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[Micklebot]

you really think age played a part in Hoffmans "down" season this year... really? truly?

how many posts did the guy hit as well?

At some point, you stop counting the posts as bad luck, and accept that it's likely a symptom of where he tends to shoot when given a chance. Hoffman always tries to pick the corners, so he'll hit a lot of posts.

 

[Micklebot]

So you're basically saying that Boucher had a better option (ability), than playing Ceci the second most TOI, among D men, for his first two seasons as coach.

Who would than have been?

I'd argue spreading the mins around more evenly might have helped everyone. Some of the bottom pair guys might play a bit better if they were getting more consistent mins rather than getting cold on the bench, and Ceci certainly could benefit from having his mins dialed back.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

So you're basically saying that Boucher had a better option (ability), than playing Ceci the second most TOI, among D men, for his first two seasons as coach.

Who would than have been?

I always thought that Karlsson should be getting all the other teams top lines.. all the time... we have the best d man in the league... he can play those tough minutes... this conversation has been had.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

At some point, you stop counting the posts as bad luck, and accept that it's likely a symptom of where he tends to shoot when given a chance. Hoffman always tries to pick the corners, so he'll hit a lot of posts.

look at how small the posts are lol. they can just as easily go in as go out.

 

[Micklebot]

I always thought that Karlsson should be getting all the other teams top lines.. all the time... we have the best d man in the league... he can play those tough minutes... this conversation has been had.

Karlsson was pretty bad to start the year. In a vacuum, maybe it works, but when you consider how he was skating for 2 thirds of the season, it would have been even worst than it was.

 

[Micklebot]

look at how small the posts are lol. they can just as easily go in as go out.

Not exactly, there's a goalie that has an impact. The shots that could have gone in had they been half an inch to the right may have hit the goalie on that trajectory. This isn't a 50/50 situation. Beyond that, nobody counts the goals he scores that also hit the post. If he hit 16 posts this year, 8 went in and 8 stayed out, he's likely beating the odds by a fair bit when you factor in the goalie.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

I always thought that Karlsson should be getting all the other teams top lines.. all the time... we have the best d man in the league... he can play those tough minutes... this conversation has been had.

So play the Senators most offensive D man, in a shutdown role, having him spend the bulk of his TOI defending, and clearing the D zone.

Would you also suggest he be shifted to the 2nd PP unit as well?

 

[Micklebot]

So play the Senators most offensive D man, in a shutdown role, having him spend the bulk of his TOI defending, and clearing the D zone.

Would you also suggest he be shifted to the 2nd PP unit as well?

For years Lidstrom was the Wings best offensive Dman by far, and he played the shutdown role. Keith often played the shutdown role in Chicago during his peak. You may have noticed they both have multiple cup rings from that period. The nice thing is if you put your best guys out against theirs, when you win the battle, you put their guys defending instead of attacking. Heck, we played Karlsson against the oppositions top lines a fair bit last year and it worked tremendously.

There's nothing wrong with giving you're top offensive guy offensive mins to maximize his output, but there's also nothing wrong with giving him a more defensive role if he can handle it.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

There's nothing wrong with giving you're top offensive guy offensive mins to maximize his output, but there's also nothing wrong with giving him a more defensive role if he can handle it.

If there's a knock against EK65s overall game, it's been his defensive game.

Tell me I'm wrong.

 

[Engineer]

If there's a knock against EK65s overall game, it's been his defensive game.

Tell me I'm wrong.

Really, that’s the strawman you’re going to argue? Is that really what your brain processed in that post?

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

If there's a knock against EK65s overall game, it's been his defensive game.

Tell me I'm wrong.

From 1 year ago (top 10 in the NHL) .. I don't have a picture from this year but I know Karlsson led the team in these categories this year .. on one leg most of the year

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

EK65, in yesterday's Media scrum/interview/press confernce said that his relationship with owner Eugene Melnyk and the gm, Pierre Dorion, is good. ( as reported in today's paper(s) )

“It’s very unfortunate that the season that we had came at the time that I am in my contract, that’s the business part of things. They handled their business and I handled mine. That’s just part of it. It’s something that I haven’t gone through before, it’s a new experience and it’s not very pleasant. It’s something that happens for a lot of people and not only me. I think on that aspect of things (his relationship with the team) things haven’t changed.
We still have a lot of respect for each other and whatever went down is part of the business. That’s all that it was. I never took anything personally and I don’t think that they did either.”


