News Article: Doughty "I just want to win Cups..."

[SlimCharles]

Zach Parise, Ryan Suter, Brad Richards, Zdeno Chara, Brian Rafalski,Anton Stralman.

It does happen.

Doughty is better than all of those players by a mile. It's true.

 

[johnjm22]

UFA-to-be Kovalchuk got first round and second round draftees, Johnny Oduya, and a 1st. UFA-to-be Hossa got Christensen, Angelo Esposito, Colby Armstrong, and a 1st. In retrospect most of those prospects were busts, but that's often the case; is it really hard to believe Doughty would bring a haul?

You're proving my point. Kovalchuk and Hossa got very little.

Here's what those trades actually are:

To Devils:
Ilya Kovalchuk
Anssi Salmela
2nd round pick (#38-Jonathon Merrill)

To Thrashers:
Niclas Bergfors
Patrice Cormier
Johnny Oduya
2010 1st round pick (#24-Kevin Hayes)
2010 2nd round pick (#54-Justin Holl)

So 3 dime-a-dozen players, a late 1st, and a late 2nd. AND Atlanta had to send a high 2nd back to NJ.


To Thrashers:
Colby Armstrong
Erik Christensen
Angelo Esposito (Already in decline. Not a highly regarded prospect at this point)
2008 1st round pick (#29-Daultan Leveille)

To Penguins:
Pascal Dupuis
Marian Hossa

So 2 dime-a-dozen roster players, a bust/reclamation project and a late 1st.

You could argue that Doughty has more value than Hossa/Kovalchuk did, or that Waddell is a clown, but UFA-to-be DD still won't garner much more in a trade.

 

[KingsFan7824]

Zach Parise, Ryan Suter, Brad Richards, Zdeno Chara, Brian Rafalski,Anton Stralman.

It does happen.

1) Parise - NJ finished tied for 7th overall, only a couple points from a top 5 record, and eventually got to the Final the year he left.
2) Suter - Nashville finished 5th overall, and eventually got to the 2nd round the year he left.
3) Richards - Dallas finished 2 points behind Chicago for the 8th seed, so they tried making the playoffs.
4) Chara - Ottawa finished 2nd overall in the league the year he left.
5) Rafalski - NJ finished tied for 5th overall, and won their division, the year he left.
6) Stralman - the Rangers are the Rangers, they were trying to win, and got to the Final, the year he left.

It happens, but look when it happens. If the Kings have a top 10 record with an unsigned Doughty at the 2019 deadline, then maybe Doughty walks for nothing.

 

[The Tikkanen]

1) Parise - NJ finished tied for 7th overall, only a couple points from a top 5 record, and eventually got to the Final the year he left.
2) Suter - Nashville finished 5th overall, and eventually got to the 2nd round the year he left.
3) Richards - Dallas finished 2 points behind Chicago for the 8th seed, so they tried making the playoffs.
4) Chara - Ottawa finished 2nd overall in the league the year he left.
5) Rafalski - NJ finished tied for 5th overall, and won their division, the year he left.
6) Stralman - the Rangers are the Rangers, they were trying to win, and got to the Final, the year he left.

It happens, but look when it happens. If the Kings have a top 10 record with an unsigned Doughty at the 2019 deadline, then maybe Doughty walks for nothing.

It happens for other NHL teams, it does not work for the LA Kings if you look at their history of trading players like Doughty. Not only do they lose, the prospects stink, the draft picks flop and the Kings sink to the bottom of the toilet. Meanwhile the teams that acquire these King players go on to enjoy lots of deep playoff runs.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

You're proving my point. Kovalchuk and Hossa got very little.

Here's what those trades actually are:

To Devils:
Ilya Kovalchuk
Anssi Salmela
2nd round pick (#38-Jonathon Merrill)

To Thrashers:
Niclas Bergfors
Patrice Cormier
Johnny Oduya
2010 1st round pick (#24-Kevin Hayes)
2010 2nd round pick (#54-Justin Holl)

So 3 dime-a-dozen players, a late 1st, and a late 2nd. AND Atlanta had to send a high 2nd back to NJ.


