Does Perry Need A Strong Finish to His Career to be A HHOF'er?

GreatGonzo

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He looks pretty solidly in to me.

- Hart Trophy
- Richard Trophy
- 2x First-Team All-Star
- Cup ring on a team where he was the 2nd-leading playoff scorer.
- 5x top-10 in goals
- 2x top-5 in points
- 2x Olympic Gold medalist
- WJC gold, World Championships Gold, Memorial Cup champion (and Memorial Cup MVP)
- One-team player who will retire as one of the most important players in the history of that franchise and finish with ~1000 points with that one team.

If he doesn't make it, that's the best resume of any non-HHOF player.

Forget bad inductees like Gillies and Duff. That's clearly a better resume than modern wingers like Bure, Neely, McDonald, Anderson, Ciccarelli, Barber, Shutt and centers like Lafontaine, Savard, Sittler, Federko.

When you can that easily name that many players in the last 30 years he comes ahead of ... he's going to be in.

The only reason for not inducting him is that his by-season scoring totals 'seem low' ... because he played in the lowest-scoring era in modern NHL history.
One of the biggest problems with Perry is his consistency and how short his dominance was. He doesn't have HOF stats when you really look at the bigger picture.

He had a great build up to his 2011 season, and that season alone put him in the HOF discussion, but he didn't follow that season up with much. He will be very lucky to hit 1000 points and by the rate he is scoring, 500 goals.

He has, for the most part, been a great goal scorer, but IMO nothing significant.
 

GreatGonzo

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i have to admit, i had to look that one up to verify it. surprised the hell out of me.

to be fair, perry was tied for 2nd with pronger and selanne. one bounce or assist goes the other way and he's tied with mcdonald for 4th. and it was 15 points in 21 games on a very deep team, with nine double-digit playoff scorers, so it's not like he finished 2nd in scoring the way crosby finished 2nd on the penguins last year.

perry also was 8th in icetime among forwards on that team, a full 49 seconds behind 7th place (travis moen). for all intents and purposes, he, getzlaf, and penner played sheltered third line minutes, behind the selanne/mcdonald/kunitz line, who faced the toughest checking; and niedermayer/pahlsson/moen, who took on the opposition's best.

not saying he was nothing in '07, or that it doesn't help his HHOF case, but i think he was considerably less than "Cup ring on a team where he was the 2nd-leading playoff scorer" makes it sound like.
It's definitely an odd standard to make for his HOF worthiness. I don't see how being the 2ns line Winger with 15 points in 21 games on a very deep Anaheim team is going to make the voters jump to his induction.
 

MS

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One of the biggest problems with Perry is his consistency and how short his dominance was. He doesn't have HOF stats when you really look at the bigger picture.

He had a great build up to his 2011 season, and that season alone put him in the HOF discussion, but he didn't follow that season up with much. He will be very lucky to hit 1000 points and by the rate he is scoring, 500 goals.

He has, for the most part, been a great goal scorer, but IMO nothing significant.

Virtually nobody who started their career post-1995 hits 500 goals anymore. If that's your barometer, it's too high. Only 4 players who started their career post-1995 have more than 450 goals, and amongst players with more than 350 only Crosby is likely to get there.

HHOF stats from a players in the 2000s-2010s aren't the same as players from the 1980s-1990s.
 

Nick Hansen

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Nothing about his play stands out as being HHOF-worthy. Decent stats, sure, but I think time will make it look worse (less points but more games as the years go). People sneaze at Kovalchuk being a HHOFer for god's sake...Perry isn't even close IMO.
 
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GreatGonzo

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Virtually nobody who started their career post-1995 hits 500 goals anymore. If that's your barometer, it's too high. Only 4 players who started their career post-1995 have more than 450 goals, and amongst players with more than 350 only Crosby is likely to get there.

HHOF stats from a players in the 2000s-2010s aren't the same as players from the 1980s-1990s.
Ok, so how far are we willing to lower the bar in terms of goals to allow Perry to appear significant?

I understand 500 goals is much harder to achieve, but that doesn't mean that we lower the standards to accommodate certain players. Marleau has 518 goals, Nash has 417....and I highly doubt those two make the Hall.

Perry has been a consistent goal scorer, but nothing to call HOF worthy.
 

McDonald19

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He had 19 goals last season, he is on pace for 18 this season.

Very doubtful he gets to 500 goals. 450 is now looking like a challenge.
 

