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[Burrowsaurus]

What I'm getting at is giving Karlsson those mins this year doesn't really fix anything. We'd be just as bad, because frankly he was terrible defensively most of the year due to his skating. I also think putting him in that role reduces his offensive output this season more than other years because he wasn't an automatic zone exit most of the year due to mobility issues. Typical year, yes, Karlsson getting the shutdown role is fine. This year, I don't really think it was in the teams best interest, though it's not like there were any good options.

fair, disagree but fair, but what im getting at is it DOESNT MATTER how spectacular karlsson plays... Boucher still thinks, thought, and will continue to think that Ceci is a number 1 , 2 ,3 whatever you want to call it, shutdown d man.. and that is a problem for us. my second point is that he has been so bad against other teams best lines that with any serious effort to find a replacement... it would be harder for us to find a worse option for that role than it would be to find an equal or better option who might even be cheaper than what ceci will likely cost us.

Note: I said WITH SERIOUS EFFORT. I am not saying grab joe blow off the street and hes better.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

From 1 year ago (top 10 in the NHL) .. I don't have a picture from this year but I know Karlsson led the team in these categories this year .. on one leg most of the year

thing is people don't read that as defensive stats... they read those as OFFENSIVE stats.. which blows my mind. a player isn't defensive unless they they are stuck in their own zone for long period of time (WHICH GUESS WHAT?!? THEYRE STUCK IN THEIR OWN ZONE FOR A LONG PERIOD OF TIME BECAUSE THEYVE LIKELY MADE SERIES OF DEFENSIVE MISTAKES)

 

[Sensung]

thing is people don't read that as defensive stats... they read those as OFFENSIVE stats.. which blows my mind. a player isn't defensive unless they they are stuck in their own zone for long period of time (WHICH GUESS WHAT?!? THEYRE STUCK IN THEIR OWN ZONE FOR A LONG PERIOD OF TIME BECAUSE THEYVE LIKELY MADE SERIES OF DEFENSIVE MISTAKES)

Or they are paired with Dion, who is standing in front of the net crosschecking someone and doing nothing else to retrieve the puck.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

Or they are paired with Dion, who is standing in front of the net crosschecking someone and doing nothing else to retrieve the puck.

yes, either youre good, or your partner stinks, or your competition is too good for you

 

[BatherSeason]

Karlsson was pretty bad to start the year. In a vacuum, maybe it works, but when you consider how he was skating for 2 thirds of the season, it would have been even worst than it was.

Also consider WHO he was skating with. Spending the majority of your time on ice with Johnny Oduya doesn't help.

 

[BatherSeason]

So play the Senators most offensive D man, in a shutdown role, having him spend the bulk of his TOI defending, and clearing the D zone.

Would you also suggest he be shifted to the 2nd PP unit as well?

Why does the role need to be considered "shutdown", why not try to possess the puck more than the other team? Why in hockey do we just assume that everyone goes into a defensive shell when the other team's best players are on the ice and we just hope to "contain" them? Either way, the approach the Sens currently use is to throw Ceci on the ice against the opposition's top players, close out eyes and cross our fingers that we can survive the one minute shift. That approach is not and will not work.

 

[BatherSeason]

EK65, in yesterday's Media scrum/interview/press confernce said that his relationship with owner Eugene Melnyk and the gm, Pierre Dorion, is good. ( as reported in today's paper(s) )

“It’s very unfortunate that the season that we had came at the time that I am in my contract, that’s the business part of things. They handled their business and I handled mine. That’s just part of it. It’s something that I haven’t gone through before, it’s a new experience and it’s not very pleasant. It’s something that happens for a lot of people and not only me. I think on that aspect of things (his relationship with the team) things haven’t changed.
We still have a lot of respect for each other and whatever went down is part of the business. That’s all that it was. I never took anything personally and I don’t think that they did either.”


There are a lot of people, who post in these threads, who have maintained for a while that there is not a good relation ship between EK65 and the Senators Owner and GM... and whenever Peirre Dorion has publicly stated that his, and EM relationship with EK65 is good, and they get along well ..... a lot of you who post in hear claim that PD is a liar, and say that he has to say that, and that they can read between the lines and it does not mean it's true and yada yada yada...

So, now , is EK65 also a liar? Is anyone telling the truth when they they go on the record in the media? Is everyone connected to the Senators, from the Owner down to the Zamboni driver all liars?