To Thrashers:
Colby Armstrong
Erik Christensen
Angelo Esposito (Already in decline. Not a highly regarded prospect at this point)
2008 1st round pick (#29-Daultan Leveille)

To Penguins:
Pascal Dupuis
Marian Hossa

So 2 dime-a-dozen roster players, a bust/reclamation project and a late 1st.

You could argue that Doughty has more value than Hossa/Kovalchuk did, or that Waddell is a clown, but UFA-to-be DD still won't garner much more in a trade.

My point was that you have the benefit of hindsight on those. Colby Armstrong was seen as east coast Dustin Brown at that point. Christensen had the hands and potential, Esposito was the 'steal' of the draft (that one I'll grant was always questionable). Bergfors was pretty highly regarded as a 'safe' guy too, Cormier was a physical nutcase. In retrospect they look like absolute garbage, and a Doughty 'haul' could turn out the same way--but to suggest he's not worthy of 3-4 high profile assets is what I have issue with. Edit: yeah, I'll never disagree that Waddell is a clown too

 

[The Gabe Blade]

I mean, Kopitar has been 1-3 in the league in forward skater minutes for quite a while. Saying his condiitioning isn't the best is a stretch. Edit: wait, we're talking about DOUGHTY? That's even funnier.

Also the idea of judging a player's health by looking at him is a bad science to say it kindly.

Its not so much about Doughty today as Doughty in the years to come. You don't think he is not going to want a 10 year contract? At 38, a guy who is commanding the money that he will and doesn't work out and only is working with his youth and natural ability today will be the basis for the money he earns then. Simply stating that someone can skate high minutes doesn't mean they can't be better with more upper body strength. Would his slap shots not be harder, faster with more upper body strength? Would he not win the physical battles in front of the net more with more upper body strength?

*I should edit my opinion on his condition......I meant when he came into camp. I often felt at the beginning of seasons that he wasn't in shape at camp. He does play high minutes, but I always felt it was more of a struggle in early part of the season.

 

[johnjm22]

Colby Armstrong was seen as east coast Dustin Brown at that point. Christensen had the hands and potential, Esposito was the 'steal' of the draft (that one I'll grant was always questionable). Bergfors was pretty highly regarded as a 'safe' guy too, Cormier was a physical nutcase.

I think you're overstating how well regarded these players were at the time of the trades.

Espisito was in his 3 straight year of production decline in the juniors. That's almost unheard of in junior. He was no longer regarded as a high end prospect. As I recall he was considered a reclamation project at that point.

Christensen was a 6.0 prospect on HF. An average player that was good in the shoot out.

Armstrong was a 6.5A prospect on HF. At the time he was in his 3rd NHL season, and despite showing promise in his rookie year hadn't done much sense. He was a bottom 6 player at that point that was good defensively.

Nothing special about Bergfors at the time. Another guy that put up ~50pts the AHL and looked like he might be serviceable NHL player. These guys are a dime a dozen.

By 2010, Cormier hadn't advanced much in the Q. He was a mediocre prospect. A 6.0D on HF.


All of these guys were dime-a-dozen players/prospects at the time of these trades. There not much different than the likes of Kempe/Brodz/Shore/Amadio now terms of value.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Its not so much about Doughty today as Doughty in the years to come. You don't think he is not going to want a 10 year contract? At 38, a guy who is commanding the money that he will and doesn't work out and only is working with his youth and natural ability today will be the basis for the money he earns then. Simply stating that someone can skate high minutes doesn't mean they can't be better with more upper body strength. Would his slap shots not be harder, faster with more upper body strength? Would he not win the physical battles in front of the net more with more upper body strength?

*I should edit my opinion on his condition......I meant when he came into camp. I often felt at the beginning of seasons that he wasn't in shape at camp. He does play high minutes, but I always felt it was more of a struggle in early part of the season.

What star/superstar players can you think of that are physical specimens, though? Ever seen Malkin/Ovechkin with shirts off? I'm with you that better is better flat out--who wouldn't want to see Drew show up in amazing looking shape for once--and as a guy in my 30s I know damn well how it feels to have a much harder time getting in shape and recovering, but Drew's game is built on his IQ and I think it will age well.