McDonald19

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I used to be a big fan, but he just looks slow and unmotivated now (16-17 and 17-18 so far).

How bad can he be in his 30s and still get in?
 

MS

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Ok, so how far are we willing to lower the bar in terms of goals to allow Perry to appear significant?

I understand 500 goals is much harder to achieve, but that doesn't mean that we lower the standards to accommodate certain players. Marleau has 518 goals, Nash has 417....and I highly doubt those two make the Hall.

Perry has been a consistent goal scorer, but nothing to call HOF worthy.

He's been top-10 in goals 5 times including 1st and 2nd place finishes. That's 'elite', not 'consistent' and better than a host of players in the HHOF.

Marleau is a pure compiler. Nash has a Tkachuk-level playoff resume.

If Perry gets to 450 goals in this era with a peak like he has and an MVP? That's really good.
 
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vadim sharifijanov

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one thought experiment might be to pretend perry finishes 3rd in goals, points, and hart voting in 2011 (he did actually finish 3rd in points). then how would we think about his chances?

it's weird, his hart trophy is just such an aberration relative to the rest of his career. i like perry a lot, but if his two month hot streak was a little less hot, i think we'd be a lot cooler on him as a potential hall of famer.

or hell, we could even give perry the same 50 goals that season. if stamkos doesn't go ice cold and only score 5 goals and 19 points in his last 28 games of that season (after potting 40 goals in his first 54 games), perry doesn't with the rocket. does he still win the hart, or does that go to daniel? does it go to st. louis?

point is, if we normalize perry's career year even just a little, it pulls a lot less weight. and that raises the methodological question of how much a guy's HHOF candidacy should rest on a two month sample (that wasn't even in the playoffs)?

but i do like perry enough that if he becomes patrick marleau for the rest of his career and plays forever and consistently pounds out adjusted 30 goal seasons and makes it to all the good statistical thresholds, then fantastic i don't think any of us should argue that he's a hall of famer. with his high peak seasons, plus career numbers and team accomplishments he's a more legit version of joe nieuwendyk.
 
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Michael Farkas

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"Rangers haven't had talent on the blue line since Leetch?" What? McDonaugh, Girardi, Del Zotto, Staal, Falk, Boyle, Yandle?

McDonagh - not a great transition d-man or puck carrier. Better defensively.

Girardi - a zero offensively.

MDZ - low hockey sense, highly inconsistent player. Long pass ability when confident, fringe NHLer when not.

Staal - basically Girardi

Falk - lol not an NHL player.

Boyle - gotten past his expiry. Way past.

Yandle - first and only good name you mention in terms of transition hockey. Misused by AV. "Rhythm" player that played too low minutes and seemed restrained by system on puck carrying. Just what the doctor ordered and they blew it.

So, yes, no talent. And no real good transition centers either...
 

GreatGonzo

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He's been top-10 in goals 5 times including 1st and 2nd place finishes. That's 'elite', not 'consistent' and better than a host of players in the HHOF.

Marleau is a pure compiler. Nash has a Tkachuk-level playoff resume.

If Perry gets to 450 goals in this era with a peak like he has and an MVP? That's really good.
With 2/5 of those years being somewhat significant. I have a hard time seeing a 9th and 10th place finish with 33 and 34 goals "elite."

How is Marleau a compiler? Do you even know what that means? He's been a solid and consistent goal scorer....not a compiler. Not to mention Marleau started out his career in the early DPE days.

He still needs to get there regardless, and like I said earlier, he's only getting older and his game is scoring is going down. His peak is awesome obviously, but if we were to just induct players based on a peak year with decent-good years surrounding it, with a ton of team trophies, the Hall would only become weaker.
 

quoipourquoi

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point is, if we normalize perry's career year even just a little, it pulls a lot less weight. and that raises the methodological question of how much a guy's HHOF candidacy should rest on a two month sample (that wasn't even in the playoffs)?

I think there's a difference between normalize and minimize, and I think often Perry's 2010-11 is subjected to the latter. At the end of October, his pace would have put him at 7th in goals and 7th in points. By the end of December, his pace would have put him at 5th in goals and 5th in points. I think it gets defined as a two-month sample when from the very start, it was never going to be anything less than a 1st Team All-Star selection like he had in 2013-14.

He turned on the jets in February and March (21 goals, 38 points in 25 games) to boost a non-playoff team into having home-ice advantage, yes, but would there be any effort to "normalize" his season if he had a hot streak in October and November instead? Probably not, because we're proposing an alternate version of events where Steven Stamkos - who had a Perry-esque hot streak in October and November (21 goals, 40 points in 25 games) - scores at least 6 more goals and 8 more points to overtake Perry.

