Proposal: Doesn't Detroit need Cap relief to sign Larkin?

[ClydeLee]

Then why did Chicago just give up some good players so that Coyotes would take Hossa's LTIR Cap hit off their hands?

If Detroit doesnt care they cant use the extra cap and dont plan on making improvements this or next year its fine.

The hawks want to not have to struggle when adding in the next years. Even if not this year they likely wont ve forced to carry over all their bonus payouts to next year. Even without tons of bonuses they have 1.9mil against this seasons cap because a whole ltir year player makes it so you can't pay out bonuses earned that season with saved cap.

 

[SoupNazi]

How about Johan Franzen's cap hit for 1st round pick?

Detroit Red Wings - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

Detroit's not giving up what will be a top 10 pick for cap relief.

 

[Djp]

Dude? You're too wrong, Franzen can be put on LTIR after training camp if Holland so chooses. He doesn't have to be placed on day one. He's done his hockey career is over. From what the CBA says as long as a player hasn't played a single game in the prior season they can pretty much be placed on LTIR after training camp. If Mule had played a game last year then i believe you'd be correct and he couldn't be LTIR until the start of the season. Holland put Mule on LTIR about 5 days last year before the start of the season.

It doesn’t change the cap issues of his money counting against the cap...that isn’t true. See Savard and Boston. He didn’t okay but wasn’t put on ktir until season officially started.

If the case he doesn’t count if he didn’t play all last season they why not the NHL just have a ltir lust seperate from the teams to put pro get, savard, Hossa, etc all and these players nit even appear against the teams cap nut still counted in team share of money.

Chicago traded Hossa because they needed cap space. Sane was done with savard and printer.

 

[xNogaitx]

Franzen will likely be on LTIR, so I'm assuming Detroit's cap space will be $6.8M at the start of the season.

So I believe all they have to do is wait until season opening to sign Larkin (or they can trade Nyquist now to be able to sign Larkin right away.)

But say there's a trade to be done if I'm MTL I'd offer the following:

MTL:
Nyquist, Gustav ($4.75M)
2019 NYI 2nd round pick

DET:
Byron, Paul ($1.16M)
2019 CLG 4th round pick

Net cap savings to Detroit would be $3.59M in 2019, the net effect in terms of goal production would be nil. (Both players have similar goal productions and age).

Now I get that Nyquist is a 2nd liner vs. Byron a 3rd liner. Yet they both have very similar productions at differing cap hits.

The logic for Detroit is obviously to be able to sign Larkin whilst still having a valuable piece to trade a the deadline.
(Byron could be used to recoup another 2nd and other pieces at the 2019 TDL.)

The logic for Montreal is being able to ensure a late 1st round pick return at the TDL (By trading a retained Nyquist to a contending team) on top of adding a 2nd rounder to their 2019 draft selection.

 

[Cypher]

How about Johan Franzen's cap hit for 1st round pick?

Detroit Red Wings - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

The Wings currently have 2.827956 million in cap space.

They need another defenseman on the roster, to make a 23 man roster (probably Lashoff, or McIIrath), so substract another 0.65 million.

You are now at 2.177956 million in cap space.

You put Franzen on LTIR once the season starts, so you add 3.954545 million.

You are now at 6.132501 million in cap space.

That is more than enough to sign Larkin.

And yes, I know you can't put players on LTIR until the season starts, but you can go over the cap by 10% in the summer. You just have to be cap compliant by opening night.

/thread.

 

[PullHard]

No, Detroit doesn't need cap relief to sign Larkin. See: threads from every summer for the last few years asking the same question about different players. @WeNeverGetaGoodCoach

In response to posters like @Dr Quincy : you are right the Wings should do more to clear up cap space. The fan base (90% of it at least) would love to clear it up and weaponize it a bit, similar to how other rebuilding teams like Arizona and Toronto (until recently) had been taking on some bad deals to get some assets. Unfortunately Holland and his men don't see it that way and are comfortable pushing the cap and LTIR numbers to their absolute limits every season. Not much we can do about that as fans.

 

[Jumptheshark]

Detroit's not giving up what will be a top 10 pick for cap relief.

and it is not really cap relief as he goes on the LTIR when the season starts

 

[WingsMJN2965]

No I am not.

LTIR potentisl must count against roster on opening day. Only after opening day starts can he be put on ktir.

Before that a team must comply with roster cap and salary cap.

When boston had a hard they hada few roster elc players they could send them down , put him on ltir, then call them up. They trraded him when they didnt gave the exempt roster players.