I think you're overstating how well regarded these players were at the time of the trades.

Espisito was in his 3 straight year of production decline in the juniors. That's almost unheard of in junior. He was no longer regarded as a high end prospect. As I recall he was considered a reclamation project at that point.

Christensen was a 6.0 prospect on HF. An average player that was good in the shoot out.

Armstrong was a 6.5A prospect on HF. At the time he was in his 3rd NHL season, and despite showing promise in his rookie year hadn't done much sense. He was a bottom 6 player at that point that was good defensively.

Nothing special about Bergfors at the time. Another guy that put up ~50pts the AHL and looked like he might be serviceable NHL player. These guys are a dime a dozen.

By 2010, Cormier hadn't advanced much in the Q. He was a mediocre prospect. A 6.0D on HF.


All of these guys were dime-a-dozen players/prospects at the time of these trades. There not much different than the likes of Kempe/Brodz/Shore/Amadio now terms of value.

I'll have to agree to disagree a bit on their value, then.

And beyond that, Doughty isn't a deadline rental at this point, and I can't think of much of a precedent for a 30-minute-a-game top-3 in the game d-man with years on his deal than Pronger, which was Lupul (28 goals 53 pts), Smid (highly regarded up and coming d-man), 2 1sts, and a 2nd. Obviously with less years on his deal Drew isn't getting exactly that, but it's closer to that than the rental packages imo.

 

[KingsFan7824]

It happens for other NHL teams, it does not work for the LA Kings if you look at their history of trading players like Doughty. Not only do they lose, the prospects stink, the draft picks flop and the Kings sink to the bottom of the toilet. Meanwhile the teams that acquire these King players go on to enjoy lots of deep playoff runs.

Most UFA's to be, no matter how good they are, don't go for full value. Although, I'll say again, the Kings got a pretty good deal for Blake in a non-cap world.

If Doughty wants to go, still unsigned at the 2019 trade deadline, and the Kings are out of the playoff picture, they will trade him for whatever they can get. Good deal or not. It makes no sense at that point to let him walk for nothing a few months later. If, however, the Kings are a top 10 team at the 2019 deadline, they won't trade him, and then Doughty may in fact walk for nothing like Parise, Chara, etc.

 

[johnjm22]

And beyond that, Doughty isn't a deadline rental at this point, and I can't think of much of a precedent for a 30-minute-a-game top-3 in the game d-man with years on his deal than Pronger, which was Lupul (28 goals 53 pts), Smid (highly regarded up and coming d-man), 2 1sts, and a 2nd. Obviously with less years on his deal Drew isn't getting exactly that, but it's closer to that than the rental packages imo.

I was primarily talking about UFA-to-be Doughty, but even at 2 years left his return won't be all that great IMO.

I agree Pronger did get a very nice return in terms of value, but he's not a comparable to Doughty right now because of his contract situation.

Also think that were 12 years into the cap era now, and teams are placing higher value now on futures and young players than at any point in NHL history.

 

[tsanuri]

Its not so much about Doughty today as Doughty in the years to come. You don't think he is not going to want a 10 year contract? At 38, a guy who is commanding the money that he will and doesn't work out and only is working with his youth and natural ability today will be the basis for the money he earns then. Simply stating that someone can skate high minutes doesn't mean they can't be better with more upper body strength. Would his slap shots not be harder, faster with more upper body strength? Would he not win the physical battles in front of the net more with more upper body strength?

*I should edit my opinion on his condition......I meant when he came into camp. I often felt at the beginning of seasons that he wasn't in shape at camp. He does play high minutes, but I always felt it was more of a struggle in early part of the season.

I'm just going to address one thing. He can ask for a 10 year contract all he wants and will get laughed at for doing so. The team won't accept it, the league won't accept it. There's this little thing called a CBA. And it limits the term to 8 years on the team you play for and 7 for any other team.

 

[SettlementRichie10]

Zach Parise, Ryan Suter, Brad Richards, Zdeno Chara, Brian Rafalski,Anton Stralman.

