Kings Article: Doughty Throws Down Gauntlet to LA Kings Management. But Was He Right?

[Rusty Batch]

So show me how you do it?
You absolutely need a legit 2C.
You spend 1/2 the f***ing season with Blake Lizotte as 2C.
So which young center do you sacrifice to go overpay for your 2C in free agency.
I'm a Red Wings fan. I've checked, as we're in the same situation.
There aren't good options.
How about on defense. Again. Wings fan. I've checked.
Lots of Wings fans think Alex Martinez is the guy to lead them next year.
Kings fans know that you can have Doughty and Martinez and still suck, right?

You're in a rebuild, man. You can't just snap your fingers and be done with it.

#2C is not a problem for us. We have Kopitar, Byfield, Turcotte, Vilardi, JAD, etc... Three of those guys should be able to do an excellent job filling the top 3 center roles in the very near future. Potentially as soon as next year if one of them not named Kopitar takes a big step forward this off-season. Maybe it takes another year for that to happen tho, that's fine.

Or let's say we do make an Eichel trade which I'm on board with as long as his health checks out and we don't include Byfield (I think even w/o including Byfield we can beat any other teams offer). If we do that our center depth is likely the best in the league.

Just don't see center depth as a problem...

Our D core has some issues but Doughty fills the toughest spot. Bjornfot/Anderson appear to be solid top four guys. We have some additional nice prospects as well to move for upgrades if we choose.

We don't have to fill all our holes through UFA. We can also scoop some guys with Trades and the cap space we have allows for that as well.

 

[SFKingshomer]

Feels like the article missed the entire contradiction of what the Kings are trying to do. Rebuilds are generally not done while keeping the most expensive 4-5 players on the team who are in their prime or slightly past it. Has any team ever tried to do a rebuild in this fashion and been successful?

By keep 8 and 11 on the roster, Blake was basically shooting for a 3 year rebuild. Why else would he keep them unless the plan was for them to be part of the next Cup run? So he's now nearing the end of year 3. As such, the team is either ready to compete in the playoffs or the 8/11/rebuild has failed. Which is it?

If the rebuild was never intended to be finished in 3 years then Blake screwed up royally by not dealing all or most of the Quick/Doughty/Kopitar/Brown quartet. The locker room now runs a real risk of turning toxic which is the last place you'd want to bring your prized prospects into. And it's totally Blake's fault.

Doughty has thrown down the gauntlet and rightly so.

Chicago did this but lost some due to “long term IR” and they might have made the playoffs with a healthy Captain.

 

[KINGS17]

Well, without the vets, this season's centers would have been something like Vilardi-Kempe-JAD-Lizotte. We may have only finished slightly worse, but I'm not a fan of Vilardi getting his head bashed in all year by other teams' top players as well as the weight of expectations. Hell this forum rode the shit out of Gabe and Kempe and Lizotte in their reduced roles.

Why? It's not like Blake is not allowed to get veteran forwards from a source other than the Ontario Reign.

 

[Sol]

The only position available this season was goaltending and our boy Cal Petersen was stanky towards the end of the season. "NO ONE STEPPED UP" while the only line that stayed in tact was the first line and Kopitar at no point was playing second line. Kinda ridiculous. Doughty and Kopitar were firmly going to be number ones in their position whether they sucked or not. The spots at no point were visibly available at all.


If I'm Blake I realize that my job is on the line and I realize that I'm failing the rebuild. I'd trade this years first and Turcotte for a super star like Eichel, play Trifield number center and improve the team in other ways I can. Firing TMac for example.


Stanky team, stanky mentality in management, and a massive disparity in youth and older players in age.

 

[johnjm22]

The Kings have traded every tradeable veteran they can, and have hoarded all the picks/prospects they can. It's a REBUILD.

Trading futures or signing big UFA's to try and win now is a waste of time and not going to make them a contender.

Objectively, the best course of action is to stay the course and keep acquiring young talent into the system.

If Doughty/Kopitar eventually want out, then you can try and move them. But as of now they're immovable because of their clauses, and there is some benefit to having them on the roster while the rebuild is going on anyways.

 

[Fishhead]

Improve the team by trading an asset for a late 20's journeyman or signing a UFA to a long term expensive contract: No.

Improve the team by trading a couple of assets for a early-mid 20's RFA status player who can grow with the core: Yes.

