Does this (the Sharks) make Mclellan look bad?

[Replacement*]

Well, it's going to be interesting to see how the Sharks do next year. If they can keep the momentum going and stay dangerous and competitive in 2017, then you have to give DeBoer credit.
You have to figure, however, that their confidence, enthusiasm and team camaraderie has to take a bit of a hit after such a disastrous final.
With the vets aging another year, Burns on the final year of his contract, it's going to be a difficult follow-up season for the Sharks and for DeBoer I think.

Hardly any team not named the Chicago BlackHawks follow up a SC final year very well in the following season. The NHL as a capped league is just too competitive, and has too much player and team parity to have consecutive year success. Even the Blackhawks couldn't manage it this year. Tampa went as far as they did because of two rounds of roadbump teams.

So given the high improbability of next year success how do you deem it even relevant.

A coach brings a non playoff team to the SC final (that's like divine intervention) and people say "well, lets see what he does next year" lol

Like I said earlier if this was here people would be naming first born and streets and parks after Deboer.

In my mind Deboer has hit the promised land pay dirt twice. He's one of only 10 coaches in the HISTORY of the NHL to bring two separate teams to the cup. Nobody on that list, none, brought two NON PLAYOFF clubs to the final.

hfedmonton reaction ; "lets see he does next year" lolol

 

[Senor Catface]

Agreed completely. People used to bemoan McLellan's lack of tactical adjustments but DeBoer didn't change anything up either.

Sharks got 2 PP/game in the Finals, 4 PP/game leading up to the Finals. That's another reason.

Said this a couple times.

DeBoer was completely out-coached and outclassed.

 

[Dimensha]

lol, sorry, but it doesn't strike you or anybody as ironic that the Burns comment then came from a player playing in the WC because his team missed the playoffs.

I mean thanks for telling me when it was, I rarely watch hockey WC, mainly because I feel its a poor consolation tournament for all the non playoff clubs and early knockouts.

in anycase I wonder what Burns would say a year later? What was his frame of reference really? He had his best hockey season just now.

"This opinion doesn't fit my narrative, therefore it is invalid to me"

Did you at all attempt to apply this kind of questioning to the Thornton quote you keep parading around because it supports your opinion?

 

[CupofOil]

The team had 50 games of McDavid and a full season of Talbot. That alone should have resulted in considerable improvement. It was a given that there should be improvement, the team drafted one of the best players in hockey, and the team got a great goaltender. The actual results considering that, and finishing even lower in the standings is not exactly great. Yes I realize there was modest improvement in goal differential but special teams, pk, PP, still absolutely sucked and are facets of the game that are influenced by coaching.

Worst run of injuries/ was it? I cant' remember a year where we had more of our core players intact and playing most of the season.

A 43 goal improvement is modest?

Most of the core intact?

McDavid missed 37 games
RNH missed 27 games
Pouliot missed 27 games
Yakupov missed 21 games
Eberle missed 13 games
Klefbom missed 52 games
Davidson gets injured right when he was hitting his stride
Not to mention lots of nagging injuries to bottom 6ers and bottom pairing namely Hendricks and Gryba.

They had 4 players (FOUR) who didn't miss extended time. Hall, Drai, Sekera and Letestu.

There was an extended stretch where they had Sekera-Fayne as their top pairing with Nurse, Clendenning, Oesterle and Pardy/Reinhart rounding out their bottom 4. What more could Mclellan do with that group?

I dare you to find one team that had this rash of injuries to so many key players.
Obviously the season was a failure but they never had a chance from the beginning with all the injuries that continued to pile up and a roster that was flawed even when healthy. Even with all that, I thought the team played admirably and fought hard for the most part outside of a few obscenely bad performances that were called out by Mclellan post-game.

 

[Replacement*]

"This opinion doesn't fit my narrative, therefore it is invalid to me"

Did you at all attempt to apply this kind of questioning to the Thornton quote you keep parading around because it supports your opinion?

1) Burns is laughably saying "Best coach evar" while Burns is playing in the participation world tournament because his club flunked out and didn't even make the playoffs. You see no irony in that.

2)Burns has had the same coach in the NHL and AHL. Again what does he have in relative terms to compare McLellan to.

3) Now that Burns has played for another coach that has taken him farther than he's ever been, and a season that was best ever year, what would he be saying now.

4) Yes, a Thornton quote made this postseason, while actually experiencing a new head coach is more relevant than one that occurred PRIOR

This all being perfectly logical and easy to follow.

 

[Replacement*]

A 43 goal improvement is modest?

Most of the core intact?