It does happen.

Doughty's value around the league, among coaches and GMs, is far more than the players listed here.

Doughty is within the same tier as Karlsson, Crosby, etc. -- a true gamebreaking player that can (and has) turned an organization around on a dime.

It's no coincidence the Kings made the playoffs for the first time in seven years during his sophomore season. They were still puttering along with a young Kopitar and Brown. It was Doughty (and the emergence of Quick) that truly turned the team around.

Players of that magnitude simply don't get to free agency. The closest modern comparable is Kovalchuk (in his prime), and even then, Doughty carries much more value.

 

[sinister6000]

Doughty For Alex Pieterangelo would be a good deal.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Doughty For Alex Pieterangelo would be a good deal.

It certainly would be a great deal, for St. Louis.

 

[KingsFan7824]

It's no coincidence the Kings made the playoffs for the first time in seven years during his sophomore season. They were still puttering along with a young Kopitar and Brown. It was Doughty (and the emergence of Quick) that truly turned the team around.

Everything was accelerated when they knew they were getting Doughty. They got Stoll, Greene, Williams, Scuderi, and Smyth all within about a calendar year of drafting him. There were a lot of factors that made the Kings turn a corner, but getting him was the the jump start the engine needed.

 

[The Tikkanen]

What star/superstar players can you think of that are physical specimens, though? Ever seen Malkin/Ovechkin with shirts off? I'm with you that better is better flat out--who wouldn't want to see Drew show up in amazing looking shape for once--and as a guy in my 30s I know damn well how it feels to have a much harder time getting in shape and recovering, but Drew's game is built on his IQ and I think it will age well.



I'll have to agree to disagree a bit on their value, then.

And beyond that, Doughty isn't a deadline rental at this point, and I can't think of much of a precedent for a 30-minute-a-game top-3 in the game d-man with years on his deal than Pronger, which was Lupul (28 goals 53 pts), Smid (highly regarded up and coming d-man), 2 1sts, and a 2nd. Obviously with less years on his deal Drew isn't getting exactly that, but it's closer to that than the rental packages imo.

Ovechkin finally leaned out this summer. His lower body looks like an NHL player, his upper body looked like a college senior. I agree with Matt13 that eventually Doughty will have to pay full attention to diet and exercise but he's been gifted as a hockey player so he doesn't have to be shredded to be elite. For all of us over 30 you know changes come, that doesn't avoid any man including Drew.

 

[KINGS17]

I think it is a 50/50 proposition Doughty will stay with the Kings. I don't think the Kings will be contenders over the next few seasons, and if he truly wants to get paid and win cups there are better options available to him than the Kings.

The Kings top offensive performers either are or will be on the wrong side of 30 years of age. The trend for the Kings is down and I don't see it getting turned around any time soon. Had they made the tough decision and traded Kopitar in the summer prior to his Selke season they could have reloaded with Doughty as the centerpiece of the franchise.

Rob Blake cannot afford to lose Doughty for nothing. I don't see Doughty being traded anytime soon, but the longer Blake waits the more Doughty's trade value will drop. If the Kings are barely in the playoffs or out of the playoffs at the deadline this coming season I think the trade should be made then as it will be when Doughty's value should be at its highest in the remaining time on his current contract.

There are likely 4-5 teams which would covet Doughty and the Kings should try to get them in a bidding war. Chief among those teams would be Toronto and Edmonton, followed by Tampa Bay and maybe Dallas.

In any trade for Doughty the Kings should be looking for at least one young established NHL star, a top prospect and two first round picks. So if we were looking at Toronto I would say Marner/Nylander, Liljegren, and two first round picks would get it done.

I would also keep in mind if the Kings trade Doughty it's time for the rebuild and they can afford to take on a bad contract in a trade for Doughty. That might increase the number of potential trade partners.

I think this run is over and it's time to look to the future. I know AEG and Robitaille want to squeeze every nickel out of the ghosts of past success and cups, but F that line of thinking. It's the type of thinking that made the Kings franchise a futile failure for 45 years. My concern going forward is the Kings don't have the strategic thinking necessary in the front office to get back to being one of the top teams in the NHL.

