Does the Art Ross change your Hart ballot for the 'Big 3'?

[Fledgemyhedge]

Holy crap I stand corrected . I value goals at 1.8795624 to 1 then after being corrected . Does that do it for ya .

You’re the one who said do the math buddy, and if you actually do it’s a far cry from a 2x

 

[Golden_Jet]

You get 2 assists for every goal , do the math .

No you don’t,
0,1 or 2

 

[klefbombs shoulder]

You get 2 assists for every goal , do the math .

Its more like 1.65 or so.

 

[TampaBayLightning]

I honestly would put decent money on Kucherov ending up outside of the top 3 for the Hart.

I think that would be good for the for the Lightning if Kuch was out of the top 3, man he would be pissed, might not show it but it would be a fire in hos belly .

 

[WarriorOfGandhi]

is there any actual evidence for "the media narrative is that MacKinnon is due" or is this something that angry posters have concocted and keep repeating to each other?

 

[zar]

I appreciate some posters being consistent in saying the Oilers would be a bubble team at best without McDavid and also say he deserves the Hart Trophy in that same view.

Then we have the hypocrites who say the Oilers are a lottery team without McDavid but then want to give the Hart to either MacK or Kuch.

There are valid arguments for all 3 to win the Hart this year but I do think the Oilers would suffer more without McDavid than the Avs or Lightning would without their Hart candidates. All 3 are deserving candidates. I do think winning the Art Ross could sway voting, especially so if McDavid wins it, considering his pace in the back half.

If I were forced to bet a significant amount of money on who I feel the actual voters will award the Hart to, I bet on MacKinnon.

 

[Fledgemyhedge]

Its more like 1.65 or so.

Plus just looking at it mathematically is too simple imo. There’s primary vs secondary assists which are also valued differently. I see lots of posters settling on 1.5 to 1 for various reasons

 

[PM88RU]

if any other player, say Pasternak, Panarin or the great JT Miller was in the exact position McDavid is in, about to do what only Gretzky, Lemieux and Orr have done by getting 100 assists on the season, that player would win in a landslide.

Sometimes this kind of narrative is just not enough. Kuch didn’t get the Smythe despite having 2 30+ points in two consecutive playoffs like only Mario and Wayne did.

Was it fair or not - is a good question. We just can’t deny the fact that the ones who decide are human too, and have their bias and preferences.

And sometimes there are really others deserving.

McDavid has set a very high bar for himself. A bar that high, in fact, that he has to compete not only with other NHL players, but also with former himself.
Being that great he did himself a bad favor, however unfair it would sound.

 

[peconcan]

I’m fine with McDavid or Mackinnon. I’d rather either of them, Makar or Hughes on my team before Kucherov

 

[AvroArrow]

Hart = Player deemed most valuable to his team

McDavid could sit the rest of the season and still win it. It's not a slight to either of those guys, but McDavid is more important to the Oilers than Kuch is to Tampa or Mack to Colorado.

 

[Master P]

Its gonna come down to two Canadian centers vs a Russian winger.

We all know how this ends, even if Kuch is the more important player to his team than the other two.

 

[fcpremix88]

I think 100 assists should be an automatic Hart Trophy.

 

[Namikaze Minato]

Who cares about the Hart, wonder if the Art Ross race has a major influence on the Ted Lindsay award.

I'm way more excited to see how the fellow players vote this year with how crazy close the top guys are.

 

[Despote]

Holy crap I stand corrected . I value goals at 1.8795624 to 1 then after being corrected . Does that do it for ya .

I've never really understood the there are more assists than goals hence goals are more valuable argument. It feels more like a semantic argument than a sound mathematical one.

There are less primary assists than goals and even less secondary assists... that doesn't mean secondary assists are the most valuable commodity.

A more convincing argument would be that goals can exist without assists... but almost always require a primary assist, and commonly also a secondary assist.

The best way to compare their value is look at repeatability, especially when changing teams. Goals ~ primary assists >> secondary assists is usually the result, although they are all valuable.

 

[CpatainCanuck]

Its gonna come down to two Canadian centers vs a Russian winger.