McDavid missed 37 games
RNH missed 27 games
Pouliot missed 27 games
Yakupov missed 21 games
Eberle missed 13 games
Klefbom missed 52 games
Davidson gets injured right when he was hitting his stride
Not to mention lots of nagging injuries to bottom 6ers and bottom pairing namely Hendricks and Gryba.

They had 4 players (FOUR) who didn't miss extended time. Hall, Drai, Sekera and Letestu.

There was an extended stretch where they had Sekera-Fayne as their top pairing with Nurse, Clendenning, Oesterle and Pardy/Reinhart rounding out their bottom 4. What more could Mclellan do with that group?

I dare you to find one team that had this rash of injuries to so many key players.
Obviously the season was a failure but they never had a chance from the beginning with all the injuries that continued to pile up and a roster that was flawed even when healthy. Even with all that, I thought the team played admirably and fought hard for the most part outside of a few obscenely bad performances that were called out by Mclellan post-game.

RNH is going to be injured nearly every year. Kind of comes with the territory of having a physical position in the WC with an extremely slight physical frame. I would say just expect him to be missing for around 20 every season.

Pouliot? lol, who? The team was far better without him with Maroon inserted. or Kassian.

Yakupov? Seriously. 99% of the board considers him useless and a waste of a roster spot.

Eberle? 13 games is significant now? The average player misses around 7Games/season. The average small player playing in the NHL misses more.

Klefbom? When hasn't he been injured. I'm expecting bubonic plague next. heres a thought, maybe the guy who has rarely been healthy and 100% will not likely be.

Davidson? 1.5yrs ago people wouldn't know who this guy was. Now his absence is the reason we're losing?


This is the physical world of pro hockey where injuries are common, and becoming more common. Teams either persevere, or not.

injuries are, you know, excuses, which ANY NHL headcoach will state regularly.

 

[Dimensha]

1) Burns is laughably saying "Best coach evar" while Burns is playing in the participation world tournament because his club flunked out and didn't even make the playoffs. You see no irony in that.

2)Burns has had the same coach in the NHL and AHL. Again what does he have in relative terms to compare McLellan to.

3) Now that Burns has played for another coach that has taken him farther than he's ever been, and a season that was best ever year, what would he be saying now.

This all being perfectly logical and easy to follow.

1. What logic? He didn't make the playoffs, therefore he is being facetious when asked his opinion about his old coach? That's your opinion, stop stating it as fact.

2. Jacques Lemaire for several seasons? Todd Richards for a couple seasons? perhaps his Junior coaches as well?

3. Who knows, nobody has asked, so why are you assuming it would be any different.

Watching you try to assess Mclellan by applying "logic" the way you do is like watching Fox News try to given an "honest" assessment of Obama's last term as president.

 

[Del Preston]

"This opinion doesn't fit my narrative, therefore it is invalid to me"

Did you at all attempt to apply this kind of questioning to the Thornton quote you keep parading around because it supports your opinion?

Are you at all surprised?

 

[CupofOil]

RNH is going to be injured nearly every year. Kind of comes with the territory of having a physical position in the WC with an extremely slight physical frame. I would say just expect him to be missing for around 20 every season.

Pouliot? lol, who? The team was far better without him with Maroon inserted. or Kassian.

Yakupov? Seriously. 99% of the board considers him useless and a waste of a roster spot.

Eberle? 13 games is significant now? The average player misses around 7Games/season. The average small player playing in the NHL misses more.

Klefbom? When hasn't he been injured. I'm expecting bubonic plague next. heres a thought, maybe the guy who has rarely been healthy and 100% will not likely be.

Davidson? 1.5yrs ago people wouldn't know who this guy was. Now his absence is the reason we're losing?


This is the physical world of pro hockey where injuries are common, and becoming more common. Teams either persevere, or not.

injuries are, you know, excuses, which ANY NHL headcoach will state regularly.

RNH missed a total of 8 games the 2 seasons prior. Kind of don't understand why people keep calling him injury prone.

Kassian is nowhere near as good as Pouliot, come on now. Pouliot had 19 goals in 58 games for the Oilers the season before. He's a legit 2nd liner on the Oilers.
Maroon did offset that loss though, I'll give you that.

Eberle missed the first 13 games of the season. A time that was vital to get off to a strong start. Pretty important timeline to be missing your best goal scorer.

Klefbom was their #1 Dman at the time of injury. Took on all the tough minutes and was really coming into his own. They were actually a .500 team before he went down. Kind of a significant loss for a team that had no D depth whatsoever.