 

[SettlementRichie10]

I think it is a 50/50 proposition Doughty will stay with the Kings. I don't think the Kings will be contenders over the next few seasons, and if he truly wants to get paid and win cups there are better options available to him than the Kings.

The Kings top offensive performers either are or will be on the wrong side of 30 years of age. The trend for the Kings is down and I don't see it getting turned around any time soon. Had they made the tough decision and traded Kopitar in the summer prior to his Selke season they could have reloaded with Doughty as the centerpiece of the franchise.

Rob Blake cannot afford to lose Doughty for nothing. I don't see Doughty being traded anytime soon, but the longer Blake waits the more Doughty's trade value will drop. If the Kings are barely in the playoffs or out of the playoffs at the deadline this coming season I think the trade should be made then as it will be when Doughty's value should be at its highest in the remaining time on his current contract.

There are likely 4-5 teams which would covet Doughty and the Kings should try to get them in a bidding war. Chief among those teams would be Toronto and Edmonton, followed by Tampa Bay and maybe Dallas.

In any trade for Doughty the Kings should be looking for at least one young established NHL star, a top prospect and two first round picks. So if we were looking at Toronto I would say Marner/Nylander, Liljegren, and two first round picks would get it done.

I would also keep in mind if the Kings trade Doughty it's time for the rebuild and they can afford to take on a bad contract in a trade for Doughty. That might increase the number of potential trade partners.

I think this run is over and it's time to look to the future. I know AEG and Robitaille want to squeeze every nickel out of the ghosts of past success and cups, but F that line of thinking. It's the type of thinking that made the Kings franchise a futile failure for 45 years. My concern going forward is the Kings don't have the strategic thinking necessary in the front office to get back to being one of the top teams in the NHL.

Agreed with all of this (though I still think the notion of trading Kopitar in 2015 is absurd; no GM on planet earth would have done that).

Marner, Liljegren, and two firsts is a proposal I've put out there in the past. That would be a good trade for both sides.

I would trade Carter, too, and see if there's any interest whatsoever for Kopitar if we take on a bad contract in return.

Buyout Gaborik, too. Full rebuild.

 

[AlphaBravo]

I think it is a 50/50 proposition Doughty will stay with the Kings. I don't think the Kings will be contenders over the next few seasons, and if he truly wants to get paid and win cups there are better options available to him than the Kings.

The Kings top offensive performers either are or will be on the wrong side of 30 years of age. The trend for the Kings is down and I don't see it getting turned around any time soon. Had they made the tough decision and traded Kopitar in the summer prior to his Selke season they could have reloaded with Doughty as the centerpiece of the franchise.

Rob Blake cannot afford to lose Doughty for nothing. I don't see Doughty being traded anytime soon, but the longer Blake waits the more Doughty's trade value will drop. If the Kings are barely in the playoffs or out of the playoffs at the deadline this coming season I think the trade should be made then as it will be when Doughty's value should be at its highest in the remaining time on his current contract.

There are likely 4-5 teams which would covet Doughty and the Kings should try to get them in a bidding war. Chief among those teams would be Toronto and Edmonton, followed by Tampa Bay and maybe Dallas.

In any trade for Doughty the Kings should be looking for at least one young established NHL star, a top prospect and two first round picks. So if we were looking at Toronto I would say Marner/Nylander, Liljegren, and two first round picks would get it done.

I would also keep in mind if the Kings trade Doughty it's time for the rebuild and they can afford to take on a bad contract in a trade for Doughty. That might increase the number of potential trade partners.

I think this run is over and it's time to look to the future. I know AEG and Robitaille want to squeeze every nickel out of the ghosts of past success and cups, but F that line of thinking. It's the type of thinking that made the Kings franchise a futile failure for 45 years. My concern going forward is the Kings don't have the strategic thinking necessary in the front office to get back to being one of the top teams in the NHL.