This doesn't only happen in these threads. Wake up please. They have 3 jammed packed "Town Hall" meeting with season ticket holders. The number one issue on everyone's minds is the strained relationship between Karlsson and ownership. Quit blaming HFBoards.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

This doesn't only happen in these threads. Wake up please. They have 3 jammed packed "Town Hall" meeting with season ticket holders. The number one issue on everyone's minds is the strained relationship between Karlsson and ownership. Quit blaming HFBoards.

yeah I feel some people ONLY see this fanbase and team through HF boards

 

[BatherSeason]

What I'm getting at is giving Karlsson those mins this year doesn't really fix anything. We'd be just as bad, because frankly he was terrible defensively most of the year due to his skating. I also think putting him in that role reduces his offensive output this season more than other years because he wasn't an automatic zone exit most of the year due to mobility issues. Typical year, yes, Karlsson getting the shutdown role is fine. This year, I don't really think it was in the teams best interest, though it's not like there were any good options.

This was a major fail by the coaching staff. What could the coaching staff had done better to aid Karlsson is his recovery? Anything would have helped, instead the coaching staff did nothing. Certainly playing him with Johnny Oduya didn't help, certainly leaving him with Oduya for 50 plus games didn't help. Boucher made ZERO adjustments until it was too late. Maybe playing Karlsson with Chabot more often earlier in the season to aid in zone exits would have helped this team win more games, maybe trying anyone other than Oduya/Phaneuf could have helped. They didn't even try, they just assumed Karlsson would figure it out, and he did, once Oduya no longer played here.

 

[Micklebot]

yes, either youre good, or your partner stinks, or your competition is too good for you

I think Ceci's issue has typically been he's in over his head, and his partner stinks, at least as a match for him in that role.

You look at last year, and he actually did pretty decent in limited mins with Methot, while still playing in a fairly defensive role (~49 CF%, 51 SCF%, 56 HDCF% with 46.3% OZ starts) . Similarly, he did fairly well with Boro (49.7 CF%, 52 SCF%, 56 HDCF% with 38.4 OZ% starts), who I really think was playing well this year on a bit of a tangent, this year, again deployed fairly defensively.

Looking at the Phaneuf-Ceci pairing specifically, they were remarkably poor together. 39.63 CF% together this year. Ceci jumped to 46.43 CF% away from Phaneuf, which while still not great, is a pretty significant jump. Phaneuf saw a similar jump, albeit not as high, while with the sens, up to 45.81 CF% however, Phaneuf away from Ceci was typically deployed offensively, with Karlsson so it's not really a fair comparison.

With Phaneuf gone next year it will be interesting to see who Ceci is deployed with, and in what role. Here's how we closed out the season after trading Phaneuf:

Ceci with:	Chabot	Borowiecki	Harpur	Wolanin	Claesson	Oduya	Karlsson	Sieloff
TOI	154.62	148.32	108.92	74.6	29.02	13.62	4.9	1.07
CF	44.87	48.51	42.86	52.26	49.02	57.14	46.15	50
GF	35.71	50	28.57	60	0	na	0	na
SCF	50	51.94	36.45	52	47.83	70	37.5	100
HDCF	28.57	54.55	27.66	55.26	42.86	100	33.33	100
OZ	62.34	35.29	35.21	61.9	52.94	33.33	42.86	na

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Just my suspicion, but I suspect that he played with Chabot when the team was down and looking for offense (and Karlsson was out of the lineup). Numbers were solid with Boro, terrible with Chabot and Harpur. Wolanin is a pretty small sample, and likely pretty sheltered.

My guess is we have a second pair of Boro-Ceci next year. That will be fun should the pairing struggle.

 

[Ice-Tray]

I certainly understand your point of view then.

I’d raise a few thoughts and would like to hear your comments (all of this is IMO):

1) Given the turmoil surrounding the team this season and the doubts raised about the owner’s commitment to winning (whether warranted or not it is a public perception) it is more risky to not at least attempt to sign EK to a long term deal at this point in our franchise history than it is to let him walk. Not doing so might make us an unattractive option going forward.

2) While earnarking a huge amount of cap in one player is a risk, it also offers the security of locking down one of the best in the league. It’s an absolute joke that EK hasn’t gotten more consideration for the Hart trophy in his career. I’d argue no other skater is as impactful as he is.