Even the thought experiment where Perry finishes 3rd in goals is a little far fetched. That's 8 less - 16% of his total.
 

cupcrazyman

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Currently Perry is #143 in goals
Not in the top 144 in assists
Not in the top 148 in points

Some Hall of Fame career
 

Zegras Zebra

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Corey Perry currently has 4 seasons left on his contract. Lets assume he decides to retire at the end of his contract for sake of argument.

At the end of last season Perry had 349 goals, 368 assists, and 717 points in 886 NHL games.

It seems reasonable that Perry can achieve 20 goals and 25 assists per season minimum over the next four years if you account for a decline (If Perry plays every game).

This would add an additional 80 goals, 100 assists, and 180 points to his career total so Perry would finish with 429 goals, 468 assists, and 897 points in 1,214 games.

If Perry finishes with these totals it is good for 0.353 goals per game and 0.739 points per game in his NHL career. Based on his era, and the performance of his peers, are these HHOF numbers? Maybe because of the low scoring nature of this era. Since 2005-06, there have only been 20 individual seasons where a player has scored 50 or more goals. Ovechkin has 7, Stamkos has 2, Kovalchuk has 2, Heatley has 2, Cheechoo, Jagr, Lecavalier, Crosby, Iginla, Malkin and Perry each has 1. That is 11 players in a 12 season stretch. That is impressive.

Currently Perry has 36 goals, 53 assists, for 89 points in 114 playoff games. This accounts for 0.316 goals per game, and 0.781 points per game. He also has double digit points finishes in five of his ten post season appearances, but that could have resulted from Anaheim's general strength while Perry has been with the club.

A lot has been made of Perry relying to heavily on Getzlaf for his production. I'm not sure if this hurts his HHOF case or not to greatly in the long run. Also Getzlaf was injured during part of Perry's Hart season to use it as an example that Perry was a great player in his own right.

Since a big factor in Perry's case is the quality and quantity of his individual/ team/ international performances lets look at what he has currently accomplished.

Individual:
2010-11 Hart
2010-11 Rocket
2010-11 NHL First All Star
2013-14 NHL First All Star

Team:
2004-05 Memorial Cup (London Knights)
2006-07 Stanley Cup (Anaheim Ducks)

International (Canada)
2004-05 World Junior (Gold)
2010 Olympic (Gold)
2014 Olympic (Gold)
2016 IIHF World Championships (Gold)
2016 World Cup of Hockey (Gold)

If I remember correctly only Scott Niedermayer has won the Memorial Cup, World Juniors, WCOH, and is a member of the Triple Gold club. It is easy to poke holes in Perry's silverware resume because he has two elite seasons individually, was a young arguably protected player on the 2007 Ducks, and had a minor role in the 2014 Olympic and the 2016 WCOH gold winning teams. However, you cannot overlook the fact that Perry made these stacked Team Canada rosters over many great NHLers.

Overall I think he gets in, I just don't see a large enough group of players from the 2000's and 2010's who were better than Perry to prevent him from getting into the HHOF. Plus his international resume is outstanding, and the HHOF committee loves a winner. If Perry can win another Stanley Cup he is a lock in my opinion. Although I am a biased Ducks fan so there is that.
 

DitchMarner

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I bet there is no single player who has ever been a top three goal scorer (in terms of volume) during a ten season stretch that is not or will not be in the the HHOF. I will check now.

Edit:

Since Jagr, Iginla, Crosby, Ovechkin and Hossa will be inducted into the HHOF, the only players ever to have been in the top three for goal scoring over any ten season stretch in NHL history who will or may not be in the HHOF are:


Lorne Carr

https://www.hockey-reference.com/players/c/carrlo01.html

Herb Cain

https://www.hockey-reference.com/players/c/cainhe01.html

Gary Unger

https://www.hockey-reference.com/players/u/ungerga01.html

Peter Bondra

Keith Tkachuk

Ilya Kovalchuk

Dany Heatley

Rick Nash

Corey Perry

Steven Stamkos


The way Stamkos is playing, it looks like he'll get into the HHOF eventually.

Carr, Cain and Unger all retired without winning any awards. Carr and Cain won two Cups each.

We can give Bondra two "retro" Rocket Richards as he did lead the NHL in goals twice.

Tkachuk gets one retro Rocket Richard.

