players, instead of new players, because who the fans hate is truly the most relevant thing.

Who is this 'bottom of the league group' you are talking about? Can't be the same Wings I know.

btw I dont think people were arguing that 'we should never make any trade and stand pat'. Sounds like you are throwing stones at straw man.

 

[Obe2kenobe]

If only the Wings just kept the same bottom-of-the-league group, and never did anything to try to upgrade the position. Then the defense would just continue to limp along as a bottom-of-the-league group, and the team would never win anything!!! But at least then the fans are hating a familiar group of players, instead of new players, because who the fans hate is truly the most relevant thing.



Of all the arguments for not trading for Trouba or Hamilton or Myers or whoever, this is by far the most asinine, and yet some version of it seems to pop up in every possible trade thread.

Because someone has a differing opinion it is by far the most asinine?
Bottom of the league? Green is only behind Burns in defense scoring last I looked.
The wings defense could use a upgrade sure. But none of these players, Trouba,Hamilton, Myers are going to improve them enough to offset the loss of a player like Nyquist or Tatar +.
But that's just my opinion.

 

[Frk It]

Who is this 'bottom of the league group' you are talking about? Can't be the same Wings I know.

Not sure that a 5 game win streak means that we don't still have a below average defensive group that needs help. Currently allowing the 2nd most shot attempts per game this season. We have benefited from both a high shooting % and save % thus far.

btw I dont think people were arguing that 'we should never make any trade and stand pat'. Sounds like you are throwing stones at straw man.

Maybe not, but some people shoot down every single player that actually hits the trade block. Because they "aren't top pairing guys". While it would be great to acquire a legitimate top pairing guy with no warts (where player X hits market and we unanimously say we want him), those guy's don't hit the market.

Folks have been right too, sometimes the better move is no move. Because of cost, fit, etc. Claypool correctly has a few examples of this he/she points out.

But I think we are at the point where our forward group is maybe the deepest it has been, and we could stand to take a risk that someone comes here and takes a big step forward. Example -- I hated the Hall for Larsson swap from a value standpoint (think Hall is a much better hockey player), but Edmonton addressed one of their needs in a big way and has been playing well this season. Made them a much more balanced team.

 

[njx9]

Who is this 'bottom of the league group' you are talking about? Can't be the same Wings I know.

btw I dont think people were arguing that 'we should never make any trade and stand pat'. Sounds like you are throwing stones at straw man.

I think I rephrased the argument I quoted. You might read it before calling it a strawman.

Because someone has a differing opinion it is by far the most asinine?
Bottom of the league? Green is only behind Burns in defense scoring last I looked.
The wings defense could use a upgrade sure. But none of these players, Trouba,Hamilton, Myers are going to improve them enough to offset the loss of a player like Nyquist or Tatar +.
But that's just my opinion.

A different opinion? It was a bald mischaracterization of the arguments for acquiring a defenseman, and then a bizarre complaint about how Wings fans would 'just hate the new guy'. That's not calling a 'different opinion' asinine, it's calling a bad argument asinine. The opinion you allude to at the end of your post is a far better argument for not making a move than 'Wings fans would just hate the new guy, so better not do anything', even if I disagree with it.

 

[Retire91]

I doubt this roomer has any legs. Its not common for someone to get traded that soon after a big trade.

 

[Yemack]

Not sure that a 5 game win streak means that we don't still have a below average defensive group that needs help. Currently allowing the 2nd most shot attempts per game this season. We have benefited from both a high shooting % and save % thus far.



Maybe not, but some people shoot down every single player that actually hits the trade block. Because they "aren't top pairing guys". While it would be great to acquire a legitimate top pairing guy with no warts (where player X hits market and we unanimously say we want him), those guy's don't hit the market.

Folks have been right too, sometimes the better move is no move. Because of cost, fit, etc. Claypool correctly has a few examples of this he/she points out.

