HF Habs: Doom & Gloom: The Outlet Thread

Milhouse40

Registered User
Aug 19, 2010
22,123
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I agree with you in principle. We're terrible at judging player development, just like we're clueless about other intangibles like leadership and culture. These qualities are huge in an athlete's progress, but because we can't see or count them, they get glossed over.

That said, you can only develop a player to the limits of his talent. Without elite talent, all the development and culture in the world won't create a contending hockey team. We haven't drafted a superstar in decades and – on the surface – we still haven't. The Habs look like they have an upcoming core of young, solid players who may make the playoffs but won't match up to the top contenders. Hopefully I'm wrong. Hopefully the scouts are smarter than us and Slafkovsky, Hutson, Dach, etc. are future stars who will make us eat crow in a few years. But until that happens, we've earned some pessimism.

It's not really about judging talents we're terrible at.....but it's letting the talent grow and not act like we know how a player will turn out after 1 or 2 seasons.

Of course, the last few managements were terrible at that.

Now we have a whole organization based on that and it's not only the staff, it's the whole environment.....it's actually that culture they are trying to create. A culture of improvement, every day, every shift, every minutes in the gym. They surrounds them with everything they need, from guys like Nicholas, Boucher to Chefs so they eat well. Everything is about performance and development.

We are 18 months into this new management not enough time to actually judge one prospect and there's a bunch of fans on the verge of losing it. Kind of early for those clamouring for rebuilding and patience.
 

Twisted Sinister

Living in Your Head Rent Free
Oct 8, 2014
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It's not really about judging talents we're terrible at.....but it's letting the talent grow and not act like we know how a player will turn out after 1 or 2 seasons.

Of course, the last few managements were terrible at that.

Now we have a whole organization based on that and it's not only the staff, it's the whole environment.....it's actually that culture they are trying to create. A culture of improvement, every day, every shift, every minutes in the gym. They surrounds them with everything they need, from guys like Nicholas, Boucher to Chefs so they eat well. Everything is about performance and development.

We are 18 months into this new management not enough time to actually judge one prospect and there's a bunch of fans on the verge of losing it. Kind of early for those clamouring for rebuilding and patience.

The purpose of rebuilding was to acquire talent, not two-way defensemen when we're already stacked on D. They're wasting the rebuild (in addition to f***ing up tanking in the first place) and turning us into Detroit 2.0.

But's it's ok. Keep stopping into this thread to wave Molson's pansy corporate shill flag like you're going to convince anyone.
 
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Gravity

Generational Poster
Feb 27, 2017
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In a Barred Spiral
75 is fine for a 1st line center providing you can do it more than once or twice in your career and you are good defensively.

The problem is way too many guys around here take a career year and make it the norm like Koivu hitting 75 points in 2006-2007 and then all of a sudden he was a 70 points player.

Consistency is key in this league specially for top 6 players. Guys like Skinner look good on paper but that's about it imo.
It makes him in the low tier 1C at 75 points (even if he's consistent).
 

Beer and Chips

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Feb 5, 2018
1,289
947
Where are guys getting they've lost faith in Slafkovsky? Hughes 1st thing he said about Slaf when he drafted him, was we didn't expect him to be the best player right away but rather 5 years from now. Furthermore the guy I was responding to, suggests that they've lost faith in Slaf's ability to be an impact player, which is silly, because, it again, was one of the deciding factors in drafting him in the first place. Watching him in the olympics and world championships clearly shows the type of "impact" he's capable of.



The reason Hughes doesn't bring up Slafkovsky in regards to being one of the offensive players that hab fans should immediately rely on, is because he himself, doesn't want Slafkovsky to be focusing in on that. It is part in parcel why they kept him up in the NHL in the first place.

Why did Canadiens' Slafkovsky stay in NHL? Kent Hughes gave some insight.

"He started by stating that development decisions are made case by case, specific to personalities and abilities, and that there’s no universal way to develop a player. It was a point he reiterated towards the end of his availibility, saying “development comes in many colours.”

Specific to the shades they’ve chosen for Slafkovsky, Hughes ventured into a deep-winded analogy of what it takes to undo certain habits in order to build new ones in a hockey environment, explaining that was the critical first step the Canadiens knew they’d have to embark on with the young Slovak, whose main challenge would be adapting to the North American game after exclusively playing the European one before arriving in Montreal."

Hughes said they’re working with Slafkovsky “to help him understand how he can be most successful in North America,” and explained that it was a step-by-step process to alter his muscle memory. He said that, over this first step, there’s been zero emphasis placed on the player’s production as a measure of his success."