Except kiddo, you are wrong. Just like Horton is never going to play again for the Leafs or elsewhere, until the first day of the season his cap counts.

Hate to break it to you both, but no, it doesn't need to count opening day.

This really needs to be put in the OP by a mod or something, just so people can get this stupid idea out of their heads.

"Can LTIR be used in the off-season?
Yes, LTIR can be used in the off-season while the 10% off-season cushion is active. LTIR in the off-season is calculated using the basic equation outlined above, which permits a team to exceed the off-season salary cap. To use off-season LTIR the team must provide doctors proof that the player in question will continue to be injured at the beginning of the regular season for 10 NHL games and 24 calendar days.

At the start of the season the teams LTIR relief & ACSL is recalculated when the 10% cushion is removed."

 

[obey86]

To use in season ltir they have to fit under the cap that day 1 before they can get that space relived or take the fines, whatever it Is the league would punish with.

Theres offseason LTIRing but then you cant use that cap space in the season as well.

You're wrong. They've already done this in the past. Here's an article from a few years ago on the Flyers and their similar situation with Pronger:

I've read it on Twitter and in news articles numerous times ... "the Flyers must wait until Day 1 of the regular season before placing Pronger on LTIR," or something to that effect. The truth is the Flyers do not have to wait until the first day of the regular season to place Pronger on LTIR.Which means they do not have to shed any cap space in order to become cap compliant.

The Flyers have two options when it comes to LTIR; use it on the last day of training camp, or use it on the first day of the regular season. The timing is the key difference.

OPTION 1: Build the injured player into their opening-day roster and have that roster fit as close to the upper limit as possible without exceeding it, then place the player on LTIR.
...
OPTION 2: Put the injured player on LTIR on the final day of training camp and, including the injured player's annual average salary or cap hit, build a roster that exceeds the upper limit by an amount that is as close as possible to the injured player's annual average salary.

How the Flyers can maximize their cap space

 

[WingsMJN2965]

It's gonna be amusing when Detroit signs Larkin without moving anybody and you get a slew of, "How can they do that?!" posts by people freaking out because they thought they knew better.

 

[LarKing]

Yes fans of other teams looking to take advantage, please tell us more about our cap situation. We get this every single year. I will be bumping this when you are wrong.

 

[obey86]

LTIR doesnt work that way

LTIR only starts when season starts. If Detroit had a bunch of ELC plYers they could send them down, put him on ktuir then call the players back up Gainst his cap hit.

Detroit is without elcs so sending a player down exposes them to waivers.

You don't know what you're talking about. See my above post.

 

[obey86]

Except kiddo, you are wrong. Just like Horton is never going to play again for the Leafs or elsewhere, until the first day of the season his cap counts.

Nope. See the Red Wings of the last 2-3 years as examples.

 

[WingsMJN2965]

But say there's a trade to be done if I'm MTL I'd offer the following:

MTL:
Nyquist, Gustav ($4.75M)
2019 NYI 2nd round pick

DET:
Byron, Paul ($1.16M)
2019 CLG 4th round pick

Detroit gives up the better pick to swap for a worse player while already having a logjam at forward, all to clear cap space, which myself and @obey86 have already proven they don't need.

 

[xNogaitx]

Detroit gives up the better pick to swap for a worse player while already having a logjam at forward...

You do understand that in a cap dump scenario, the team freeing up cap space is the one surrendering the better pieces right?

This is literally a scenario where you maintain point production in exchange for a drop of a 2nd to a 4th round pick for a whopping 3.59M in cap savings. That's huge in terms of savings for any team in the modern NHL.

But again, as I mentioned, I believe all Detroit has to do is wait until the season opener anyway and they'll be okay.

 

[WingsMJN2965]

You do understand that in a cap dump scenario, the team freeing up cap space is the one surrendering the better pieces right?

This is literally a scenario where you maintain point production in exchange for a drop of a 2nd to a 4th round pick for a whopping 3.59M in cap savings. That's huge in terms of savings for any team in the modern NHL.

But again, as I mentioned, I believe all Detroit has to do is wait until the season opener anyway and they'll be okay.

You do understand Detroit doesn't need to dump cap, that they don't need to wait for the season opener to sign Larkin, and that, counting Larkin, they have 13 NHL forwards without even counting Zadina, Rasmussen, and Svechnikov, right?