But I think we are at the point where our forward group is maybe the deepest it has been, and we could stand to take a risk that someone comes here and takes a big step forward. Example -- I hated the Hall for Larsson swap from a value standpoint (think Hall is a much better hockey player), but Edmonton addressed one of their needs in a big way and has been playing well this season. Made them a much more balanced team.

First, I was talking about Wings defensive performance for last few seasons. Both defensive and offensive stats have been kinda middle of the pack but Wings offensive has been worse last few seasons. So I just want us to be careful.

I have to admit, I haven't seen Hamilton played whole a lot. I just saw a youtube video before I joined this discussion. So excuse my ignorance. Let's see what he is going to add to this team. His wheel would be nice for sure and so is his shot. People tell me he is big but doesn't play like a big man. Maybe I dont know what the hell I'm talking about in terms of fit and his skillset but I just haven't seen a convincing argument in this thread why his skillset would help this team and why such would be worth the cost.

btw, the fact that Calgary has soured on him so soon, doesn't really bode well for me especially when I dont know that much about Hamilton.

 

[Winger98]

well Tatar + Smith seems pretty significant enough that I dont want Hamilton at that cost. That's the problem. Like I said, I dont want to offload that much talent to get Hamilton whose talent we dont desperately need.

Also I am willing to go long on Tatar. Bit of slow start for him, sure but I know he has a lot more to give. It's just that our 2nd line isn't meshing well right now. Him, Z and Sheahan need to have a sit down and talk how each think hockey should be played. Z is not going at 100% right now and we may prefer not to be, but you can see he still sees the game at elite level and probably has most skill in our lineup. If they can understand each other better, Z can make something happen with Tatar even at him being 75%.

Fair enough. I don't see Tatar and Smith being a high price, at least not with Smith being a UFA after this season and Tatar coming up for a raise. Hamilton's not perfect, but we don't have the assets to acquire the perfect player. He's a young top3 D who could be here for a decade, and it's something we've had a difficult time finding in our own system - while guys like Kronwall and Ericsson continue to break down and Green nears free agency again (and is getting older himself).

I haven't been able to catch the past few games, so I can't say much about the lines recently. I don't like Sheahan, though, and I think he is what he is. I think the quickest way to improve a scoring line is to move him off of it.

not even close to the same

sure he would have not like we had an amazing top 6 those years.

We also shouldn't pretend that Lang was some scrub while he was here. He was productive for the handful of games he played after the trade, then he missed a year with the lockout, and then he was productive again in a very different system (and team) after the lockout while the organization adjusted to Babcock. He wasn't dominant, but he was a significant piece in our top6.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

Red Wings fans have similar attitudes to the Irish. Having grown up with grandparents being from Ireland, cousins, aunts, uncles, all from the old country, it's this attitude of, "If it's too expensive, than we don't need it, and it's not that good anyway. And let's disparage those things we don't have anyway." It's like when a 10/10 girlfriend breaks up with you, and you start finding the warts on her to justify why the loss wasn't that big anyway.

That is the attitude that some fans have over upgrading the blue line via significant trade.

 

[Winger98]

Red Wings fans have similar attitudes to the Irish. Having grown up with grandparents being from Ireland, cousins, aunts, uncles, all from the old country, it's this attitude of, "If it's too expensive, than we don't need it, and it's not that good anyway. And let's disparage those things we don't have anyway." It's like when a 10/10 girlfriend breaks up with you, and you start finding the warts on her to justify why the loss wasn't that big anyway.

That is the attitude that some fans have over upgrading the blue line via significant trade.

so, you're saying the irish are too expensive for us to deal with and we shouldn't bother drafting/trying to sign them?

edit: Lebda did price himself out the first chance he got...maybe we should deal Sheahan sooner than we thought...

 

[Claypool]

Red Wings fans have similar attitudes to the Irish. Having grown up with grandparents being from Ireland, cousins, aunts, uncles, all from the old country, it's this attitude of, "If it's too expensive, than we don't need it, and it's not that good anyway. And let's disparage those things we don't have anyway." It's like when a 10/10 girlfriend breaks up with you, and you start finding the warts on her to justify why the loss wasn't that big anyway.