There are a lot of people, who post in these threads, who have maintained for a while that there is not a good relation ship between EK65 and the Senators Owner and GM... and whenever Peirre Dorion has publicly stated that his, and EM relationship with EK65 is good, and they get along well ..... a lot of you who post in hear claim that PD is a liar, and say that he has to say that, and that they can read between the lines and it does not mean it's true and yada yada yada...

So, now , is EK65 also a liar? Is anyone telling the truth when they they go on the record in the media? Is everyone connected to the Senators, from the Owner down to the Zamboni driver all liars?

 

[Micklebot]

If there's a knock against EK65s overall game, it's been his defensive game.

Tell me I'm wrong.

Certainly this year it was an issue. Last year, it was not. Perhaps his injury recovery had something to do with it, but he was tremendous defensively last year during the playoffs, so clearly when given the role and motivation, he's capable.

 

[BondraTime]

Count takes everything said in media with 100% accuracy. News at 7.

God, they must make a killing off you on the shopping network

 

[Micklebot]

EK65, in yesterday's Media scrum/interview/press confernce said that his relationship with owner Eugene Melnyk and the gm, Pierre Dorion, is good. ( as reported in today's paper(s) )

“It’s very unfortunate that the season that we had came at the time that I am in my contract, that’s the business part of things. They handled their business and I handled mine. That’s just part of it. It’s something that I haven’t gone through before, it’s a new experience and it’s not very pleasant. It’s something that happens for a lot of people and not only me. I think on that aspect of things (his relationship with the team) things haven’t changed.
We still have a lot of respect for each other and whatever went down is part of the business. That’s all that it was. I never took anything personally and I don’t think that they did either.”


There are a lot of people, who post in these threads, who have maintained for a while that there is not a good relation ship between EK65 and the Senators Owner and GM... and whenever Peirre Dorion has publicly stated that his, and EM relationship with EK65 is good, and they get along well ..... a lot of you who post in hear claim that PD is a liar, and say that he has to say that, and that they can read between the lines and it does not mean it's true and yada yada yada...

So, now , is EK65 also a liar? Is anyone telling the truth when they they go on the record in the media? Is everyone connected to the Senators, from the Owner down to the Zamboni driver all liars?

Who ever suggested there wasn't a good relation ship between Karlsson and the GM? First I've heard about that.

 

[Pierre from Orleans]

EK65, in yesterday's Media scrum/interview/press confernce said that his relationship with owner Eugene Melnyk and the gm, Pierre Dorion, is good. ( as reported in today's paper(s) )

“It’s very unfortunate that the season that we had came at the time that I am in my contract, that’s the business part of things. They handled their business and I handled mine. That’s just part of it. It’s something that I haven’t gone through before, it’s a new experience and it’s not very pleasant. It’s something that happens for a lot of people and not only me. I think on that aspect of things (his relationship with the team) things haven’t changed.
We still have a lot of respect for each other and whatever went down is part of the business. That’s all that it was. I never took anything personally and I don’t think that they did either.”


There are a lot of people, who post in these threads, who have maintained for a while that there is not a good relation ship between EK65 and the Senators Owner and GM... and whenever Peirre Dorion has publicly stated that his, and EM relationship with EK65 is good, and they get along well ..... a lot of you who post in hear claim that PD is a liar, and say that he has to say that, and that they can read between the lines and it does not mean it's true and yada yada yada...

So, now , is EK65 also a liar? Is anyone telling the truth when they they go on the record in the media? Is everyone connected to the Senators, from the Owner down to the Zamboni driver all liars?

Seriously do you believe everything that's said to the media? You can't be this obtuse

 

[WadeRedden]

Exactly.

Hofman is like Jekyll & Hyde. He's at the point in his career where he absolutely need more Jekyll and less Hyde in his game. He's not a kid anymore. He needs to show a complete game, especially with that big contract he has now.

The Senators are getting great bang for their buck on Hoffman's contract.

As for his overall game, yes it has some holes. But frankly, I couldn't care less. As long as he's putting up the numbers he puts up every year I'll take the bad that comes along with it.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

When someone posts very close to the same thing or at least the same argument over and over and continually asks for published sources of information and always seemingly ignores the sources and worse does not learn... Even Pavlov's dogs would stop responding.

