Does the Art Ross change your Hart ballot for the 'Big 3'?

[Matsun]

Teammates	GP	P	PPG
Rantanen+Makar	145	181	1,25
Drai+Bouchard	146	175	1,20
Point+Hedman	144	153	1,06

I think Kucherov has the least help here.

 

[CanadienShark]

I just don’t get that mentality. Sure he was playing hurt but he was part of the horrible start. Not that he doesn’t have a case anyway, but the whole season production/record should be what matters not the comeback.


As for the question, I don’t think it changes much if they’re all within a couple points. Someone takes the lead by 8-10 or so it probably gets harder to justify the others.

Doesn't that illustrate just how valuable he is to his team?

 

[cupface52]

The definition of the award is "most valuable player". MacKinnon is by far the most valuable player to to Avalanche this year, and it's not even close.

Isn't Makar the current Norris favorite?

Kind of hard to be the most valuable player to your team when your #1 dman has a 50/50 shot of winning the Norris.

It'll be a "it's his turn to win" just like Matthews in '22. For McDavid to win anymore Hart trophys he needs to blow everyone away.

 

[The Macho King]

I honestly would put decent money on Kucherov ending up outside of the top 3 for the Hart.

 

[BLNY]

Two separate awards for different reasons. Winning one has nothing, and shouldn't have, to do with the other.

 

[blundluntman]

I think the narrative that its MacK's "turn" is set in stone...and narrative plays a large part in the Hart voting. Not that he isn't deserving, he has had a great year. IMO Kuch deserves it at this point...he has 45 more points than 2nd on his team...Mac and McD have 27 points over 2nd on their teams.

Pretty much. McDavid already has a plethora of awards and his legacy in all time rankings is already very well cemented so a Hart won't really tip the scale as much for him as it will for Mackinnon. A hart and art ross on Mackinnon's mantle does give him some clout in all time debates so I get why voters would rather give it to him than McDavid/Kucherov.

With that being said, I'd probably give it to McDavid given how good the Oilers have been since his resurgence. He's also been objectively outperforming Mackinnon/Kucherov since the Oilers started winning. I don't think McDavid should have to win the art ross to win the Hart this year. I also don't think voters will give it to someone else even if Mackinnon doesn't win the Art Ross; hell, they may give it to him specifically for that reason if anything.

 

[Leksand]

The point that narratives shouldn't matter is a fair

I think a lot of people are overrating Colorado’s season outside of MacKinnon. They’ve been better recently but for a lot of the year they weren’t very good and under 50% in GF% without MacKinnon on the ice (this might still be the case but I haven’t checked recently). I also think McDavid’s value to the Oilers this year is inflated by how we’ve thought of them historically. The team having a poor start wasn’t just on McDavid. Everything went wrong and they were also getting PDOed. They’ve been one of the best possession teams in the year this year overall and again last I checked have been better without McDavid on the ice than Colorado without MacKinnon. Both players are similarly valuable to their teams and both players have had similarly good seasons overall. It’s splitting hairs at this point.


Edit:

Just checked and before tonight’s game, at 5v5 the Avs had a 49GF% (88GF 93GA) without MacK on the ice, and the Oilers were at 51GF% (84GF 80GA) without McDavid on the ice. Both players were at 61GF% with them on the ice. The Oilers also have a better record when McDavid is held to a point or fewer (17-13-2) then the Avs when MacKinnon is held to a point or fewer (14-16-2 after tonight). MacKinnon has been in on 46% of the Avs goals while McDavid has been in on 48% of the Oilers goals. These things are all very close in terms of how much value they’ve brought to their teams. I think the idea that McDavid is far more valuable to his team doesn’t hold true this year like it has in other years.

The point that narratives shouldn't matter is fair and the numbers here are illuminating.

Still, narratives do matter and it seems MacKinnon has a major edge here as the PHWA seems to have decided in November that he deserves it as he's really good and Hall got it instead several years ago. To me that's much worse than narratives from the actual season the award is for.

Also, McDavid already won several so he's less deserving is a terrible narrative for losing out. (And of course if a Russian in Florida is a disadvantage that's even worse).