No moves just to make moves.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Why? It's not like Blake is not allowed to get veteran forwards from a source other than the Ontario Reign.

Last season's available UFA Cs were Cody Eakin, Turris, Craig Smith. Mikko Koivu, who retired early season. Not one of those guys is even a f***ing seat filler. This year's are krejci, stepan, stastny, and then getzlaf like Koivu imo, not going anywhere.

Trade Kopitar for assets and sign Cody Eakin to be a veteran leader in his stead is some dark era bullshit not even dave taylor would do.

 

[Rusty Batch]

Improve the team by trading an asset for a late 20's journeyman or signing a UFA to a long term expensive contract: No.

Improve the team by trading a couple of assets for a early-mid 20's RFA status player who can grow with the core: Yes.

No moves just to make moves.

Exactly. It takes a little bit of finesse. You need to be mindful of the long term cap to ensure that we have the cap to re-sign out core prospects in the future and still add to the team to be able to support them.

But you can do both you can target some guys like Hoffman on short term deals or guys with a few years left on their contracts via trades that won't cost significant assets. Maybe you make a big splash for a young high impact player that can grow with the team.

There is a lot of very viable ways to make this team good while our #1 prospect pool is still in their ELCs and Kopi, Doughty, Petersen, etc... Are still filling crucial roles. It doesn't have to be all or nothing. Its okay to miss out on a few lottery picks.

 

[tbrown33]

Feel pretty strongly the team to target this offseason is Tampa. I dont think Sergachev is unrealistic, and the first round pick is obviously on the table. We could also probably get a forward in a package too - I think they’ll be desperate.

I get that they dont want to deal him, but I dont know what else they can do with their backs up against the cap wall by a steep margin and all those NTC and NMCs. There’s a really good fit for a deal here.

 

[SFKingshomer]

Feel pretty strongly the team to target this offseason is Tampa. I dont think Sergachev is unrealistic, and the first round pick is obviously on the table. We could also probably get a forward in a package too - I think they’ll be desperate.

I get that they dont want to deal him, but I dont know what else they can do with their backs up against the cap wall by a steep margin and all those NTC and NMCs. There’s a really good fit for a deal here.

Players have pride and will usually waive and it’s not like their guys are complete cap dumps. I think Sergachev will stay pending someone overpaying for him.

 

[tbrown33]

Players have pride and will usually waive and it’s not like their guys are complete cap dumps. I think Sergachev will stay pending someone overpaying for him.

I am not so sure any of those guys would waive. Why would any of them willingly leave? They’ve got it made over there. And I’m sure they feel they’ve earned the right to stay. It’s in their contracts after all.

 

[SFKingshomer]

You will see a lot of pick swaps and teams select based on need rather than BPA. I think the Kings will move the pick.

 

[johnjm22]

Last season's available UFA Cs were Cody Eakin, Turris, Craig Smith. Mikko Koivu, who retired early season. Not one of those guys is even a f***ing seat filler. This year's are krejci, stepan, stastny, and then getzlaf like Koivu imo, not going anywhere.

Trade Kopitar for assets and sign Cody Eakin to be a veteran leader in his stead is some dark era bullshit not even dave taylor would do.

And veterans don't want to go to rebuilding teams.

It's so hard to get UFA veteran centers, that Lombardi could only get guys coming off potentially career ending injures:

Handzus
McCauly

In McCauly's case that injury did end his career.

Handzus was:
30 years old.
Hadn't played hockey in a year.
Coming off potentially career ending knee surgery.

Kings signed him for 4 years at 6.5M per (in today's money), with a full NMC.

Only reason Handzus signed here was because Dean had to give him an insanely risky deal that nobody else would.

That's how hard it is to find veteran centers via UFA.

 

[LAKings88]

It's time to play the kids.

Turcotte, Byfield, Kaliyev, and Kupari, should all be on the team next year.

Thomas and Fagemo should push too.

Non of these prospects are fresh out of the draft. All have some seasoning behind them.

I'm not saying hand them spots but these guys should be looked at long and hard at camp.

The team is stale as it gets. I do not want another season of Iaffalo Kopi Brown as the top line.