We all know how this ends, even if Kuch is the more important player to his team than the other two.

Russian wingers have won the Hart four times since 2007/08. In the previous "Big Three" era of Crosby, Ovechkin, and Malkin, the Russians won 4 hart trophies to Crosby's 2.

The fact is Kucherov simply isn't more important to his team than McDavid is to the Oilers.

 

[Dust]

You remove a top 5 player in the world off most teams and guess what, they are significantly worse. I don't really think you can go wrong with any of the three guys for the Hart trophy, I just think arguing over which team is worse without is sort of silly.

 

[Master P]

The fact is Kucherov simply isn't more important to his team than McDavid is to the Oilers.

Not for this season.

 

[dgibb10]

I think the narrative that its MacK's "turn" is set in stone...and narrative plays a large part in the Hart voting. Not that he isn't deserving, he has had a great year. IMO Kuch deserves it at this point...he has 45 more points than 2nd on his team...Mac and McD have 27 points over 2nd on their teams.

Kucherov tbf is also lightyears worse defensively

 

[Spirits]

Professional sports leagues live and die with their superstars. League is better off with McDavid winning it when it comes down to splitting hairs over who deserves it.

League is better off putting McDavid on an American team so he can win a cup once in his life.

Isn't Makar the current Norris favorite?

Not on this mortal plane this season...

 

[Goose]

League is better off putting McDavid on an American team so he can win a cup once in his life.

Absolutely would be better for the league if he was in NY or LA or something, Edmonton is probably near the bottom of the list of where they’d prefer he ended up.

 

[Spirits]

It shouldn't matter if McDavid has won the award zero times or 10 times, doing something that's only been done by the 3 greatest players to ever play the game, should be enough to win the trophy, but it won't be because the media is tired of voting for him.

He also isn't better than his contemporaries by several orders of magnitude like 99 & 66 were either.

 

[cupface52]

If we go by the actual criteria for the Hart I think the winner would be Kucherov because there is a bigger gap between him and 2nd place Point (45 points) than MacKinnon or McDavid and their 2nd place player on their team.

Since it is a bit of a hybrid of the most valuable player and the best player in the NHL who had the best year then it gets a little muddier. I suspect the media doesn't like Kucherov all that much. McDavid has won a ton of major awards, and MacKinnon hasn't won any. So with all that in mind considering they are all so very close in points I think the edge goes to MacKinnon here.

There's a bigger gap between Mack and 3rd/4th/5th/6th place on his place than there is between Kucherov and his counterparts. By definition, Mack would be more deserving than Kuch.

Rantanen 100p > Point 82p
Nichushkin 50p < Stamkos 67p
Drouin 48p < Hagel 67p
Colton 36p < Cirelli 41p
Lehkonen 27p < Paul 39p

The "Bigger gap in points" I think is a silly argument.

 

[Crosby2010]

I think 100 assists should be an automatic Hart Trophy.

1988, 1989, 1990, 1991 are all examples of someone with at least 100 assists that didn't win. It is a nice shiny number but does the lower goal total compared to the other two go against McDavid? I think it might.

 

[Givememoneyback]

is there any actual evidence for "the media narrative is that MacKinnon is due" or is this something that angry posters have concocted and keep repeating to each other?

No and yes

Not for this season.

I agree with you, but tend to think team success weighs in on the award.

 

[Regal]

I've never really understood the there are more assists than goals hence goals are more valuable argument. It feels more like a semantic argument than a sound mathematical one.

There are less primary assists than goals and even less secondary assists... that doesn't mean secondary assists are the most valuable commodity.

A more convincing argument would be that goals can exist without assists... but almost always require a primary assist, and commonly also a secondary assist.

The best way to compare their value is look at repeatability, especially when changing teams. Goals ~ primary assists >> secondary assists is usually the result, although they are all valuable.

I think it also gets muddy when comparing superstars to complementary players. To some degree players at this level are going to take what’s given to them, whether that’s shooting or passing and so their totals can fluctuate depending on that without them necessarily being worse for having fewer goals. Also, if you’re driving play all the time, you’re going to garner secondary assists which I think can reflect that, whereas lesser players might just get them from passing off to better players.