Trading Kopitar in 2015 could not have even been an option for two reasons: 1) the team won the cup a year ago and there is no way they could justify trading their consistent 60-70 point no 1 center; and 2) trading Kopitar means a full blown rebuild because its nearly impossible to sign or trade for a no. 1 center-- you can only draft one.

Also, as amazing as Doughty is, he will not fetch Nylander/Marner, a top D prospect and 2 firsts. If you took out the 2 firsts then it's more likely.

 

[TruKingFan]

Agreed with all of this (though I still think the notion of trading Kopitar in 2015 is absurd; no GM on planet earth would have done that).

Marner, Liljegren, and two firsts is a proposal I've put out there in the past. That would be a good trade for both sides.

I would trade Carter, too, and see if there's any interest whatsoever for Kopitar if we take on a bad contract in return.

Buyout Gaborik, too. Full rebuild.

Something K17 can't seem to accept.

 

[TruKingFan]

Trading Kopitar in 2015 could not have even been an option for two reasons: 1) the team won the cup a year ago and there is no way they could justify trading their consistent 60-70 point no 1 center; and 2) trading Kopitar means a full blown rebuild because its nearly impossible to sign or trade for a no. 1 center-- you can only draft one.

Also, as amazing as Doughty is, he will not fetch Nylander/Marner, a top D prospect and 2 firsts. If you took out the 2 firsts then it's more likely.

Stop trying to be reasonable and actually make any sense!
K17's credibility is predicated upon the Kings continued sucking.
it's totally not out of the realm of possibility that the Kings turn it around this year. Heck, I'd bet on it. Will it result in a Cup? Maybe/maybe not. But we gotta play the games first.

 

[KINGS17]

Agreed with all of this (though I still think the notion of trading Kopitar in 2015 is absurd; no GM on planet earth would have done that).

Marner, Liljegren, and two firsts is a proposal I've put out there in the past. That would be a good trade for both sides.

I would trade Carter, too, and see if there's any interest whatsoever for Kopitar if we take on a bad contract in return.

Buyout Gaborik, too. Full rebuild.

In the summer of 2015 Kopitar was coming off a season where he scored 16 goals, and 48 assists, with only 134 shots on goal. The Kings had missed the playoffs after winning the cup in 2014.

Despite coming off his first down season he was still highly regarded around the NHL. Kopitar had one year remaining on his deal, and was going to become overpaid. It was the perfect time to trade him.

 

[KINGS17]

Stop trying to be reasonable and actually make any sense!
K17's credibility is predicated upon the Kings continued sucking.
it's totally not out of the realm of possibility that the Kings turn it around this year. Heck, I'd bet on it. Will it result in a Cup? Maybe/maybe not. But we gotta play the games first.

I'm fine with my credibility. I recommended patience during the 2011-12 season when most here wanted Dean Lombardi fired. I thought the Kings were poised to become a top team in the NHL with some moves, and they had the assets to make the moves.

Now the Kings are poised to miss the playoffs or be eliminated in the first round for the foreseeable future.

Why don't you let us know which five of the eight teams in the Pacific Division you think the Kings will outperform this season? Surely you can do better than maybe/maybe not.

No **** they haven't played the games yet? Really? I guess that's why they call it a prediction.

 

[Bandit]

In the summer of 2015 Kopitar was coming off a season where he scored 16 goals, and 48 assists, with only 134 shots on goal. The Kings had missed the playoffs after winning the cup in 2014.

Despite coming off his first down season he was still highly regarded around the NHL. Kopitar had one year remaining on his deal, and was going to become overpaid. It was the perfect time to trade him.

In NHL 17 maybe. No GM would ever consider that, period. You're talking like the kid who says how the world should work instead of how it actually works. It's great to be idealistic, but if you're expecting the cable company to give you a fair price on your bill instead of bending you over, you're going to have a bad time.

 

[KINGS17]

In NHL 17 maybe. No GM would ever consider that, period. You're talking like the kid who says how the world should work instead of how it actually works. It's great to be idealistic, but if you're expecting the cable company to give you a fair price on your bill instead of bending you over, you're going to have a bad time.

This is like saying the only choice was to give Kopitar the 8-year, $80M contract. There is always a choice.