Place holders are what they are and just aren't needed anymore:
Out of Lizotte, Lemieux, Grundstrom, Wagner, Luff, AA, and Moore, the only one I care about is Moore. One of Grundstrom or Lemieux at least bring physicality. Keep them as an extra I guess.

Excess:
Wagner, Luff, Lizotte, Frk, MacDermiad (Just don't care add them to a trade if possible.)

Free Agency:
Hamilton or Landeskog are the only solid pieces. Doubtful either leave. Hamilton will likely need an overpayment to come to LA. Don't think he is worth 10 million a year.

Trade market:
Colorado has excess defenders. Maybe Philly. I don't think they get an established guy. It will be like a Timmons or Sanheim type of prospect imho.

Kings top assets to move I think are Kupari, #1, and Turcotte.

Turcotte depends on the price. I.E. a Byram type player coming in return.

Leadership:
Kopi Brown and Doughty are all solid leaders. So much goes on off ice we don't see. I have no problem with them at all. I do think it sucks that these three great Kings could be a big part of other teams at this point in their careers and could find more success elsewhere. They chose the money and to stay with the team so it doesn't really matter in the long run. I do think the Kings can get a lot for Doughty but they would need at least three legit pieces back and someone one can eat some of his minutes. He is our Bourque tho. A HOFer not easy to replace. Kopi is the greatest King of all time period. Let him retire a King if that's what he wants. He has three solid years left. You still need vets to guide the youth even if handing it off. The new era needs to start now. Ottawa, for all its faults, at least has an entertaining team to watch that is building comradery. Kinda hoping for that in LA next year.

Identity:
Colorado, Tampa, and Vegas are the current blueprint. They need speed and skill couple with drive to win and swagger. It's not a difficult formula but need to plug in the right pieces.

Given the lack of UFAs available I say again play the kids. I expect Blake to add some kind of piece this summer via trade, either a LHD or scorer.

This is the lineup I want to see without that traded piece currently:

Kempe Kopitar Kaliyev
Iaffalo Vilardi Andersson
Kupari Byfield Brown
Moore JAD Grundstrom
Lemieux

*Turcotte (Injury call up)
**AA (If resigned, take one of Grundstrom or Lemieux out)
***Fagemo (Could he be a better fit than Kupari?)
**** Thomas(Could he make JAD expendable?)

Anderson Doughty
Bjornfot Walker
??? Roy
Maata

(Clague, Durzi, Strand, Moreverare)

I still think Kupari, and the #1 are the best chips that won't cripple the future in a move based on the return. Turcotte is the player that other teams may covet.

I can see LA Packaging JAD/Kupari/#1 for a potential target.

 

[KINGS17]

And veterans don't want to go to rebuilding teams.

It's so hard to get UFA veteran centers, that Lombardi could only get guys coming off potentially career ending injures:

Handzus
McCauly

In McCauly's case that injury did end his career.

Handzus was:
30 years old.
Hadn't played hockey in a year.
Coming off potentially career ending knee surgery.

Kings signed him for 4 years at 6.5M per (in today's money), with a full NMC.

Only reason Handzus signed here was because Dean had to give him an insanely risky deal that nobody else would.

That's how hard it is to find veteran centers via UFA.

Agree, this is why Dean overpaid for Handzus. It wasn't really a risk for Dean though, because he knew Handzus was a "bridge player".

 

[Steve Zissou]

Only reason Handzus signed here was because Dean had to give him an insanely risky deal that nobody else would.

I remember seeing this image of Zus when he was traded here and thinking... this big dude looks like he's fast as greased lightning.

If the Oilers troll (on page 1) wanted to really get in the jab that Brad F*cking Stuart was a good soldier for us by shutting his mouth and playing hockey, he should have used Zus as an example. Stuart was f*cking miserable here the moment he got here, almost akin to Jeff Carter's brief stint in Lumbus.

Don't these crazy sports fans have Twitter to troll professional athletes?

 

[kilowatt]

Last season's available UFA Cs were Cody Eakin, Turris, Craig Smith. Mikko Koivu, who retired early season. Not one of those guys is even a f***ing seat filler. This year's are krejci, stepan, stastny, and then getzlaf like Koivu imo, not going anywhere.

Trade Kopitar for assets and sign Cody Eakin to be a veteran leader in his stead is some dark era bullshit not even dave taylor would do.

Even if there was some mythical top-tier number one center UFA, why the f*** would they choose LA?

