Dominik Hasek greatest goalie ever?

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

Most consistently/"dominatingly" hard to beat goalie that I've seen in 30 years as a hockey fan, for what that's worth. I also find it interesting that slightly wild, highly athletic goalies like Thomas, Smith, and Rinne seem to be dominating the modern game to a greater extent than more refined/composed/fundamental goalies like Price, Luongo, Miller, and even Lundqvist. Hasek coming over to North America basically "un-taught" the conventional wisdom of the "technically sound" hybrid/butterfly goalie, made popular by guys like Roy and Brodeur.

 

[Big Phil]

The general consensus on HF and most places is Hasek. Its beating a dead horse at this point.

I certainly don't think there is a "consensus" when it comes to Hasek. Some put him #1, but I've seen probably just as many, if not more, around here put Roy at #1. Not to be outdone is Sawchuk or Plante, both with good cases also. The other two in my mind are Hall and Brodeur but are more like #5-6 to me.

With Roy you can't underestimate the postseason success. No other goalie, not Hasek, can match him in those regards. He took the 1986 and 1993 Habs to the Cup. No one would have predicted either of those teams to win in the beginning of the season or even the beginning of the playoffs. Now, they were better than the Sabres teams Hasek played for, but not by a whole lot and if there is an example of a goalie carrying his team on his back to the Cup it is Roy. Thomas is the most recent example.

But, you can't ignore Hasek's regular seasons and how he was always the vocal point of the Sabres. He got into the head of players before they even shot. That counts for something.

So personally I still think the goalie controversy is very much up in the air where you can make a case for 2-3 different goalies.

 

[Ivan13]

Those Sabers teams weren't nearly as bad as some are trying to present them. Everyone knew their job on that team and they did it to a tee. Those Sabers teams were also clearly better defensivly than the pre 2001/2002 Avs IMHO and they've focused much more on defensive side of the game than Avs or Habs. You can compare them in terms of style to todays Yotes or Blues, while the Avs were more like Philly.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

Those Sabres teams weren't nearly as bad as some are trying to present them. Everyone new their job on that team and they did it to a tee. Those Sabres teams were also clearly better defensivly than the pre 2001/2002 Avs IMHO and they've focused much more on defensive side of the game than Avs or Habs. You can compare them in terms of style to todays Yotes or Blues, while the Avs were more like Philly.

Interesting comparisons, given that both teams would likely still consider their goalies their "MVPs" this season, and each of them could be described as very athletic and slightly "unconventional". You could have included Nashville as well (good coaching, players executing in roles, etc), like I suggested earlier - another athletic, slightly unconventional MVP goalie.

 

[TieClark]

Interesting comparisons, given that both teams would likely still consider their goalies their "MVPs" this season, and each of them could be described as very athletic and slightly "unconventional". You could have included Nashville as well (good coaching, players executing in roles, etc), like I suggested earlier - another athletic, slightly unconventional MVP goalie.

Brian Elliot is an MVP goalie now?

 

[Ivan13]

Brian Elliot is an MVP goalie now?

He didn't say that and I think it's pretty obvious what he meant with his post if you think about it for a little bit.

 

[sajmae]

Well I know that NHL is vastly superior to Czech league and KHL but still some facts.

First appearence in Czech league as 16 years old in 1981.
1982 U18 EJC Best Goaltender
1983 U20 WJC Best Goaltender
In 1983 as 18 years old started his first senior international game and is #1 goalie in Canada Cup 1984.
1986-1990 best goalie in Czech league
1987, 1989, 1990 best player in Czech league
1987, 1989 WC best goalie

In 2010 won Czech league as oldest player ever and is voted best player, best goalie and MVP of playoffs.
And in 2011 (30 years after his first senior start) was still starting goalie at arguably second best league in the world.

I know that most of you know this and it isn't that important but i think it should be mentioned.

 

[tombombadil]

Well I know that NHL is vastly superior to Czech league and KHL but still some facts.

First appearence in Czech league as 16 years old in 1981.
1982 U18 EJC Best Goaltender
1983 U20 WJC Best Goaltender
In 1983 as 18 years old started his first senior international game and is #1 goalie in Canada Cup 1984.
1986-1990 best goalie in Czech league
1987, 1989, 1990 best player in Czech league
1987, 1989 WC best goalie

In 2010 won Czech league as oldest player ever and is voted best player, best goalie and MVP of playoffs.
And in 2011 (30 years after his first senior start) was still starting goalie at arguably second best league in the world.