“When we speak of Slaf, he needs to learn how to define his game,” Hughes said. “He has natural talent, and everyone sees it. He’s physically special, too. He’s so strong. For him, there are certain aspects of the game he needs to understand and add so he can become the best player possible.”

The other reasons Hughes kept Slafkovsky in Montreal were that he wanted to keep close tabs on him and wanted coach Martin St. Louis and director of development Adam Nicholas to oversee this critical stage of his development versus sending him to the AHL, where the emphasis would be more on scoring.

Hughes is continuously down playing emphasis on offensive production with Slafkovsky for developmental reasons, they know he's a project and patience is the key. It's bad enough they've lost important development time due to him only being able to play 39 games last year because of his injury.

This however in NO WAY suggest they've lost faith in their choice, or don't feel he'll have an offensive impact on this team or otherwise in the future.

The only thing annoying as you put it, is that this even has to be explained.

And here I have been thinking the AHL is the development league not the NHL.
 

NORiculous

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Jan 13, 2006
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Montreal
Where are guys getting they've lost faith in Slafkovsky? Hughes 1st thing he said about Slaf when he drafted him, was we didn't expect him to be the best player right away but rather 5 years from now. Furthermore the guy I was responding to, suggests that they've lost faith in Slaf's ability to be an impact player, which is silly, because, it again, was one of the deciding factors in drafting him in the first place. Watching him in the olympics and world championships clearly shows the type of "impact" he's capable of.



The reason Hughes doesn't bring up Slafkovsky in regards to being one of the offensive players that hab fans should immediately rely on, is because he himself, doesn't want Slafkovsky to be focusing in on that. It is part in parcel why they kept him up in the NHL in the first place.

Why did Canadiens' Slafkovsky stay in NHL? Kent Hughes gave some insight.

"He started by stating that development decisions are made case by case, specific to personalities and abilities, and that there’s no universal way to develop a player. It was a point he reiterated towards the end of his availibility, saying “development comes in many colours.”

Specific to the shades they’ve chosen for Slafkovsky, Hughes ventured into a deep-winded analogy of what it takes to undo certain habits in order to build new ones in a hockey environment, explaining that was the critical first step the Canadiens knew they’d have to embark on with the young Slovak, whose main challenge would be adapting to the North American game after exclusively playing the European one before arriving in Montreal."

Hughes said they’re working with Slafkovsky “to help him understand how he can be most successful in North America,” and explained that it was a step-by-step process to alter his muscle memory. He said that, over this first step, there’s been zero emphasis placed on the player’s production as a measure of his success."

“When we speak of Slaf, he needs to learn how to define his game,” Hughes said. “He has natural talent, and everyone sees it. He’s physically special, too. He’s so strong. For him, there are certain aspects of the game he needs to understand and add so he can become the best player possible.”

The other reasons Hughes kept Slafkovsky in Montreal were that he wanted to keep close tabs on him and wanted coach Martin St. Louis and director of development Adam Nicholas to oversee this critical stage of his development versus sending him to the AHL, where the emphasis would be more on scoring.

Hughes is continuously down playing emphasis on offensive production with Slafkovsky for developmental reasons, they know he's a project and patience is the key. It's bad enough they've lost important development time due to him only being able to play 39 games last year because of his injury.

This however in NO WAY suggest they've lost faith in their choice, or don't feel he'll have an offensive impact on this team or otherwise in the future.

The only thing annoying as you put it, is that this even has to be explained.

I think the injury was foreseeable because Slaf was in over his head. So it’s no excuse, IMO. A lot of people were saying it was going to happen and it was one of the reasons he needed to be sent down. Then it happened.

The last player the Habs wanted to “adapt” instead of focusing on scoring and offence was Drouin. I know a bunch of you will say Drouin was crap from the start, but that is BS.

However, it doesn’t mean it won’t go well for Slafkovsky… but kids need to learn to translate the offence and removing focus on one of the main reasons why someone is drafted #1 seem risky, at best.

I’m sure what they are working on is also very important though. I get that they don’t want to put extra pressure while he works on those things too. But let’s not overestimate natural talent. Slafkovsky, like everyone else, needs to work on offence too. Doing that at the AHL level would help him do both. St.Louis and Nicolas can follow him very closely in the AHL too. If the Canes could do it with Pyotyr Kochetkov that was in the KHL, should not be too hard to do it in Laval.
 