 

[MBH]

#2C is not a problem for us. We have Kopitar, Byfield, Turcotte, Vilardi, JAD, etc... Three of those guys should be able to do an excellent job filling the top 3 center roles in the very near future. Potentially as soon as next year if one of them not named Kopitar takes a big step forward this off-season. Maybe it takes another year for that to happen tho, that's fine.

Or let's say we do make an Eichel trade which I'm on board with as long as his health checks out and we don't include Byfield (I think even w/o including Byfield we can beat any other teams offer). If we do that our center depth is likely the best in the league.

Just don't see center depth as a problem...

Our D core has some issues but Doughty fills the toughest spot. Bjornfot/Anderson appear to be solid top four guys. We have some additional nice prospects as well to move for upgrades if we choose.

We don't have to fill all our holes through UFA. We can also scoop some guys with Trades and the cap space we have allows for that as well.

2C is absolutely a problem.
So is 3C.
Vilardi might look like it for 10 games and then look like he belongs in Ontario for a month.
Byfield is not ready to be a 2 or 3C. Neither is Turcotte. Neither is Kupari. Neither is JAD.
It's going to take years of patience until Vilardi/Tucrotte/Byfield are your guys.


And the defense is nowhere near good enough, either.
And what do we really know about Cal Petersen?

Rebuilds take time.

 

[Rusty Batch]

2C is absolutely a problem.
So is 3C.
Vilardi might look like it for 10 games and then look like he belongs in Ontario for a month.
Byfield is not ready to be a 2 or 3C. Neither is Turcotte. Neither is Kupari. Neither is JAD.
It's going to take years of patience until Vilardi/Tucrotte/Byfield are your guys.


And the defense is nowhere near good enough, either.
And what do we really know about Cal Petersen?

Rebuilds take time.

If you think it will take years for any one of Byfield/Vilardi/Turcotte to assume a #2C role and then one of the other two to assume a #3C role then man you must think we did a terrible job drafting.

These are very high pedigree Center prospects with at least one year of pro experience under their belts. I fully expect this group of players to be filling these roles next year. And I also expect some growing pains in those roles. But they will learn rapidly on the job and unless they are busts there absolutely should be an expectation that two of those three can adequately fill a #2C and #3C role to start the 22/23 season. I mean that is low expectations for top 5 picks with multiple years of development under their belts.

 

[Legionnaire]

If you think it will take years for any one of Byfield/Vilardi/Turcotte to assume a #2C role and then one of the other two to assume a #3C role then man you must think we did a terrible job drafting.

These are very high pedigree Center prospects with at least one year of pro experience under their belts. I fully expect this group of players to be filling these roles next year. And I also expect some growing pains in those roles. But they will learn rapidly on the job and unless they are busts there absolutely should be an expectation that two of those three can adequately fill a #2C and #3C role to start the 22/23 season. I mean that is low expectations for top 5 picks with multiple years of development under their belts.

Kopitar didn't start in the NHL until he was 20 and the same with Malkin. Were those two poor prospects?

I don't understand this new attitude that some of you have developed. You know, the one where if a prospect doesn't excel at 18, 19 or even 20 they are busts. It makes no sense.

Most of us Kings fans have seen how rushing players can damage their development and nothing has changed since the 90's.

Brown struggled mightily in his first season at 18, and if it weren't for the lockout and his year in the A, he never would have found his offensive game and would have ended up nothing but a 3rd liner.

A good prospect, is a good prospect - even if it takes 5 years to develop like it did the Sedins (and so many other players)

 

[MBH]

If you think it will take years for any one of Byfield/Vilardi/Turcotte to assume a #2C role and then one of the other two to assume a #3C role then man you must think we did a terrible job drafting.

These are very high pedigree Center prospects with at least one year of pro experience under their belts. I fully expect this group of players to be filling these roles next year. And I also expect some growing pains in those roles. But they will learn rapidly on the job and unless they are busts there absolutely should be an expectation that two of those three can adequately fill a #2C and #3C role to start the 22/23 season. I mean that is low expectations for top 5 picks with multiple years of development under their belts.

I think the Kings have done a great job drafting.
But Vilardi... he's going to need at least 1-2 years to grow into a consistent, reliable top 3C. Kid hasn't played a full season in forever.
I think Byfield could be the best player in the draft. But I've always thought he was going to be a guy who developed slower.