I know that most of you know this and it isn't that important but i think it should be mentioned.

i think it's important. One of the major knocks on Dom is longevity compared to the other top goalies. He has had a 30 year long career. Had he been able to get here earlier, he would have had an enormous NHL career, although his career save% would suffer, like Roy's did by playing in the 80's and early 90's.

I remember someone on HNIC saying that Roy finally had acheived one season (.925%) that was higher in that stat than Dom's career %. That always stuck out to me. Dom's career save% was higher at the time, as it dwindled with his last few years in the NHL. All the numbers we look at when rating goalies are team-affected, so you can argue either way, and it usually comes down to who you liked more. Personally, I don't think I'm able to make any kind of comparison between a modern-equipped goalie and the older greats. It's a different position in a lot of ways.

Roy and Hasek stand far and away as the first two great modern goalies. Brodeur is obviously the next one... and then we have the new guys.. man, some of them sure look good. I have to see a goalie be great for 5 years before I get too excited, because hot goalies come and go like crazy in this game. Lundqvist and Thomas meet my criteria, and round out my top 5 for modern guys. For what it's worth, Hasek is number 1. All the numbers, team accomplishments, longevity arguments aside, I look at it like this: Roy stopped winning Vezina's and being the man when Dom hit the scene. Marty didn't start winning them until Dom effectively left the scene due to age.

One thing on Stanley Cup rings, without having to use Chris Osgood as an example - I just use Hasek, himself. He was a better goalie in his playoff runs with the Sabres then he was as an older guy in Detroit. Teams win Cups.

 

[Gobo]

Roy's 3 Conn Smythes and established regular season success puts him ahead of Hasek for me.

And I just love Patty Roy.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Roy's 3 Conn Smythes and established regular season success puts him ahead of Hasek for me.

And I just love Patty Roy.

It's not just 3 Conn Smythes that he won. He really did have 5 "Smythe worthy" performances as I like to call them (1989 he was the easy choice if the Habs won the finals and 1996 he was an obvious second choice behind Sakic).

Taking away 1989, Roy was without a doubt a top 2 playoff performer on 4 Cup winners. Does any goalie in history come close to that? And Roy didn't play for a dynasty, either

 

[Canadiens1958]

Perhaps

It's not just 3 Conn Smythes that he won. He really did have 5 "Smythe worthy" performances as I like to call them (1989 he was the easy choice if the Habs won the finals and 1996 he was an obvious second choice behind Sakic).

Taking away 1989, Roy was without a doubt a top 2 playoff performer on 4 Cup winners. Does any goalie in history come close to that? And Roy didn't play for a dynasty, either

Perhaps Turk Broda or Alec Connell.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Perhaps Turk Broda or Alec Connell.

Good call on Broda. He's the only one you could possibly make an argument about I think, though he'd have tough competition from Ted Kennedy and Max Bentley.

Here is who the HHOF Awarded the "retroactive Conn Smythe" to in the 5 years Broda won Cups:

1942: Syl Apps
1947: Ted Kennedy
1948: Ted Kennedy
1949: Turk Broda
1951: Maurice Richard (from the losing team)

There are issues with the retroactive Smythes (one is that they are far too willing to give it to a forward on a losing team), but they are interesting.

Connell only won 2 Cups, so he's out

 

[quoipourquoi]

I remember someone on HNIC saying that Roy finally had acheived one season (.925%) that was higher in that stat than Dom's career %. That always stuck out to me.

That gets overstated because a career save percentage is a moving target.

Hasek's Career Save Percentage as of... (Roy's peak)
1994: .915 (.918)
1995: .920 (.918)
1996: .920 (.918)
1997: .922 (.923)
1998: .924 (.923)
1999: .926 (.923)
2000: .926 (.923)
2001: .925 (.923)
2002: .924 (.925)
2003: .924 (.925)


The fact that Roy's final two seasons (.925 and .920) rank as two of the three highest totals in his career are testament to the fact that Colorado's defensive system from 1995-2001 did him no statistical favors. They didn't tailor themselves to their strength in net; they used Roy as an insurance policy - not unlike Toronto with Joseph and Edmonton with Fuhr.

With Roy you can't underestimate the postseason success. No other goalie, not Hasek, can match him in those regards. He took the 1986 and 1993 Habs to the Cup. No one would have predicted either of those teams to win in the beginning of the season or even the beginning of the playoffs. Now, they were better than the Sabres teams Hasek played for, but not by a whole lot and if there is an example of a goalie carrying his team on his back to the Cup it is Roy.