 

[Regal]

yeah but relative to kucherov and mcdavid?
Tampa without kuch and oilers without mcdavid are dumpster fires. Colorado without mackinnon is still a playoff team.

The Oilers are better with McDavid off the ice than the Avs with MacKinnon off the ice. This isn’t the Oilers of a couple years ago

 

[Leksand]

To go off the de facto topic and go on the actual topic of the thread:

I think it could make a significant difference if one of the players could pull away with a few points and win the Art Ross.

Closely related, if McKinnon reaches the magic 50 goals that will help his case.

 

[Golden_Jet]

The definition of the award is "most valuable player". MacKinnon is by far the most valuable player to to Avalanche this year, and it's not even close.

MacKinnon had a 27 point lead over closest rival on his team, Kucherov has a 45 point lead. Looks like Kuch is more valuable to his team.

To OP , Art Ross shouldn’t matter, it’s so close.

 

[Regal]

The point that narratives shouldn't matter is a fair

The point that narratives shouldn't matter is fair and the numbers here are illuminating.

Still, narratives do matter and it seems MacKinnon has a major edge here as the PHWA seems to have decided in November that he deserves it as he's really good and Hall got it instead several years ago. To me that's much worse than narratives from the actual season the award is for.

Also, McDavid already won several so he's less deserving is a terrible narrative for losing out. (And of course if a Russian in Florida is a disadvantage that's even worse).

Yea, narratives will always play a role because ultimately the voters are writers and the narratives are what make the story. I agree MacKinnon has had the inside edge for awhile, though I think it was more around the new year that it shifted (Kucherov was the bigger story the first couple months). I tend to agree with MacKinnon because I think he’s been the best player of the three ever so slightly, but the margin is so slim I think things can change in the stretch run here.

I also agree the “due” narrative for MacK isn’t a good reason to vote for him, nor are the reasons for excluding the other two very good. McDavid’s in-season narrative is the best even if I don’t agree with it being good either, so it’ll be interesting to see if it ends up helping him. A lot of the talk of MacKinnon being the favourite was when McDavid was still behind in the race. Now that he’s caught up, the narrative might shift again here.

Isn't Makar the current Norris favorite?

Kind of hard to be the most valuable player to your team when your #1 dman has a 50/50 shot of winning the Norris.

It'll be a "it's his turn to win" just like Matthews in '22. For McDavid to win anymore Hart trophys he needs to blow everyone away.

Hughes is still the favourite. But Makar being in the mix is solely due to point totals and reputation. He shouldn’t even be a finalist over Hughes, Josi and Fox as his numbers away from MacKinnon are horrible. The Ekholm-Bouchard pairing has been better than Toews-Makar this year.

 

[Juxta Position]

I think a lot of people are overrating Colorado’s season outside of MacKinnon. They’ve been better recently but for a lot of the year they weren’t very good and under 50% in GF% without MacKinnon on the ice (this might still be the case but I haven’t checked recently). I also think McDavid’s value to the Oilers this year is inflated by how we’ve thought of them historically. The team having a poor start wasn’t just on McDavid. Everything went wrong and they were also getting PDOed. They’ve been one of the best possession teams in the year this year overall and again last I checked have been better without McDavid on the ice than Colorado without MacKinnon. Both players are similarly valuable to their teams and both players have had similarly good seasons overall. It’s splitting hairs at this point.


Edit:

Just checked and before tonight’s game, at 5v5 the Avs had a 49GF% (88GF 93GA) without MacK on the ice, and the Oilers were at 51GF% (84GF 80GA) without McDavid on the ice. Both players were at 61GF% with them on the ice. The Oilers also have a better record when McDavid is held to a point or fewer (17-13-2) then the Avs when MacKinnon is held to a point or fewer (14-16-2 after tonight). MacKinnon has been in on 46% of the Avs goals while McDavid has been in on 48% of the Oilers goals. These things are all very close in terms of how much value they’ve brought to their teams. I think the idea that McDavid is far more valuable to his team doesn’t hold true this year like it has in other years.

So your saying the Oilers are NOT a one man team?....Ok, just gonna bookmark that for later discussions on this board.