Kovalchuk won an actual Rocket Richard. So did Nash.

Heatley won the Calder.

Perry has his RR, Hart and Stanley Cup.
 
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vadim sharifijanov

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I think he's too young for this to be considered history.

imo, maybe we should have an all-purpose "is x a hall of famer" thread? because more often than not they are really not discussions about the player but referendums about HHOF criteria.

also, arguing about the HHOF can be fun and all, i think it's important to remember we can ask different kinds of questions in this forum too.

While LW is a weak position he did compete vid Alex. Add an olympic gold and juniors gold and his resume looks quite good already.

i think it's fair to call LW the weak position from, say, 1970 up to the full-season lockout. but since then, LW has been every bit as legit as RW, if not sometimes more.
 

GreatGonzo

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I was being sarcastic and saying there's more to it than career totals.

I don't think Andreychuk should even have been inducted.
I understand. The biggest problem with Perry will be his career totals though, at least IMO.

Career totals aren't the end all-be all to a HOF resume, but it certainly helps. Guys like Lindros, Forsberg, and even Bure May not have the career totals, but their peaks made up for that.

Much like Andreychuks career stats got him into the Hall, Perrys team trophies would have the same affect, not his stats.
 

vadim sharifijanov

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I think there's a difference between normalize and minimize, and I think often Perry's 2010-11 is subjected to the latter. At the end of October, his pace would have put him at 7th in goals and 7th in points. By the end of December, his pace would have put him at 5th in goals and 5th in points. I think it gets defined as a two-month sample when from the very start, it was never going to be anything less than a 1st Team All-Star selection like he had in 2013-14.

He turned on the jets in February and March (21 goals, 38 points in 25 games) to boost a non-playoff team into having home-ice advantage, yes, but would there be any effort to "normalize" his season if he had a hot streak in October and November instead? Probably not, because we're proposing an alternate version of events where Steven Stamkos - who had a Perry-esque hot streak in October and November (21 goals, 40 points in 25 games) - scores at least 6 more goals and 8 more points to overtake Perry.

Even the thought experiment where Perry finishes 3rd in goals is a little far fetched. That's 8 less - 16% of his total.

my point with that thought experiment was not to take away, or as you say minimize, perry's career year. the point was to bring it a little closer to what we'd imagine a career year for a player like him would look like, then (obviously, i thought) give him back those achievements and accolades and think about that gap.

as you say, he was 7th in october, 5th in december. yes, that is still a career year for perry (basically even with his '14 season, as you suggest), even without that crazy streak. so i think we're saying exactly the same thing, or interpreting the data in exactly the same way: there is a "normal" career year for perry, which he already was having, and then there is an improbable, anomalous career year for perry, which his mid-february to mid-april streak turned his season into.

to respond to your other points in order, i think a perry who doesn't win the rocket probably also isn't first team all-star. but then, all my cards on the table, then and now i firmly believe that the rightful hart winner that season was martin st. louis, so that's my first team all-star RW as well. even when stamkos almost completely dried up, MSL was still scoring at the same rate.

if perry had the hot streak in october/november instead of february/march? daniel sedin probably wins the hart trophy. i've pointed out many times that guys who get on hot streaks at the end of the season, especially when they either overtake the season-long leader for the art ross or come very close to it, win hart trophies. forsberg in '03, thornton in '06, henrik sedin in '10. you could also include '02 theodore, though obviously there was no scoring race to challenge for in that case. (the exceptions to that rule? when the player's team doesn't make the playoffs; see, '13 MSL, '15 jamie benn.) in the alternate scenario where perry scores out of his mind early on, then "only" scores at a slightly above a point/game pace the rest of the way, daniel sedin "catches" him at the end of the year, while of course also leading the league's best team to the #1 offense, #1 powerplay, and running away with the presidents trophy.

as for stamkos, i don't think it's fair to say that early-season stamkos had a "perry-esque hot streak." if anything, more fair to call what perry did a "stamkos-esque hot streak," considering that for perry that was a once-in-a-career streak, whereas stamkos has shown himself to be capable of that level of scoring many times in his career, including, well, right now.

it's a minor point in the grand scheme of things, but i'll repeat that stamkos scored 5 goals and 19 points in his last 28 games of that season (after potting 40 goals in his first 54 games). at no other time in stamkos' career other than his rookie season and right now (as he is averaging 1.5 assists a game) has he ever scored less than a goal every other game. even at a conservative pace, we would give him 14 goals in those last 28 games. add the extra nine goals to his season total and he wins the rocket with 54 goals.

and to your last point, if you take away the hot streak from february to the end of the season, perry has 25 goals, 26 assists, 51 points, 52 games. basically, a goal every other game, and a point a game. which, again, basically equals his second best season. so if we "normalize" the hot streak (25 goals, 22 assists, 47 points in 30 games), we're shaving off ten goals. that leaves him at 40, below daniel sedin and ryan kesler for fourth. okay, it's not third, but there is no possible third this year.
 