Who cares about where Davidson was 1.5 years ago? At the time of injury, he was playing like a stud and like Klefbom, was playing all the tough minutes and doing well. Clendenning took his minutes or was it Reinhart? Pretty significant loss, no?

When a team with little depth suffers key injuries like that, it's going to be more glaring than most other teams who have better depth. You can thank MacT for handcuffing the team leaving Chia with a barren wasteland of depth.
Even if healthy, did you expect this team to make a big jump in the standings? I sure didn't, you can even check the preseason predictions of mine if you don't believe me. Not sure many picked them to be much better than 2nd or 3rd worst in the west.

In any event, it's quite clear that coaching was not the main problem with the team last season and in fact, it was noted by many opponents post-game how much harder the Oilers are to play against. That's a reflection of good coaching getting a team to slowly buy in. We all knew this was a long process, last season was a baby step. Need a bigger jump next season.

 

[Replacement*]

1. What logic? He didn't make the playoffs, therefore he is being facetious when asked his opinion about his old coach? That's your opinion, stop stating it as fact.

I guess you are immune to irony. Burns missing the playoffs and saying McLellan is the greatest in a year the club missed the playoffs and McLellan had his ass fired is a bit underwhelming. If a guy fails and gets fired in the same year the typical endorsement of the departing coach rings a bit hollow.

2. Jacques Lemaire for several seasons? Todd Richards for a couple seasons? perhaps his Junior coaches as well?

Todd Who?

3. Who knows, nobody has asked, so why are you assuming it would be any different.

Watching you try to assess Mclellan by applying "logic" the way you do is like watching Fox News try to given an "honest" assessment of Obama's last term as president.

Its illogical to suggest that a Burns quote made prior to Deboers ever even being coach of SJ is relevant in assessing whether Burns has a preference. All we have really is an underperforming Burns, under McLelland, who just had his best, and most successful season in the first year without him, while under Deboer. I wonder if success means anything?

 

[Replacement*]

RNH missed a total of 8 games the 2 seasons prior. Kind of don't understand why people keep calling him injury prone.

Probably because any of the long stints in which Nuge sucks his fanbase is saying "he must be playing injured" For instance like most of this season, last season.

Kassian is nowhere near as good as Pouliot, come on now. Pouliot had 19 goals in 58 games for the Oilers the season before. He's a legit 2nd liner on the Oilers.
Maroon did offset that loss though, I'll give you that.

of course Maroon in every way is a better player than Pouliot who has been guilty of floating his entire career. Kassian at least offers some intangibles to a club in need of physical players that don't disappear in scrums or when **** is happening. The Only time Pouliot stands up for anybody when its himself...

Eberle missed the first 13 games of the season. A time that was vital to get off to a strong start. Pretty important timeline to be missing your best goal scorer.

Repeat that Eberle will probably miss games every year. Like small players in the NHL generally do.

Klefbom was their #1 Dman at the time of injury. Took on all the tough minutes and was really coming into his own. They were actually a .500 team before he went down. Kind of a significant loss for a team that had no D depth whatsoever.

Limited sample mean anything? You and I both know the sample played is not sufficient to denote his worth to the club, or to infer anything other than an associative, not causative, relationship to team results. Seriously.

Who cares about where Davidson was 1.5 years ago? At the time of injury, he was playing like a stud and like Klefbom, was playing all the tough minutes and doing well. Clendenning took his minutes or was it Reinhart? Pretty significant loss, no?

REpeat. Does short sample mean anything and substantively indicate what a D will be? No, it doesn't, next?

When a team with little depth suffers key injuries like that, it's going to be more glaring than most other teams who have better depth. You can thank MacT for handcuffing the team leaving Chia with a barren wasteland of depth.
Even if healthy, did you expect this team to make a big jump in the standings? I sure didn't, you can even check the preseason predictions of mine if you don't believe me. Not sure many picked them to be much better than 2nd or 3rd worst in the west.

Did I? I know better. But most of this board had the team placing somewhere around 10th place in conference.

In any event, it's quite clear that coaching was not the main problem with the team last season and in fact, it was noted by many opponents post-game how much harder the Oilers are to play against. That's a reflection of good coaching getting a team to slowly buy in. We all knew this was a long process, last season was a baby step. Need a bigger jump next season.

That's funny, anytime I watched this teams special teams and player use I was convinced that coaching was still having some problems.

 

[Dimensha]

Todd Who?



Its illogical to suggest that a Burns quote made prior to Deboers ever even being coach of SJ is relevant in assessing whether Burns has a preference. All we have really is an underperforming Burns, under McLelland, who just had his best, and most successful season in the first year without him, while under Deboer. I wonder if success means anything?