It's one thing to PLAY as the 2C and 3C.
It's another thing to LEAD a team somewhere as a 2C and 3C.

And I think it's going to take some time.

Not only that, you've got 5 defensemen who belong on the third pairing and only 1 who belongs on a top pairing.

You cane tell yourself you're going to turn it around next year by signing RNH and... Martinez or whoever you're keen on.
I just don't see it.

 

[apocalypse]

No. You don't mortgage the future to acquire one or two star players that can "turn the team around". Blake would be wise to develop the farm system he has now, ignoring any demands from Doughty. If LA's not developing fast enough and Doughty wants out, trade him at the '22 deadline and get a good defensive prospect for him.

A trade to acquire a star player would involve too many of LA's farm players. Look at it: to get Eichel (whom we don't need), would require at least Byfield, Kaliyev/Turcotte, and a 1st. That leaves LA with only a couple B prospects left and LA is thin on wing as it is. And is Vilardi and Kopitar going to lead us to the promised land? I don't know. LA needs Byfield and Turcotte (for the wing) and all of our other wing talent. Let the team develop. It's going to take a couple of years, but we'll be better in the long run for it.

If we follow Doughty's system of growth, you can expect to never round out our top 6 and to have glaring holes everywhere. After all, how many of our prospects will actually pan out? 80%? 90%? You gotta figure that some of our prospects won't make it to the NHL and the way that Blake is running the team and rushing our prospects, some of them won't make it either (Byfield?) Blake is rushing our prospects and we're the ones that have to suffer for it. Give the team time to grow. Bring in some veteran forwards. Take your time.

I want this team to be a contender in a couple of years, but I'm afraid that Blake is going to piss it all away. No, he shouldn't cave to Drew. If Drew doesn't like it, let him go to a "contender". See ya! Fill the spot with a lesser Drew and build a solid defensive core.

 

[apocalypse]

If you think it will take years for any one of Byfield/Vilardi/Turcotte to assume a #2C role and then one of the other two to assume a #3C role then man you must think we did a terrible job drafting.

These are very high pedigree Center prospects with at least one year of pro experience under their belts. I fully expect this group of players to be filling these roles next year. And I also expect some growing pains in those roles. But they will learn rapidly on the job and unless they are busts there absolutely should be an expectation that two of those three can adequately fill a #2C and #3C role to start the 22/23 season. I mean that is low expectations for top 5 picks with multiple years of development under their belts.

How do you dislike a post?

 

[Rusty Batch]

How do you dislike a post?

I was wondering the same thing.

 

[Rusty Batch]

Kopitar didn't start in the NHL until he was 20 and the same with Malkin. Were those two poor prospects?

I don't understand this new attitude that some of you have developed. You know, the one where if a prospect doesn't excel at 18, 19 or even 20 they are busts. It makes no sense.

Most of us Kings fans have seen how rushing players can damage their development and nothing has changed since the 90's.

Brown struggled mightily in his first season at 18, and if it weren't for the lockout and his year in the A, he never would have found his offensive game and would have ended up nothing but a 3rd liner.

A good prospect, is a good prospect - even if it takes 5 years to develop like it did the Sedins (and so many other players)

My position has little to do with prospect timelines and much more to do with salary cap and taking advantage of ELCs.
I don't really care about the ultra conservative overripening view of prospect development that many fans have. I disagree with your statements on it obviously. And you will find random examples of it to justify your view on it anyways. (But to use Kopitar as your first example is hilarious considering he was 19 his rookie year and already arguably the best player on his NHL team...)

The idea is that if you can put a good roster around a bunch of ELC players that will very likely exceed the values of their contracts then you certainly should. That's how teams win Stanley cups. The fact that we still have Doughty and Kopitar here is great because it fills arguably the toughest positions #1C and #1D. We also have a #1G in Petersen. That's a great start...

It's up to Blake to figure out the best way to take advantage of our asserts and cap space to put a good team together.

We absolutely should not "mortgage the future" or whatever other buzz words the people on here use when they even think about someone suggesting trying to win lol.

Some of you have to stop thinking so Binary where it's either tank or go all in....

I think it's smart and strategic to try to win now and I think we can do that without going absolutely all in.