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MoneyManny

Registered User
Jun 28, 2021
657
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It's not because hou don't see the stars in the making that we don't have any.
Instant stars, typical Montreal.

Development is not a buzzword. You guys keep talking about tanking to win the cup.....yet 2 of that last 4 cup winners didn't tank, didn't drafted high to get instant stars. What they all have in common though....they developped good players within their organisation, something you haven't seen in Montreal for more than 15 years precisely because Fans wants instant stars and jump on the players before they even have 2 season under their belt.....you guys would have run MacKinnon out of town really fast. Suzuki has 66 points at his 4th season in the NHL, MacKinnon had 53 points.

But yeah Culture is a buzzword......for those who don't even know what they are talking about and keep saying ''Culture'' to criticize management.
Development is a buzzword because people like you seem to think that a coach's job is to polish turds. Development is ultimately a player's responsibility. Teams don't "develop" players, they give them opportunities to shine. Of course good direction and mentorship can always help somebody progress, but how do you explain a large majority of our ex-players not being any better anywhere else they play? I would even argue that Montreal has been a great place for players such as Danault to find their game. We always seem to gain value from reclamation projects.

It is a buzzword because it's massively used by all fan bases despite none of them being able to really explain anything about it or how it relates to players they're discussing.

Culture is also a buzzword for anyone NOT inside a NHL locker room. The only things we know about what's happening in there are rumors and hearsay in the media, how does any of us have enough information to discuss any of it without sounding like complete fools?

I don't want instant stars. I just wish the team could be patient. Why try to compete BEFORE any of the players have shown to be able to carry a contender on their backs? We can only work with what we know.
 

Twisted Sinister

Living in Your Head Rent Free
Oct 8, 2014
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Development is a buzzword because people like you seem to think that a coach's job is to polish turds. Development is ultimately a player's responsibility. Teams don't "develop" players, they give them opportunities to shine. Of course good direction and mentorship can always help somebody progress, but how do you explain a large majority of our ex-players not being any better anywhere else they play? I would even argue that Montreal has been a great place for players such as Danault to find their game. We always seem to gain value from reclamation projects.

It is a buzzword because it's massively used by all fan bases despite none of them being able to really explain anything about it or how it relates to players they're discussing.

Culture is also a buzzword for anyone NOT inside a NHL locker room. The only things we know about what's happening in there are rumors and hearsay in the media, how does any of us have enough information to discuss any of it without sounding like complete fools?

I don't want instant stars. I just wish the team could be patient. Why try to compete BEFORE any of the players have shown to be able to carry a contender on their backs? We can only work with what we know.

Holy moley, if development doesn't exist, Slaf is definitely in trouble.
 
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Grate n Colorful Oz

Hutson Hawk
Jun 12, 2007
35,310
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Development is a buzzword because people like you seem to think that a coach's job is to polish turds. Development is ultimately a player's responsibility. Teams don't "develop" players, they give them opportunities to shine. Of course good direction and mentorship can always help somebody progress, but how do you explain a large majority of our ex-players not being any better anywhere else they play? I would even argue that Montreal has been a great place for players such as Danault to find their game. We always seem to gain value from reclamation projects.

It is a buzzword because it's massively used by all fan bases despite none of them being able to really explain anything about it or how it relates to players they're discussing.

Culture is also a buzzword for anyone NOT inside a NHL locker room. The only things we know about what's happening in there are rumors and hearsay in the media, how does any of us have enough information to discuss any of it without sounding like complete fools?

I don't want instant stars. I just wish the team could be patient. Why try to compete BEFORE any of the players have shown to be able to carry a contender on their backs? We can only work with what we know.

Ever heard of developmental stages? 18 to 25 is when your executive brain develops the most. If you're in unfavorable developmental conditions inbetween 18 and 22-23, you'll fall behind the 8ball. It's a period of intense neuronal pruning in the prefrontal cortex and once the pruning is done, it is very hard to overcome defficiencies. It's also the part of the brain that does social inhibition and impulse control. What happens at that age is extremely important.

You can yaddi yadda about general ignorance all you want, but I know for a fact that an environment that doesn't nurture all that is being developed at that age will undoubtedly give bad results. That's why a big brother figure is very important, especially for young stars who will inevitably fall into a lot of trappings.
 

Gaylord Q Tinkledink

Registered User
Apr 29, 2018
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When this team is "ready" to be competitive they won't be able to make that big trade to acquire a proven, very good player, or keep adding a piece, or two at the deadline because the prospect pool will he that weak and they'll rely upon using picks, making the weak prospect pool even weaker and closing the window faster.
 