I think the 1986, 1989, and 1993 Canadiens were better teams than the 1999 Sabres, but I don't think they necessarily played better in the playoffs, particularly considering Buffalo's Conference play.

Goals-Per-Game Regular Season, Playoffs (Differential)
1986 MTL: 4.13, 2.76 (-1.37)
1989 MTL: 3.94, 3.02 (-0.92)
1993 MTL: 3.88, 3.02 (-0.86)
1999 BUF: 2.52, 2.61 (+0.09)
1999 BUF (three rounds): 3.24 (+0.72)

Through the rounds they won, Buffalo generated more offense than any of Roy's three Montreal teams that made the finals - and they were the Dead Puck team. Hasek is still their best player, but it's hard for me to take the Buffalo was an AHL team argument seriously, but we see it so often. The 1986 Canadiens simply should not have won a Stanley Cup while scoring 2.76 goals-per-game in 1986. It's not a reasonable amount of goal support for a champion in that era.

Playoff GPG* of Champion (overtime not factored into numbers... I got lazy )
1976: 3.38
1977: 3.86
1978: 3.87
1979: 3.94
1980: 4.19
1981: 5.39
1982: 4.47
1983: 4.70
1984: 4.95
1985: 5.44
1986: 2.76
1987: 4.14
1988: 4.58
1989: 3.73 (3.94 before shooting on Roy in the Finals)
1990: 4.23
1991: 3.96
1992: 3.95
1993: 3.02
1994: 3.52
1995: 3.35
1996: 3.64

 

[shadow1]

Most talented? Yes. Greatest? It's hard to argue against three Conn Smythe trophies.

 

[perklunt]

Tretyak>Hashek>Roy

 

[kmad]

Most talented? Yes. Greatest? It's hard to argue against three Conn Smythe trophies.

Argue with six Vezinas, two Harts, two Pearsons and an Olympic MVP.

 

[Rhiessan71]

Argue with six Vezinas, two Harts, two Pearsons and an Olympic MVP.

No one is arguing against Hasek's regular season dominance.
What we are arguing is for Patrick Roy's playoff dominance.

Like I said up-thread, you want Venzina's, Harts and regular season dominance, it's not even close, you go with Hasek.
You want Cup rings, Conn Smythe's and playoff dominance, it's not even close, you go with Roy.


Let me put it another way...Roy had more playoff overtime wins than Hasek had total playoff wins in Buffalo.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

No one is arguing against Hasek's regular season dominance.
What we are arguing is for Patrick Roy's playoff dominance.

Like I said up-thread, you want Venzina's, Harts and regular season dominance, it's not even close, you go with Hasek.
You want Cup rings, Conn Smythe's and playoff dominance, it's not even close, you go with Roy.


Let me put it another way...Roy had more playoff overtime wins than Hasek had total playoff wins in Buffalo.

Wait, if Hasek is the "no-brainer" pick because of how his numbers translated to trophies, are you sure you're not penalizing him mostly because of the fortunes/strength of their respective teams over the years? Because guess what: Hasek's career playoff stats are even better than his career regular season stats (2.02 GAA vs 2.20, 0.925 SV% vs 0.922, 12 SO/100 GP vs 11 SO/100 GP, etc).

 

[Rhiessan71]

Wait, if Hasek is the "no-brainer" pick because of how his numbers translated to trophies, are you sure you're not penalizing him mostly because of the fortunes/strength of their respective teams over the years? Because guess what: Hasek's career playoff stats are even better than his career regular season stats (2.02 GAA vs 2.20, 0.925 SV% vs 0.922, 12 SO/100 GP vs 11 SO/100 GP, etc).

And you realise that the majority of Hasek's playoff numbers are better playing for Buffalo than they are playing for a superior Detroit team.

And once again, lets talk context of those numbers.

1986 Playoffs
Roy 20GP 1.92GAA .923s%
Vernon 21GP 2.93GAA .897s%
Vanbiesbrouck 16GP 3.27GAA .897s%

1993 Playoffs
Roy 20GP 2.13GAA .929s%
Potvin 21GP 2.84GAA .903s%
Hrudy 20GP 3.52GAA .887s%
Healy 18GP 3.19GAA .887s%

1998 Playoffs
Hasek 19GP 1.77GAA .939s%
Belfour 23GP 1.67GAA .930s%
Roy 19GP 2.66GAA .920s%
Joseph 17GP 2.43GAA .907s%

Once they are put in context to their peers, Roy's '86 and '93 numbers become even more dominant than Hasek's '98 numbers.

