Proposal: Doesn't Detroit need Cap relief to sign Larkin?

[Oddbob]

I am confused. Franzen's cap hit counts whether he plays or not, so to dump that cap onto another team, Red Wings would have to pay up significant assets.

No his cap hit doesn't count, regardless. It is LTIR, because there is guaranteed no way he is playing again, in the NHL, or anywhere. He still has heavy concussion symptoms more than 2 years after playing his last game, and he only played 2 games his final season, and took a relatively minor bump. Just bending down to pick up his kid, makes him dizzy.

Also the Wings aren't being held against a gun here, needing to make a move, and all other teams, have them right where they want them. If Tatar netted 1,2,3 rnd picks, then Nyquist nets probably 2nd and 3rd rnd picks. Nyquist will get dealt at or near the deadline, once we are about 10-15 or so pts out of playoff spot, just like when Tatar got dealt last year, and none of it, had anything to do with cap implications.

 

[taylorjonl]

lol, pretty sure the Detroit organization has a plan to sign their future captain without giving up a significant asset.

 

[ClydeLee]

NO! How many people are going to have threads/posts about this???! The Wings do not need any space to sign Larkin! You can be over the cap by 10% during the offseason, then on Day 1, Franzen's nearly 4 million goes to LTIR! Larkin will come in some where between 5-6 most likely and even if he got as much as 7, I am pretty sure they would still comply with the rules.

Also, even if they had to move Franzen for space it wouldn't cost anything near a 1st round pick, nor would the Wings choose to go that route. They could move any of a number of contracts, before wasting assets to move out money. However once again, THEY DO NOT NEED TO MOVE MONEY OUT!

To use in season ltir they have to fit under the cap that day 1 before they can get that space relived or take the fines, whatever it Is the league would punish with.

Theres offseason LTIRing but then you cant use that cap space in the season as well.

 

[I am I]

yes, I know, but eventually they need to do something.

But until they sign Larkin they don't know what is is they need to do. If they bridge him for $4M they LTIR Franzen and they are done. Likely that is all they need to do anyway.

 

[Wingsfan 4 life]

I am confused. Franzen's cap hit counts whether he plays or not, so to dump that cap onto another team, Red Wings would have to pay up significant assets.

As far as I know, Franzen's cap hit only counts in the offesason, where teams can also be up to 10% over the cap ceiling. They have to be cap compliant by opening day.

Wings will do their annual LiTR dance, like they've done the past few seasons.

As much flak Holland has got from Wings fans and none Wings fans alike, the one thing I personally am not worried about is him being able to fit everybody that matters into the fold.

 

[taylorjonl]

To use in season ltir they have to fit under the cap that day 1 before they can get that space relived or take the fines, whatever it Is the league would punish with.

Theres offseason LTIRing but then you cant use that cap space in the season as well.

They don't have to fit under the cap before the season starts, they can LTIR on the day before the season starts, they just get less cap relief. It won't be significant enough to prevent the signing of Larkin.

 

[Oddbob]

To use in season ltir they have to fit under the cap that day 1 before they can get that space relived or take the fines, whatever it Is the league would punish with.

Theres offseason LTIRing but then you cant use that cap space in the season as well.

From what I have been told by others who know the rules far better than I, this is not the case! Detroit has done, this kind of thing, for the past 2 or 3 years, getting in just under the cap, with Franzen's LTIR contract. I am not really familiar or understanding of the rules, but others on this site (some Wing fans, some not), know it quite well, and they say Detroit is fine, so I trust their judgment on it, seeing as they have been right about it in other years. Most of this "Detroit is in Cap Trouble" is the many misinformed not understanding and trying to throw mud at a team, who is in a downturn and they may hate.

 

[Voodoo Glow Skulls]

As far as I know, Franzen's cap hit only counts in the offesason, where teams can also be up to 10% over the cap ceiling. They have to be cap compliant by opening day.

Wings will do their annual LiTR dance, like they've done the past few seasons.

If anyone knows cap limitations, it's mister kickin' tires.

 

[Oddbob]

If anyone knows cap limitations, it's mister kickin' tires.

He's kicked the crap out of tires his whole career!

 

[I am I]

To use in season ltir they have to fit under the cap that day 1 before they can get that space relived or take the fines, whatever it Is the league would punish with.

Theres offseason LTIRing but then you cant use that cap space in the season as well.

There isn't any fine. They just put Franzen on LTIR on the last day of training camp. I don't think it is as helpful as in season LTIR, but I don't think the Wings are buyers at the deadline anyway so not really a big deal.

As much as I would like it to be a problem for the Wings, I really don't think it is.

 

[Kakko Schmakko]

How is Franzen's situation different from Hossa's?

 

[Qward]

How about Franzen and Saarijarvi to ottawa for a conditional 7th?

 

[taylorjonl]

How about Franzen and Saarijarvi to ottawa for a conditional 7th?

No thanks, we will just sign Larkin and LTIR Franzen.

 

[darcyRegier]

7 years x $4.25mil for Justin Abdelkader . Dekeyser, Daley & Ericsson contracts are brutal as well.