 

[Bileur]

I'm suggesting that it's worth considering that over an 8 year period we may find ourselves looking for around 8 million for Chabot, Brown, Duchene, Stone, etc... I don't want to start an argument about not signing EK, rather it's worth considering how much a massive long term contract could handicap us.

Chicago is a cautionary tale.

EK at 10 million or so is a risk I think we take.

I certainly understand your point of view then.

I’d raise a few thoughts and would like to hear your comments (all of this is IMO):

1) Given the turmoil surrounding the team this season and the doubts raised about the owner’s commitment to winning (whether warranted or not it is a public perception) it is more risky to not at least attempt to sign EK to a long term deal at this point in our franchise history than it is to let him walk. Not doing so might make us an unattractive option going forward.

2) While earmarking a huge amount of cap in one player is a risk, it also offers the security of locking down one of the best in the league. It’s an absolute joke that EK hasn’t gotten more consideration for the Hart trophy in his career. I’d argue no other skater is as impactful as he is.

If the market has set Subban’s value at 9, and Doughty is expecting over 10. Karlsson can expect the same. So in other words I don’t think paying top value for a top asset is a handicap, what is a handicap is paying top value for middling assets (Phaneuf, Ryan, Toews, Seabrook). Given Karlsson’s track record I’m not too worried about this. Even if his skating eventually drops off, I’m confident he can continue to be one of the most productive defensemen offensively and he proved last year that he can be very effective in his own end even without mobility.

3) A bird in the hand is better than two in the bush. While I appreciate the idea of setting aside money to keep guys like Stone, Duchene, and Chabot, none of these guys have the potential to be as impactful as Karlsson.

4) Finally, Chicago’s cautionary tale is relevant but so is Ottawa’s. I remember having discussions eerily similar to this one on HF 12 years ago.

We had another defenseman with unique abilities in the NHL who was also coming off an injury. We offered him a decent deal in order to have money set aside for guys like Redden and Phillips. He signed what was then a massive deal in Boston and not only went on to earn every penny but win a Norris, a cup and have a HOF career. Redden was off the team before the end of Chara’s first contract in Boston and out of the league before the beginning of his renewal.

People couldn’t wrap their minds around a different guy like Chara being consistently at the top of the league and were scared off by the « new nhl ». It’s similar with Karlsson, we have a guy who is very non traditional and many have difficulty seeing him maintaining his excellence (just like they had difficulty seeing him achieving excellence and being more than a « puck mover »). Karlsson, like Chara, has proven people wrong his entire career and will show defensemen can play a different way and win.

When you have this kind of real superstar, you do what you have to do to sign him and give him the tools to win.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

Karlsson was pretty bad to start the year. In a vacuum, maybe it works, but when you consider how he was skating for 2 thirds of the season, it would have been even worst than it was.

this isn't a one season thing.. ceci was getting those minutes last year to. and playing horribly. Karlsson was better than ceci this year lol.. doesn't matter what the matchups would have been

 

[Burrowsaurus]

So play the Senators most offensive D man, in a shutdown role, having him spend the bulk of his TOI defending, and clearing the D zone.

Would you also suggest he be shifted to the 2nd PP unit as well?

you do know karlsson is in fact BETTER than most top forwards in the league... you don't NEED to be stuck in your own zone getting pummeled to be considered "good at defence" with karlsson on the ice the other teams best lines will struggle even getting the puck in the first place... the puck will leave our zone quicker... under control... and we will spend time int he other teams zone with THEIR BEST PLAYERS ON THE ICE. THERE IS EXTREEEEEEEMMMMMMEEE VALUE IN THAT.

ask yourself this... would you rather have the other teams best lines spending the bulk of their TOI in their own zone defending, or in our zone racking up shot after shot after shot after shot after shot after shot after shot aftyer shot aftyer shot after shot after shot after shot after shot after shot after shot after shot after shot sfafter shot after after shot after shot after shot aftyer shot aftyer shot after shot after shot after shot after shot after shot after shot after shot after shot sfafter shot after shot after shot aftyer shot aftyer shot after shot after shot after shot after shot after shot after shot after shot after shot sfafter shot after after shot after shot after shot aftyer shot aftyer shot after shot after shot after shot after shot after shot after shot after shot after shot sfafter shot after shot aftyer shot after shot after shot after shot after shot after shot after shot after shot after shot sfafter shot after after shot after shot after shot aftyer 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do you honestly think Ceci does a good job BECAUSE he gets hemmed in his own zone..