If the market has set Subban’s value at 9, and Doughty is expecting over 10. Karlsson can expect the same. So in other words I don’t think paying top value for a top asset is a handicap, what is a handicap is paying top value for middling assets (Phaneuf, Ryan, Toews, Seabrook). Given Karlsson’s track record I’m not too worried about this. Even if his skating eventually drops off, I’m confident he can continue to be one of the most productive defensemen offensively and he proved last year that he can be very effective in his own leg even without mobility.

3) A bird in the hand is better than two in the bush. While I appreciate the idea of setting aside money to keep guys like Stone, Duchene, and Chabot, none of these guys have the potential to be as impactful as Karlsson.

4) Finally, Chicago’s cautionary tale is relevant but so is Ottawa’s. I remember having discussions eerily similar to this one on HF 12 years ago.

We had another defenseman with unique abilities in the NHL who was also coming off an injury. We offered him a decent deal in order to have money set aside for guys like Redden and Phillips. He signed what was then a massive deal in Boston and not only went on to earn every penny but win a Norris, a cup and have a HOF career. Redden was off the team before the end of Chara’s first contract in Boston and out of the league before the beginning of his renewal.

People couldn’t wrap their minds around a different guy like Chara being consistently at the top of the league and were scared off by the « new nhl ». It’s similar with Karlsson, we have a guy who is very non traditional and many have difficulty seeing him maintaining his excellence (just like they had difficulty seeing him achieving excellence and being more than a « puck mover »). Karlsson, like Chara, has proven people wrong his entire career and will show defensemen can play a different way and win.

When you have this kind of real superstar, you do what you have to do to sign him and give him the tools to win.

I agree with this, and I want him signed. After listening to EK at his locker clean out, and listening to Duchene, I think a deal will get done.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

This doesn't only happen in these threads. Wake up please. They have 3 jammed packed "Town Hall" meeting with season ticket holders. The number one issue on everyone's minds is the strained relationship between Karlsson and ownership. Quit blaming HFBoards.

How do you, or anyone, know that state of the "relationship" between EK65 and EM?

Don't cite unsubstantiated, speculative rumours as evidence.

 

[Wondercarrot]

How do you, or anyone, know that state of the "relationship" between EK65 and EM?

Don't cite unsubstantiated, speculative rumours as evidence.

do you know anyone in the city of ottawa? anyone at all?
have you ever spent time with a player from the team? ever?
have you ever spoken to anyone who has access to these people?

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Does anyone remember Karlsson's post game comments where he said something like ... "mistakes are going to happen and you can't dwell on it if someone is not in exactly the right spot , and it may not be any better being in that spot anyway" ?

 

[Micklebot]

Does anyone remember Karlsson's post game comments where he said something like ... "mistakes are going to happen and you can't dwell on it if someone is not in exactly the right spot , and it may not be any better being in that spot anyway" ?

Yeah, I remember that one. He was well out of position on a goal against, it was in the middle of The Slump™ if I recall.

 

[JD1]

you really think age played a part in Hoffmans "down" season this year... really? truly?

how many posts did the guy hit as well?

I didn't say I think it. I asked the question. but statiscally speaking ya he is at an age where regression sets in.

 

[The Lewler]

How do you, or anyone, know that state of the "relationship" between EK65 and EM?

Don't cite unsubstantiated, speculative rumours as evidence.

Do we even know if there is a relationship between EK65 and EM ?

What a ridiculous leap you just made. Source it.

 

[JD1]

I'd think it was a down year, personally. He still had ~ the same amount of points in a year where we sucked at scoring, and still showed exactly what gets him goals.

I think he's good for ~25 goals and 60 points a year for the duration of his contract. Having him on Duchene's line will help tremendously.

Our PP was catastrophically bad, that's not just on Hoffman. That's on the delivery.

I'd definitely move Ceci before Hoffman all things being equal, unfortunately we don't have the resources to plug someone in Ceci's place, as he shouldn't be there either. I'm not sure why we did this to Ceci under Boucher, he looked like a very promising offensive guy prior to being thrust into the ****house that is our Shutdown guy.

And I do believe that playing on the top line with Duchene and Dzingel/Ryan/Stone would help his production compared to Pageau and Pyatt.

I don't disagree with any of your reasoning here but the thing is all things aren't equal.