That is the attitude that some fans have over upgrading the blue line via significant trade.

I'm sure you'd be happy with Phanuef and Myers right now.

 

[Yemack]

Red Wings fans have similar attitudes to the Irish. Having grown up with grandparents being from Ireland, cousins, aunts, uncles, all from the old country, it's this attitude of, "If it's too expensive, than we don't need it, and it's not that good anyway. And let's disparage those things we don't have anyway." It's like when a 10/10 girlfriend breaks up with you, and you start finding the warts on her to justify why the loss wasn't that big anyway.

That is the attitude that some fans have over upgrading the blue line via significant trade.

Well this thread is about dougie hamilton... and I dont think people were against trade in general about other players so I dont exactly see where your frustration is coming from with all this Irish granpa and 10/10 girlfriend.

dont worry Cyborg, I'm sure Wings fans are not against trade. Maybe not Hamilton though.

 

[njx9]

I'm sure you'd be happy with Phanuef and Myers right now.

I have no idea what your argument actually is. Are you advocating the team never do anything to try to get an upgrade, just in case the player isn't actually Erik Karlsson? Are you suggesting that previous rumored targets were, in hindsight, not the top pairing guys they weren't when the rumors were swirling? What's your end game?

 

[obey86]

Red Wings fans have similar attitudes to the Irish. Having grown up with grandparents being from Ireland, cousins, aunts, uncles, all from the old country, it's this attitude of, "If it's too expensive, than we don't need it, and it's not that good anyway. And let's disparage those things we don't have anyway." It's like when a 10/10 girlfriend breaks up with you, and you start finding the warts on her to justify why the loss wasn't that big anyway.

That is the attitude that some fans have over upgrading the blue line via significant trade.

I'm fine with upgrading the blue line via trade. I just don't think 90% of the rumored targets will make anything more than a negligible difference and in 1-2 years we'll be calling for their heads just like we do everyone now.

For example, players like Myers, Bogosian, Phaneuf, and Hamilton have all been rumored targets over the last few years and gone to their new teams and made little or no impact. Maybe there's a reason their teams wanted to get rid of them in the first place. And maybe that's why the Wings weren't and typically aren't willing to pay the high costs to get these players.

 

[Winger98]

I'm fine with upgrading the blue line via trade. I just don't think 90% of the rumored targets will make anything more than a negligible difference and in 1-2 years we'll be calling for their heads just like we do everyone now.

For example, players like Myers, Bogosian, Phaneuf, and Hamilton have all been rumored targets over the last few years and gone to their new teams and made little or no impact. Maybe there's a reason their teams wanted to get rid of them in the first place. And maybe that's why the Wings weren't and typically aren't willing to pay the high costs to get these players.

outside of a handful of guys who are unlikely to be available or attainable that's pretty much true of anyone we might trade for.

 

[Claypool]

For example, players like Myers, Bogosian, Phaneuf, and Hamilton have all been rumored targets over the last few years and gone to their new teams and made little or no impact. Maybe there's a reason their teams wanted to get rid of them in the first place. And maybe that's why the Wings weren't and typically aren't willing to pay the high costs to get these players.

The problem is some folks here believe that putting on the Red Wings sweater makes you a better hockey player.

I remember rolling my eyes over and over again reading about how Tyler Myers is a future Norris winner who's good for 50+ point a season and would be the backbone of the team's defense for the next decade. Winnipeg probably can't wait to get rid of the guy now.

 

[Henkka]

The problem is some folks here believe that putting on the Red Wings sweater makes you a better hockey player.

Happened with Vanek!

 

[obey86]

outside of a handful of guys who are unlikely to be available or attainable that's pretty much true of anyone we might trade for.

So why bother paying huge assets for guys like that in the first place?

If trading something like Mantha, Tatar, and a 2nd round pick for Tyler Myers only improves the team marginally at best, and in two years we want to run Myers out of town for his 5.5M cap hit and non-difference making play.........was the trade worth it? Or were the Wings better off just holding onto what they had and keeping a productive player in Nyquist along with a cost controlled Mantha and a 2nd round pick (in my example)?