This year is really the first year MacKinnon has legitimately put himself in the conversation with McDavid, that shouldn't be a reason to win the Hart trophy, but this year it will be. like others have stated the media has decided that it's his turn.

if any other player, say Pasternak, Panarin or the great JT Miller was in the exact position McDavid is in, about to do what only Gretzky, Lemieux and Orr have done by getting 100 assists on the season, that player would win in a landslide.

if McDavid is not lapping the field, winning by 20 or 30 points nowadays, someone else will win the trophy. McDavid has been so dominant that if another players point totals are close to his, that other player will win, just to keep it "fair" from the medias perspective.

Because McDavid is "expected" to put up insane numbers, the media looks for others to give the award to. It shouldn't matter if McDavid has won the award zero times or 10 times, doing something that's only been done by the 3 greatest players to ever play the game, should be enough to win the trophy, but it won't be because the media is tired of voting for him.

 

[Regal]

MacKinnon had a 27 point lead over closest rival on his team, Kucherov has a 45 point lead. Looks like Kuch is more valuable to his team.

To OP , Art Ross shouldn’t matter, it’s so close.

Focusing on one teammate isn’t a very good way to determine value. The only real difference between Point and Rantanen this year is PP assists due to their roles on the PP (Point in the bumper isn’t touching the puck as much). Kucherov has also had Hagel on his wing a bunch this year who’s been great at ES and Stamkos is still an elite PP finisher. Kucherov scores slightly more relative to his team (50% vs 46%), but MacKinnon improves his team to a greater degree 5v5 (61% vs 49% 5v5 GF% with him on and off the ice for MacK, 51% vs 43% for Kucherov). There’s a good argument for Kucherov being the most valuable but I think MacKinnon’s case is underrated by a lot of people.

 

[Regal]

So your saying the Oilers are NOT a one man team?....Ok, just gonna bookmark that for later discussions on this board.


This year is really the first year MacKinnon has legitimately put himself in the conversation with McDavid, that shouldn't be a reason to win the Hart trophy, but this year it will be. like others have stated the media has decided that it's his turn.

if any other player, say Pasternak, Panarin or the great JT Miller was in the exact position McDavid is in, about to do what only Gretzky, Lemieux and Orr have done by getting 100 assists on the season, that player would win in a landslide.

if McDavid is not lapping the field, winning by 20 or 30 points nowadays, someone else will win the trophy. McDavid has been so dominant that if another players point totals are close to his, that other player will win, just to keep it "fair" from the medias perspective.

Because McDavid is "expected" to put up insane numbers, the media looks for others to give the award to. It shouldn't matter if McDavid has won the award zero times or 10 times, doing something that's only been done by the 3 greatest players to ever play the game, should be enough to win the trophy, but it won't be because the media is tired of voting for him.

They’re not a one man team. They’ve been a strong team overall this year since the poor start. You don’t go 40-11-4 in your last 55 games by being a 1 man team. I don’t care how good the player is. The numbers are what they are and I showed them in the post. The Oilers used to be a terrible team with McDavid off the ice and that’s no longer the case. McDavid is still hugely valuable as I said, and all three have been similarly valuable to their teams.

And the idea that other players getting 100 assists would win in a landslide if everything else was the same is BS. Using the 100 assists is just as bad of an argument as dismissing McDavid for winning before. Having the same points but fewer goals isn’t better just because of the historical value of the assists.

 

[Cup or Bust]

I do think McDavid is the most valuable player overall but Kucherov and Mackinnon both have great cases as well. Looking at Colorado's forward roster for most of this season certainly makes a great case for MacKinnon. I don't think who outscores the other by 1 or 2 points should make any difference, quite frankly it would be stupid if it did. The major difference between McDavid, Kucherov, and Mackinnon for the Hart is while we can speculate how bad Tampa or Colorado would be if MacKinnon and Kucherov did not perform at a high level, we got a first hand view in front row seats this season how god awful bad the Oilers are if McDavid does not play at an elite level. All three at great candidates. I personally think MacKinnon and McDavid have the strongest cases and I think it will be between those two.

 

[El Travo]

McDavid is by far the most valuable player to the Oilers this year, and it’s not even close.