Your proposal hinges on three different faulty assumptions:

1. Detroit needs to pay to dump Nyquist. They don't.

2. If they don't pay to dump Nyquist, they're going to have to wait to sign Larkin. They wont.

3. Detroit needs to get a forward back to replace Nyquist's production. They don't. They already have 2-3 NHL ready prospects who are going to struggle to make the team because of the forward logjam.

 

[mariolemieux66]

Franzen, Hronek and 2 5th?

 

[Lindys Lazy Eye]

Lets pattern it after the Savard trade.

Franzen's contract and a 2019 2nd (Detroit's choice of their own or the Isles') for two AHLers.

Say Brian Strait and Blake Pietilla.

 

[WingsMJN2965]

Franzen, Hronek and 2 5th?

Probably should read all the posts shooting down the logic of the original ridiculous proposal before you add another ridiculous proposal.

 

[Empoleon8771]

How is Franzen's situation different from Hossa's?

The Hawks didn't have to give up a top 10 1st round pick to trade Hossa, so why do you think the Wings will have to do that with Franzen?

Let's base it on the Hossa deal, you're looking at something like Franzen, Frk, Jensen and a 3rd for 2 AHLers, a 5th and a short term smaller cap dump. That's not a top-10 pick on top of Franzen to take Franzen.

 

[WingsMJN2965]

The Hawks didn't have to give up a top 10 1st round pick to trade Hossa, so why do you think the Wings will have to do that with Franzen?

More importantly, Detroit doesn't need to get rid of Franzen's contract.

This conversation is better slated for next year, when Zetterberg likely LTIR's and Detroit has to eat $2M because you can only LTIR 10% of the cap ceiling. Even then, they'll probably eat the $2M, because they could have all of Zadina, Rasmussen, Svechnikov, Hronek, and Cholowski playing in the NHL on ELCs.

 

[WingsMJN2965]

Even better, if all five of those guys are up next year, Detroit could be paying Larkin, (I assumed let's say $6.5M) Mantha, Athanasiou, Bertuzzi, Zadina, Rasmussen, Hronek, Cholowski, and Svechnikov a grand total of $18.7M.

For nine players.

Such cap trouble.

 

[u2wojo]

Wings can:
1) simply agree to an extension with Larkin verbally and sign the deal once the season begins and Franson is LTIR'ed, 2) they move a moveable piece like Nyquist for futures
3) send Frk and Glendening (or just one and bridge for less) through waivers and down to get to 19 skaters, sign Larkin to a bridge for up to 4.877 to be the required 20th, LTIR Franson, and recall whoever you want up to 23.

 

[Tatar Shots]

Franzen will likely be on LTIR, so I'm assuming Detroit's cap space will be $6.8M at the start of the season.

So I believe all they have to do is wait until season opening to sign Larkin (or they can trade Nyquist now to be able to sign Larkin right away.)

But say there's a trade to be done if I'm MTL I'd offer the following:

MTL:
Nyquist, Gustav ($4.75M)
2019 NYI 2nd round pick

DET:
Byron, Paul ($1.16M)
2019 CLG 4th round pick

Net cap savings to Detroit would be $3.59M in 2019, the net effect in terms of goal production would be nil. (Both players have similar goal productions and age).

Now I get that Nyquist is a 2nd liner vs. Byron a 3rd liner. Yet they both have very similar productions at differing cap hits.

The logic for Detroit is obviously to be able to sign Larkin whilst still having a valuable piece to trade a the deadline.
(Byron could be used to recoup another 2nd and other pieces at the 2019 TDL.)

The logic for Montreal is being able to ensure a late 1st round pick return at the TDL (By trading a retained Nyquist to a contending team) on top of adding a 2nd rounder to their 2019 draft selection.

No thanks. But while we are playing blatantly rip off the other team. How do you feel about Nyquist for Drouin?

Detroit does not have to do anything to fit Larkin's contract in. Same shit every year with people having zero understanding of how the salary cap works. Seriously, this is like the 3rd or 4th year and a row with the 'Detroit is screwed cap wise and has to make a move,'

 

[WingsMJN2965]

Wings can:
1) simply agree to an extension with Larkin verbally and sign the deal once the season begins and Franson is LTIR'ed, 2) they move a moveable piece like Nyquist for futures
3) send Frk and Glendening (or just one and bridge for less) through waivers and down to get to 19 skaters, sign Larkin to a bridge for up to 4.877 to be the required 20th, LTIR Franson, and recall whoever you want up to 23.

Or just sign Larkin 6 x 6 now and not worry about any of that...