 

[Burrowsaurus]

Not exactly, there's a goalie that has an impact. The shots that could have gone in had they been half an inch to the right may have hit the goalie on that trajectory. This isn't a 50/50 situation. Beyond that, nobody counts the goals he scores that also hit the post. If he hit 16 posts this year, 8 went in and 8 stayed out, he's likely beating the odds by a fair bit when you factor in the goalie.

yeah you could very well be right and I could very well be overrating the value of hitting the post.. but all the being said... Hoffman just had a preeeetttyyy decent seaso, and my main point was to say that age was not taking its toll on him.. as his season was still very good and still totally worth the 5 million bucks

 

[Sensung]

I certainly understand your point of view then.

I’d raise a few thoughts and would like to hear your comments (all of this is IMO):

1) Given the turmoil surrounding the team this season and the doubts raised about the owner’s commitment to winning (whether warranted or not it is a public perception) it is more risky to not at least attempt to sign EK to a long term deal at this point in our franchise history than it is to let him walk. Not doing so might make us an unattractive option going forward.

2) While earnarking a huge amount of cap in one player is a risk, it also offers the security of locking down one of the best in the league. It’s an absolute joke that EK hasn’t gotten more consideration for the Hart trophy in his career. I’d argue no other skater is as impactful as he is.

If the market has set Subban’s value at 9, and Doughty is expecting over 10. Karlsson can expect the same. So in other words I don’t think paying top value for a top asset is a handicap, what is a handicap is paying top value for middling assets (Phaneuf, Ryan, Toews, Seabrook). Given Karlsson’s track record I’m not too worried about this. Even if his skating eventually drops off, I’m confident he can continue to be one of the most productive defensemen offensively and he proved last year that he can be very effective in his own leg even without mobility.

3) A bird in the hand is better than two in the bush. While I appreciate the idea of setting aside money to keep guys like Stone, Duchene, and Chabot, none of these guys have the potential to be as impactful as Karlsson.

4) Finally, Chicago’s cautionary tale is relevant but so is Ottawa’s. I remember having discussions eerily similar to this one on HF 12 years ago.

We had another defenseman with unique abilities in the NHL who was also coming off an injury. We offered him a decent deal in order to have money set aside for guys like Redden and Phillips. He signed what was then a massive deal in Boston and not only went on to earn every penny but win a Norris, a cup and have a HOF career. Redden was off the team before the end of Chara’s first contract in Boston and out of the league before the beginning of his renewal.

People couldn’t wrap their minds around a different guy like Chara being consistently at the top of the league and were scared off by the « new nhl ». It’s similar with Karlsson, we have a guy who is very non traditional and many have difficulty seeing him maintaining his excellence (just like they had difficulty seeing him achieving excellence and being more than a « puck mover »). Karlsson, like Chara, has proven people wrong his entire career and will show defensemen can play a different way and win.

When you have this kind of real superstar, you do what you have to do to sign him and give him the tools to win.

Fantastic post!!!

 

[FolignoQuantumLeap]

yeah you could very well be right and I could very well be overrating the value of hitting the post.. but all the being said... Hoffman just had a preeeetttyyy decent seaso, and my main point was to say that age was not taking its toll on him.. as his season was still very good and still totally worth the 5 million bucks

Hoffman also had a low shooting percentage season by his standards as well. He was only about 8.6% when he was around an 11% career shooter before.

 

[Micklebot]

this isn't a one season thing.. ceci was getting those minutes last year to. and playing horribly. Karlsson was better than ceci this year lol.. doesn't matter what the matchups would have been

What I'm getting at is giving Karlsson those mins this year doesn't really fix anything. We'd be just as bad, because frankly he was terrible defensively most of the year due to his skating. I also think putting him in that role reduces his offensive output this season more than other years because he wasn't an automatic zone exit most of the year due to mobility issues. Typical year, yes, Karlsson getting the shutdown role is fine. This year, I don't really think it was in the teams best interest, though it's not like there were any good options.