Todd Who?

The very fact that you assume to know that Burns opinion has changed because he had a good year is illogical (see unwarranted assumption fallacy). For all we know Burns loves playing for both DeBoer and Mclellan, and that his success under Deboer this season hasn't in anyway affected his opinion of Mclellan. But again, that would be an assumption, and I would rather not deal in those.

 

[CupofOil]

Probably because any of the long stints in which Nuge sucks his fanbase is saying "he must be playing injured" For instance like most of this season, last season.

You said he gets injured every year. I stated he missed only 8 games total the last 2 seasons. If you state that Eberle missing 13 games in one season is no big deal then 4 games on average the last 2 seasons is certainly no big deal, can't have it both ways.

of course Maroon in every way is a better player than Pouliot who has been guilty of floating his entire career. Kassian at least offers some intangibles to a club in need of physical players that don't disappear in scrums or when **** is happening. The Only time Pouliot stands up for anybody when its himself...

Oh come on. Pouliot is a better goal scorer, much faster, better on the PK and better defensively. Talk about short sample sizes. Lets not get too excited about a 16 game sample size of Maroon. He was a 4th liner not too long before that. Again, can't have it both ways Replacement.
I really liked what Maroon brought but I need to see more next season to be confident of him as a top 6 option. I have a feeling that we see him on the 3rd line regularly at some point.

Repeat that Eberle will probably miss games every year. Like small players in the NHL generally do.

Seriously? With this again? Do you even watch the Oilers lol? Eberle has been one of the most durable players in the league the last 3 seasons. Seriously Replacement?

Limited sample mean anything? You and I both know the sample played is not sufficient to denote his worth to the club, or to infer anything other than an associative, not causative, relationship to team results. Seriously.

REpeat. Does short sample mean anything and substantively indicate what a D will be? No, it doesn't, next?

So the small sample size argument only works at your convenience. Doesn't apply for Maroon (smaller sample size btw) but does apply to Klefbom and Davidson.
Also, I need to reiterate that the Oilers had no depth to replace these guys. Nurse to replace Klefbom and Reinhart or Oesterle to replace Davidson. You don't see the drop off there and why the team would struggle mightily?

That's funny, anytime I watched this teams special teams and player use I was convinced that coaching was still having some problems.

The PK was fine for the most part. PP was a mess but this team was noticeably better 5 on 5 where most of the games are played.
Again, it's a work in progress. Anybody expecting a big jump last season especially with a depleted roster was expecting too much.

 

[Dorian2]

IMO, Dimenshia is Pwning!!

 

[Replacement*]

Todd Who?

The very fact that you assume to know that Burns opinion has changed because he had a good year is illogical (see unwarranted assumption fallacy). For all we know Burns loves playing for both DeBoer and Mclellan, and that his success under Deboer this season hasn't in anyway affected his opinion of Mclellan. But again, that would be an assumption, and I would rather not deal in those.

The sum extent of your obfuscation then is nothing should ever be stated here.

Of course nobody knows whether Burns likes Deboers or McLellan more which is why I posited, apparently you missed this, that most people, you know, ordinary people, prefer success.


Success is good. Bringing two different non playoff clubs into the SC final is knocking it out of the ballpark TWICE from a coaching perspective. Something Todd has never done.

But I'll repeat one more time for posterity. Deboer is the only NHL headcoach in the HISTORY of the league to bring two different non playoff clubs all the way to the SC final.

But I know some of you want more results from next year..

lol If Deboer never coaches another game in his life he'll have accomplished more than McLellan ever has or likely ever will.

 

[Replacement*]

Just as addendum the only coach that took a team to the final I've known who's club didn't like him all that much was Al Macneil, but that was mostly due to him being an Anglophone coach of a Montreal club AND him being a strict task master.

Humans tend to like leaders/managers/advisors that bring them to greater success than they have ever experienced before in their lives.

Conversely being subservient on sinking ships like this one tends to be a more negative experience.

 

[Replacement*]

You said he gets injured every year. I stated he missed only 8 games total the last 2 seasons. If you state that Eberle missing 13 games in one season is no big deal then 4 games on average the last 2 seasons is certainly no big deal, can't have it both ways.

Not sure what you're on about with this.