I mean, obviously who knows what would happen 100%....but looking at all these defenders who have been traded in recent years who haven't had any sort of impact on their new teams it really makes you wonder if maybe the Red Wings are valuing them correctly in trades by not wanting to give up huge assets for them.

 

[Winger98]

So why bother paying huge assets for guys like that in the first place?

If trading something like Mantha, Tatar, and a 2nd round pick for Tyler Myers only improves the team marginally at best, and in two years we want to run Myers out of town for his 5.5M cap hit and non-difference making play.........was the trade worth it? Or were the Wings better off just holding onto what they had and keeping a productive player in Nyquist along with a cost controlled Mantha and a 2nd round pick (in my example)?

I mean, obviously who knows what would happen 100%....but looking at all these defenders who have been traded in recent years who haven't had any sort of impact on their new teams it really makes you wonder if maybe the Red Wings are valuing them correctly in trades by not wanting to give up huge assets for them.

No, I'm saying we'll gripe about a guy regardless of how well he's doing (or not doing). The guy could come in and be another Rafalski and we'd complain he wasn't physical enough.

Right now, we have two guys who are legit top4 guys. If we can bring in someone who can also hold down 20+ minutes a night and knock everyone else down a notch on the blueline, we'd be better off this year. With Smith being a UFA after this season, Green the year after, and injury concerns with Kronwall and Ericsson, some sort of long term answer would be welcomed there, too.

Pretty much every big name D that's been dealt would at worst be #3 here and logging 20+ minutes a night. I don't want to give up "huge" assets for these guys, either, but I also don't see something like Tatar/Smith/pick as huge.

 

[Yemack]

I heard he scored 2 goals last night. Maybe it isn't such a bad idea after all

 

[Frk It]

Pretty much every big name D that's been dealt would at worst be #3 here and logging 20+ minutes a night. I don't want to give up "huge" assets for these guys, either, but I also don't see something like Tatar/Smith/pick as huge.

Flames got him for a 1st and two 2nd's, which was considered to be cheap. Put up a career high in goals and points last year. With Tatar's down year last year and slow start this year, I imagine that pick would have to be a first. Doubt Smith has any trade value at all at this point.

 

[obey86]

Flames got him for a 1st and two 2nd's, which was considered to be cheap. Put up a career high in goals and points last year. With Tatar's down year last year and slow start this year, I imagine that pick would have to be a first. Doubt Smith has any trade value at all at this point.

Yeah, and he didn't improve the team one bit. In fact, they got significantly worse. Even with a career high in points, Calgary fans were disappointed in his play last season.

The fact that he appears to be on the trade block again shows that the Flames themselves don't think his career high in points was all that impactful or valuable for the team.

-----

Mike Green puts up 35 points in 74 games playing on a team that can't finish chances and plenty of people say he was a disappointment last season.

Dougie Hamilton puts up 43 points in 82 games playing on a team with a top 10 offense and plenty of people think he is the answer to the Red Wings problems.

Makes no sense to me.

 

[obey86]

Right now Dougie Hamilton is getting less time on ice than Deryk Engelland. Even his own coaching staff thinks he is mediocre. Probably the reason they want to trade him.

 

[Frk It]

Yeah, and he didn't improve the team one bit. In fact, they got significantly worse. Even with a career high in points, Calgary fans were disappointed in his play last season.

The fact that he appears to be on the trade block again shows that the Flames themselves don't think his career high in points was all that impactful or valuable for the team.

-----

Mike Green puts up 35 points in 74 games playing on a team that can't finish chances and plenty of people say he was a disappointment last season.

Dougie Hamilton puts up 43 points in 82 games playing on a team with a top 10 offense and plenty of people think he is the answer to the Red Wings problems.

Makes no sense to me.

Huge Mike Green fan, so not sure what to tell you. 43 pts is good regardless what team you're on, IMO.

Also not sure I'm willing to bag on Dougie for playing on a team whose goalies couldn't stop a beach ball last year.