Belial

Registered User
Oct 22, 2014
26,142
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Montreal
When this team is "ready" to be competitive they won't be able to make that big trade to acquire a proven, very good player, or keep adding a piece, or two at the deadline because the prospect pool will he that weak and they'll rely upon using picks, making the weak prospect pool even weaker and closing the window faster.
Why would that be the case?
 

Twisted Sinister

Living in Your Head Rent Free
Oct 8, 2014
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Hey who knows maybe next year we can draft a ppg forward at 8th overall
Maybe next year Habs win the lottery and draft a G. lol

Nah, we'll draft whatever's the most useless. Let's see... *Checks notes*

Undersized 60-point forward.

Oh wait, we just traded for one of those.

*checks notes again*

Undersized 60-point forward.

WHY DOES IT KEEP SAYING THAT
 
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The Gr8 Dane

L'harceleur
Jan 19, 2018
11,215
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@Twisted Sinister Idk how you are so mad bro but keep fighting the good battle, I've given up im just rolling with the rebuild I mean I've asked for a rebuild for like 20 years so now that we actually have one im not gonna start crying that we can't have McDavid , gotta take what you can get man im just happy we are out of the non stop win now cycle molson implemented.

The win now battle for 8th spot for a decade will certainly settle in soon but in the meantime I am enjoying the rebuild and the tanking
 

Twisted Sinister

Living in Your Head Rent Free
Oct 8, 2014
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@Twisted Sinister Idk how you are so mad bro but keep fighting the good battle, I've given up im just rolling with the rebuild I mean I've asked for a rebuild for like 20 years so now that we actually have one im not gonna start crying that we can't have McDavid , gotta take what you can get man im just happy we are out of the non stop win now cycle molson implemented.

The win now battle for 8th spot for a decade will certainly settle in soon but in the meantime I am enjoying the rebuild and the tanking

If only we could tank properly instead of Marty St-Louis Gordon Bombaying us to random wins in January and management being on board with "winning for the culture."

To be honest, apathy has set in a little bit for me. It's taking effort to stay this toxic :D
 

Kobe Armstrong

Registered User
Jul 26, 2011
15,113
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For me, I think I did not expect HuGo to commit to a serious rebuild and I thought by this year we would be hoping to move up in the rankings instead of tanking again.

Maybe it's good for our future, and who knows what will happen if the team is healthy, but I thought we would be better than a bottom-5 roster at this point
 

SlafySZN

Registered User
May 21, 2022
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For me, I think I did not expect HuGo to commit to a serious rebuild and I thought by this year we would be hoping to move up in the rankings instead of tanking again.

Maybe it's good for our future, and who knows what will happen if the team is healthy, but I thought we would be better than a bottom-5 roster at this point
A rebuild is more than 1-2 years, it takes time. Especially for the habs since they have bad contracts in the lineup still, the players you draft have to arrive and it takes more than 2 years to make a big difference in the lineup.

When Molson spoke in an interview about the rebuild he named Ottawa, New-Jersey, etc… to say it takes years to be a good team again.

They’ll move up the rankings naturally at some point.
 

Schooner Guy

Registered User
Jun 23, 2006
13,244
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A rebuild is more than 1-2 years, it takes time. Especially for the habs since they have bad contracts in the lineup still, the players you draft have to arrive and it takes more than 2 years to make a big difference in the lineup.

When Molson spoke in an interview about the rebuild he named Ottawa, New-Jersey, etc… to say it takes years to be a good team again.

They’ll move up the rankings naturally at some point.
The worst thing an organization can do is put a timeframe on a rebuild. It often leads to taking shortcuts to speed things up like the Red Wings have done this year which will likely put them in no-man's land of mediocrity for many years.

Just let things happen organically. At some point the Bruins, Leafs, Lightning and Panthers will be long past their best before dates and over-ripe for the pickings.
 
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SlafySZN

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May 21, 2022
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The worst thing an organization can do is put a timeframe on a rebuild. It often leads to taking shortcuts to speed things up like the Red Wings have done this year which will likely put them in no-man's land of mediocrity for many years.

Just let things happen organically. At some point the Bruins, Leafs, Lightning and Panthers will be long past their best before dates and over-ripe for the pickings.
Exactly. Detroit is a good example, they have some good young pieces but they wanna go too fast with bringing some UFAs.
 
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