 

[Voodoo Glow Skulls]

7 years x $4.25mil for Justin Abdelkader . Dekeyser, Daley & Ericsson contracts are brutal as well.

Liked for the contribution to the thread.

 

[lifelonghockeyfan]

God, when does this LTIR nonsense end. Teams aren't punished for having injured players.
Best example last year summer. Leafs had Lupul and Horton on LTIR for a total of 10.6.m. Leafs were still able to spend to cap...nearly 75m....plus having 10.6m of LTIRs.
The only "punishment" an LTIR hurts a team is it might affect WHEN a team can pay it's performance bonuses.
Quit obsessing about LTIRs and how it's going to affect teams ability to spend (99% of the time)

 

[Kakko Schmakko]

God, when does this LTIR nonsense end. Teams aren't punished for having injured players.
Best example last year summer. Leafs had Lupul and Horton on LTIR for a total of 10.6.m. Leafs were still able to spend to cap...nearly 75m....plus having 10.6m of LTIRs.
The only "punishment" an LTIR hurts a team is it might affect WHEN a team can pay it's performance bonuses.
Quit obsessing about LTIRs and how it's going to affect teams ability to spend (99% of the time)

Then why did Chicago just give up some good players so that Coyotes would take Hossa's LTIR Cap hit off their hands?

 

[Wingsfan 4 life]

There isn't any fine. They just put Franzen on LTIR on the last day of training camp. I don't think it is as helpful as in season LTIR, but I don't think the Wings are buyers at the deadline anyway so not really a big deal.

As much as I would like it to be a problem for the Wings, I really don't think it is.

IIRC, the difference would be Detroit wouldn't be able to bank cap space at the TDL. It would be nice to be able to, just in case, but its not a big deal if they can't.

 

[lifelonghockeyfan]

Then why did Chicago just give up some good players so that Coyotes would take Hossa's LTIR Cap hit off their hands?

Really don't know. Detroit isn't really a "bonus paying" problem for the next two years, so Franzen isn't an issue for the Wings. Do the Hawks perceive there is problem in the next three year in bonus payments for the next three years. I wouldn't think so since the Hawks have so much tied up in veteran players.
The other issue is that maybe Hossa within the next three years is deemed medically fit and then there is no LTIR cap relief. Then Arizona would be on the hook for his 5.25m cap hit, which doesn't really hurt the "not near the cap" Coyotes, and they just have to pay him 1m per year in real money . Kruger and his 2.75m cap hit this year, just evens out the money Arizona has to pay for Hossa whether he on or off LTIR.

 

[hockeykicker]

Then why did Chicago just give up some good players so that Coyotes would take Hossa's LTIR Cap hit off their hands?

Probably because although its ltir money, the hawks still had to pay him the money

 

[I am I]

IIRC, the difference would be Detroit wouldn't be able to bank cap space at the TDL. It would be nice to be able to, just in case, but its not a big deal if they can't.

Sort of, it is complicated and I'm not sure I understand it. I think it just lowers the point at which a team can accumulate cap. If a team is above the salary cap they never accumulate cap space in either case (that is if they use the LTIR pool). If they LTIR a player in training camp then the accumulation limit is their cap hit less the players cap. So for next season with Franzen at $3.9 and the cap at $79.5 the Wings need to have a total cap of $83.4 to get the full Franzen amount.

This is why capologist is a job.

 

[WingsMJN2965]

How about Johan Franzen's cap hit for 1st round pick?

Detroit Red Wings - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

How about you lay off the hard liquor before posting.

I am confused. Franzen's cap hit counts whether he plays or not, so to dump that cap onto another team, Red Wings would have to pay up significant assets.

The bold is clear. It's the rest of the post where you're completely wrong.

 

[WingsMJN2965]

Probably because although its ltir money, the hawks still had to pay him the money

Far as I know, they actually get contracts insured so that if something happens, they don't pay the majority of it.

 

[Djp]

Or they could just put franzen on the ltir on the last day of training camp.

LTIR doesnt work that way

LTIR only starts when season starts. If Detroit had a bunch of ELC plYers they could send them down, put him on ktuir then call the players back up Gainst his cap hit.

Detroit is without elcs so sending a player down exposes them to waivers.

 

[Djp]

No his cap hit doesn't count, regardless. It is LTIR, because there is guaranteed no way he is playing again, in the NHL, or anywhere. He still has heavy concussion symptoms more than 2 years after playing his last game, and he only played 2 games his final season, and took a relatively minor bump. Just bending down to pick up his kid, makes him dizzy.

Also the Wings aren't being held against a gun here, needing to make a move, and all other teams, have them right where they want them. If Tatar netted 1,2,3 rnd picks, then Nyquist nets probably 2nd and 3rd rnd picks. Nyquist will get dealt at or near the deadline, once we are about 10-15 or so pts out of playoff spot, just like when Tatar got dealt last year, and none of it, had anything to do with cap implications.

Read my post above...

His cap hit does count against the cap the first day of year..only then can he go on ltir. Prior to that they need to comply with the 23 man roster nax and be at or under the cap.