Did I say otherwise?

yeah but relative to kucherov and mcdavid?
Tampa without kuch and oilers without mcdavid are dumpster fires. Colorado without mackinnon is still a playoff team.

You'd be surprised. The Avs struggle heavily when MacKinnon doesn't have a multi-point night.

Isn't Makar the current Norris favorite?

Kind of hard to be the most valuable player to your team when your #1 dman has a 50/50 shot of winning the Norris.

It'll be a "it's his turn to win" just like Matthews in '22. For McDavid to win anymore Hart trophys he needs to blow everyone away.

Hughes is currently the favourite.

Even so, if that's the case then it should be also hard to be the most valuable player to your team when:

Another forward from the same team finishes Top 10 in Hart voting the same year...multiple times. (2019/20, 2020/21, 2022/23)

or

Another teammate wins the Vezina, and a teammate gets Top 3 voting in Norris. (2018/19)

MacKinnon had a 27 point lead over closest rival on his team, Kucherov has a 45 point lead. Looks like Kuch is more valuable to his team.

To OP , Art Ross shouldn’t matter, it’s so close.

Tampa Bay also has 5 players who have hit, or are 3 points away from 70. Colorado has 3. So let's not pretend that Kucherov is doing everything all on his own.

 

[Crosby2010]

If we go by the actual criteria for the Hart I think the winner would be Kucherov because there is a bigger gap between him and 2nd place Point (45 points) than MacKinnon or McDavid and their 2nd place player on their team.

Since it is a bit of a hybrid of the most valuable player and the best player in the NHL who had the best year then it gets a little muddier. I suspect the media doesn't like Kucherov all that much. McDavid has won a ton of major awards, and MacKinnon hasn't won any. So with all that in mind considering they are all so very close in points I think the edge goes to MacKinnon here.

 

[Strangle]

I have to say this is a two horse race between McDavid and mackinnon

Kucherov is scoring, but that’s a wildcard team who apparently have the best goalie in the world (bullshit, but whatever)

 

[wasup]

I value goals at 2-1 and when one guy is just about 20 behind the other two is makes it hard for me to consider him the fav to win the Hart . McD is the best player but it is a this year award and this year as a whole he is behind imo .

 

[Golden_Jet]

If we go by the actual criteria for the Hart I think the winner would be Kucherov because there is a bigger gap between him and 2nd place Point (45 points) than MacKinnon or McDavid and their 2nd place player on their team.

Since it is a bit of a hybrid of the most valuable player and the best player in the NHL who had the best year then it gets a little muddier. I suspect the media doesn't like Kucherov all that much. McDavid has won a ton of major awards, and MacKinnon hasn't won any. So with all that in mind considering they are all so very close in points I think the edge goes to MacKinnon here.

Ya, going by the definition of the trophy it’s Kucherov, but if voters don’t vote based on the definition, then maybe it should change to Most outstanding player (MOP) instead of best MVP to his team.

 

[Fledgemyhedge]

I value goals at 2-1 and when one guy is just about 20 behind the other two is makes it hard for me to consider him the fav to win the Hart . McD is the best player but it is a this year award and this year as a whole he is behind imo .

Goals are definitely worth more but double? Lol come on

 

[joestevens29]

I don't even know how much I care about Hart anymore or a lot of the awards for that matter. You have morons that have ridiculous votes year over year, yet are allowed to be able to vote year over year. Each city should have an equal amount of voters as well. But no you have places like Anaheim with 4 voters and than others like Toronto that have 2 dozen voters.

Give me the awards like Art Ross or Rocket Richard that are purely based on results that everyone can understand and of course the Stanley Cup.

 

[wasup]

Goals are definitely worth more but double? Lol come on

You get 2 assists for every goal , do the math .

 

[Fledgemyhedge]

You get 2 assists for every goal , do the math .

You don’t…. You can have 1 or even no assists for a goal. Nice math

 

[wasup]

You don’t…. You can have 1 or even no assists for a goal. Nice math

Holy crap I stand corrected . I value goals at 1.8795624 to 1 then after being corrected . Does that do it for ya .