Oh come on. Pouliot is a better goal scorer, much faster, better on the PK and better defensively. Talk about short sample sizes. Lets not get too excited about a 16 game sample size of Maroon. He was a 4th liner not too long before that. Again, can't have it both ways Replacement.
I really liked what Maroon brought but I need to see more next season to be confident of him as a top 6 option. I have a feeling that we see him on the 3rd line regularly at some point.

pouliot is a perennial floater that has underwhelmed for a decade in the league and every stop of the many stops he's had.

Maroon is a hard, physical worker with all the intangibles we need who even will arguably produce as well or better than Pouliot.

Seriously? With this again? Do you even watch the Oilers lol? Eberle has been one of the most durable players in the league the last 3 seasons. Seriously Replacement?

Do you understand anything about recurring injury, the effects of continued physical beatings on small players, of how much harder it is for them to have long healthy careers? Not everybody is MSL. Far from it. Eberle is getting targeted, banged up, and having a harder time avoiding freight trains.

So the small sample size argument only works at your convenience. Doesn't apply for Maroon (smaller sample size btw) but does apply to Klefbom and Davidson.
Also, I need to reiterate that the Oilers had no depth to replace these guys. Nurse to replace Klefbom and Reinhart or Oesterle to replace Davidson. You don't see the drop off there and why the team would struggle mightily?

I don't need more NHL game sample to determine I vastly prefer Maroon, to Pouliot. I've seen both players more than enough to know which I prefer. Note that both have actually been long term players LONGTERM. What a silly rebuttal.

The PK was fine for the most part. PP was a mess but this team was noticeably better 5 on 5 where most of the games are played.
Again, it's a work in progress. Anybody expecting a big jump last season especially with a depleted roster was expecting too much.

Well, that's simple, I'm just expecting too much. Maybe 28th place next year.

What a curmudgeon I am to ever hope for better at any point in the rest of my life.

 

[K1984]

I've never seen someone as strong in the art of mind and body language reading as Replacement.

Crazy how it always seems to confirm whichever extreme side of the issue that he has previously staked out.

 

[Dimensha]

The sum extent of your obfuscation then is nothing should ever be stated here.

Of course nobody knows whether Burns likes Deboers or McLellan more which is why I posited, apparently you missed this, that most people, you know, ordinary people, prefer success.


Success is good. Bringing two different non playoff clubs into the SC final is knocking it out of the ballpark TWICE from a coaching perspective. Something Todd has never done.

But I'll repeat one more time for posterity. Deboer is the only NHL headcoach in the HISTORY of the league to bring two different non playoff clubs all the way to the SC final.

But I know some of you want more results from next year..

lol If Deboer never coaches another game in his life he'll have accomplished more than McLellan ever has or likely ever will.

Baiting with personal insults a bad logic, sorry, but its just not worth the effort.

 

[Senor Catface]

Stanley Cups as Head Coach

Mclellan 0
DeBoer 0

That's all that matters. Being the best loser doesn't mean much, personally.

 

[Replacement*]

Baiting with personal insults a bad logic, sorry, but its just not worth the effort.

Irony. You've condescended in every one of your posts in the thread. You have no reply, thus once again trying the diversion to deride me. Nice try.

 

[Dimensha]

Irony. You've condescended in every one of your posts in the thread. You have no reply, thus once again trying the diversion to deride me. Nice try.

You're hilarious, it's like you are completely oblivious to what you post. Stop playing victim to the circumstances you created.

 

[Replacement*]

You're hilarious, it's like you are completely oblivious to what you post. Stop playing victim to the circumstances you created.

Hey, you're the one that laughably cites that I "baited with personal insults".



I didn't start that furtive path. Of course I'll respond if you want to resort to that.

As far as "what I created" I invoked a discussion. On a discussion board. How terrible.

 

[Zaddy]

Weird how much credit DeBoer is getting just because he made the finals in a year where both Hawks and Kings were nowhere near as good as the years McLellan coached the Sharks. Once the Sharks played a real strong team in the Pens in the finals they showed their true colours. DeBoer, like McLellan, wasn't able to get this team to play their best when it mattered the most. Is that on the coach or the players? I seem to think it's on the latter. Both coaches have their faults, like any coach in the NHL, but they've proved to be very good coaches who can bring their teams deep into the playoffs, but once you're there it really comes down more to the players than anything.

 

[KenLinsemanFanClub]

Just as addendum the only coach that took a team to the final I've known who's club didn't like him all that much was Al Macneil, but that was mostly due to him being an Anglophone coach of a Montreal club AND him being a strict task master.

Humans tend to like leaders/managers/advisors that bring them to greater success than they have ever experienced before in their lives.

Conversely being subservient on sinking ships like this one tends to be a more negative experience.

Someone should introduce you to Mike Keenan.