The odds of acquiring a winger or having someone step into a higher slot playing with Duchene and doing well are better than the odds of someone stepping up and playing Ceci's minutes or acquiring someone to play them.

I'm not a Hoffman fan but setting that aside for a minute.....acquiring atop RHD is not easy.....acquiring top 6 wingers is probably the easiest thing in hockey. Let me rephrase that. ...acquiring wingers is the easiest thing. Far easier to address a W shortcoming than a D, C or G shortcoming. Ceci is going to get a good raise so if there is money we need to move to apply it elsewhere I'd move Hoffman before I'd move Ceci. I think we'd get more in return for Ceci but I'd move Hoffman.

 

[aragorn]

Does anyone remember Karlsson's post game comments where he said something like ... "mistakes are going to happen and you can't dwell on it if someone is not in exactly the right spot , and it may not be any better being in that spot anyway" ?

I remember that as well & made me think that was more of a shot at the coach. Maybe this perceived strain is not between EK & EM but EK & GB. Personally, I could care less about the relationships between players & management or ownership, I just want them to be a better team & hopefully someday win a SC in my lifetime.

I still don't understand what people hope to get out of these town hall meetings, it's not like fans are all of a sudden going to be involved in all of the hockey operation decisions. Hopefully, it pushes EM to spend a little more on hockey operations & staff but who knows if that will produce a better product on the ice. Are people upset because the team sucks or because EM is an A-Hole? What do we expect the end result to be with all of this?

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

I remember that as well & made me think that was more of a shot at the coach. Maybe this perceived strain is not between EK & EM but EK & GB. Personally, I could care less about the relationships between players & management or ownership, I just want them to be a better team & hopefully someday win a SC in my lifetime.

I still don't understand what people hope to get out of these town hall meetings, it's not like fans are all of a sudden going to be involved in all of the hockey operation decisions. Hopefully, it pushes EM to spend a little more on hockey operations & staff but who knows if that will produce a better product on the ice. Are people upset because the team sucks or because EM is an A-Hole? What do we expect the end result to be with all of this?

Yeah, I remember that one. He was well out of position on a goal against, it was in the middle of The Slump™ if I recall.

He seemed frustrated. I took it like he was protecting someone else and essentially saying that being out of position according to what some one else thinks may not be out of position in every case .. I took it like he was saying lighten up on the minute details. I hope Karlsson speaks his mind openly and without reservation with Dorion in the coming days.

The town halls are all about season ticket sales imo. Trying to build confidence. Its a sales job

 

[Fandlauer]

Adios

 

[DaveMatthew]

Adios

The "Erik Karlsson is greedy and won't take less to help us build a winner" seeds are quickly being planted.

This whole repetitive "we will offer Karlsson a contract on July 1st" is a joke. They'll lowball him, he'll balk, Bruce Garrioch will report that they did everything they could, and he'll be traded somewhere for a terrible return alongside Ryan. We all know that's how this is ending.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

The "Erik Karlsson is greedy and won't take less to help us build a winner" seeds are quickly being planted.

This whole repetitive "we will offer Karlsson a contract on July 1st" is a joke. They'll lowball him, he'll balk, Bruce Garrioch will report that they did everything they could, and he'll be traded somewhere for a terrible return alongside Ryan. We all know that's how this is ending.

THAT. Or a contract really is coming because we’ve scared dorion into it which would be funny imagine they know his foot is f***ed and sign him and he’s just utter trash lmao

 

[The Lewler]

The "Erik Karlsson is greedy and won't take less to help us build a winner" seeds are quickly being planted.

This whole repetitive "we will offer Karlsson a contract on July 1st" is a joke. They'll lowball him, he'll balk, Bruce Garrioch will report that they did everything they could, and he'll be traded somewhere for a terrible return alongside Ryan. We all know that's how this is ending.

Or they have been brow beat into backing off this plan and as long as Karlsson doesn't ask for more than McDavid they will sign him.

 

[Langdon Alger]

Not optimistic Karlsson re-signs. Would not be surprised if he’s asked to move on. Why grab the puck if you think you’re staying? Just because they might still have him by July 1 and can offer him an extension doesn’t mean they will keep him.

Dorion saying he isn’t shopping him is a lie. Why listen to offers unless you’re thinking about moving him?

Maybe Karlsson knows Melnyk won’t give him what he feels he’s worth.

I’d be surprised if he’s in camp come September.