 

[chrisp200]

I really believe that Haseks style is what makes people think he was so great, it was very unconventional. That being said, watching him during the 90s I never thought he was the best goalie then or now. Maybe it was because I am a Penguin fan and it seemed like everytime we played him we would light him up and make him look ridiculous flopping on the ice.

 

[GuineaPig]

I don't give much greater significance to post-season numbers. Do I think that it was much better for his team success (and absolutely crucial to at least three of those cups) that Roy played so well in the post-season? Yes. But I do think some of those runs benefited from him and his team going on a hot streak at the right time, rather than some super-human ability on Roy's part.

Take '93 for example. In the regular season, Roy was at a 0.894 save percentage, which while above-average (0.885) for the season, was off the pace he had been at previous years. Then, in the playoffs, he was white hot, propelling the Habs with a 0.929 save percentage.

I don't think Roy was a merely above-average goalie in the regular season, that he was just "making the big saves, not all the saves" or "saving himself for the playoffs" so that he could "win when it really counts." I think he was probably a bit unlucky or had a couple streaks of poor play in the regular season, and then vice versa for the playoffs. He was at 0.903 for the total year, which probably is a lot closer to where he was as a goalie at the time, with a few factors explaining his decrease from the previous year (higher league scoring in general that season, probably a bit of a regression from his career-best regular season the previous year, and the Habs allowing more powerplays).

 

[Rhiessan71]

I don't give much greater significance to post-season numbers. Do I think that it was much better for his team success (and absolutely crucial to at least three of those cups) that Roy played so well in the post-season? Yes. But I do think some of those runs benefited from him and his team going on a hot streak at the right time, rather than some super-human ability on Roy's part.

Take '93 for example. In the regular season, Roy was at a 0.894 save percentage, which while above-average (0.885) for the season, was off the pace he had been at previous years. Then, in the playoffs, he was white hot, propelling the Habs with a 0.929 save percentage.

I don't think Roy was a merely above-average goalie in the regular season, that he was just "making the big saves, not all the saves" or "saving himself for the playoffs" so that he could "win when it really counts." I think he was probably a bit unlucky or had a couple streaks of poor play in the regular season, and then vice versa for the playoffs. He was at 0.903 for the total year, which probably is a lot closer to where he was as a goalie at the time, with a few factors explaining his decrease from the previous year (higher league scoring in general that season, probably a bit of a regression from his career-best regular season the previous year, and the Habs allowing more powerplays).

Except if you look over Roy's career, he repeatedly improved on his regular season numbers in the playoff's.
It was never about Roy "getting lucky". He played at a higher level in the playoff's, that's a fact.

 

[GuineaPig]

Except if you look over Roy's career, he repeatedly improved on his regular season numbers in the playoff's.
It was never about Roy "getting lucky". He played at a higher level in the playoff's, that's a fact.

I don't buy that Patrick Roy, super competitive as he was, was disinterested in the regular season.

It's just Occam's Razor. Like I don't believe Chris Osgood could magically transform himself from a barely mediocre goaltender (0.899 regular season save percentage 2007-09) into an elite goalie come playoff time (0.928 sv% on those two cup runs).

 

[Rhiessan71]

I don't buy that Patrick Roy, super competitive as he was, was disinterested in the regular season.

It's just Occam's Razor. Like I don't believe Chris Osgood could magically transform himself from a barely mediocre goaltender (0.899 regular season save percentage 2007-09) into an elite goalie come playoff time (0.928 sv% on those two cup runs).

Who said Roy was disinterested in the regular season?
He was just more interested in the playoffs.
He grew up in Quebec and played for the Montreal Canadiens. You know, the only team in the league that only hangs Stanley Cup banners and retired numbers in their rafters.

It sure as hell wasn't luck that nabbed Roy 4 Cups, 3 Conn Smythe's, 151 playoff wins and an absolutely mind blowing 40-16 playoff overtime record.


Look, I've been a goalie since I was 6 years old, that's 34 years now and I watched Hasek and Roy in great detail.
I have Hasek as the best I ever saw, he was a genius and could do things with his boney, double jointed ass that I haven't seen before or since but Roy's ability to step up in the playoffs is unparalleled.

 

[EpochLink]

Roy, Brodeur then Hasek for me..