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DitchMarner

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I understand. The biggest problem with Perry will be his career totals though, at least IMO.

Career totals aren't the end all-be all to a HOF resume, but it certainly helps. Guys like Lindros, Forsberg, and even Bure May not have the career totals, but their peaks made up for that.

Much like Andreychuks career stats got him into the Hall, Perrys team trophies would have the same affect, not his stats.

He did have a very high peak as well, however. He certainly peaked higher than Andreychuk and some other Hall of Famers.

Granted, his peak was sort of a one season thing, although he did follow it up with another very strong season in 2014.

I can see the arguments against his induction, but I think that if he at least puts himself in that 900-1000 point range when his career is done, his final career stats won't be low enough to keep him out. Lanny McDonald made it in and he barely crossed the 1000 point mark even though he played in the 70s and 80s (a much higher scoring era).

Also, while his point production hasn't been consistently elite, he has placed in the top ten for goals a number of times and is the third highest scorer of the last ten seasons. One can argue for his induction based on his goal scoring prowess, peak seasons and ample team success. Neely was never a great overall point scorer, but he was inducted because of his goal scoring and power game alone.

Mullen is another player who made it in even though he didn't have very many truly elite seasons and he didn't put up tremendous career numbers. He was a good player who had some big playoff runs and won some Cups. Perry counters Mullen's superior Cup count and playoff performances with his shiny international resume and individual awards. Perry has more individual awards than Mullen and more finishes in the top ten for goals and the top five/ten for points.

I do think Perry will need to boost his career totals to be a Hall of Famer. He will need well over 400 goals and 900 points. But he shouldn't need to compile Andreychuk or Ciccarelli type numbers to be inducted.

Unlike Dave Andreychuk, he was a premiere forward in the NHL... even if it was only for a couple of seasons. He was a straight up much better player than Andreychuk or Ciccarelli at his peak.

There aren't many Hart winners or players who have been top three goal scorers over a ten season stretch in NHL history who ae not in the HHOF.

I outlined the players who were top three goal scorers over a ten year stretch in NHL history that may not get into the HHOF in my post above ^. I think Stamkos will eventually be inducted if he continues playing the way he is.

Of the rest, wouldn't Perry stand the best chance? Or would Kovalchuk be a better candidate?

The NHL is definitely going to want some forwards from the mid 1990s to mid 2000 drafts to be inducted into the HHOF. Perry will have a better shot than many others if he finishes up his career reasonably well.
 
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GreatGonzo

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He did have a very high peak as well, however. He certainly peaked higher than Andreychuk and some other Hall of Famers.

Granted, his peak was sort of a one season thing, although he did follow it up with another very strong season in 2014.

I can see the arguments against his induction, but I think that if he at least puts himself in that 900-1000 point range when his career is done, his final career stats won't be low enough to keep him out. Lanny McDonald made it in and he barely crossed the 1000 point mark even though he played in the 70s and 80s (a much higher scoring era).

Also, while his point production hasn't been consistently elite, he has placed in the top ten for goals a number of times and is the third highest scorer of the last ten seasons. One can argue for his induction based on his goal scoring prowess, peak seasons and ample team success. Neely was never a great overall point scorer, but he was inducted because of his goal scoring and power game alone.

Mullen is another player who made it in even though he didn't have very many truly elite seasons and he didn't put up tremendous career numbers. He was a good player who had some big playoff runs and won some Cups. Perry counters Mullen's superior Cup count and playoff performances with his shiny international resume and individual awards. Perry has more individual awards than Mullen and more finishes in the top ten for goals and the top five/ten for points.

I do think Perry will need to boost his career totals to be a Hall of Famer. He will need well over 400 goals and 900 points. But he shouldn't need to compile Andreychuk or Ciccarelli type numbers to be inducted.

Unlike Dave Andreychuk, he was a premiere forward in the NHL... even if it was only for a couple of seasons. He was a straight up much better player than Andreychuk or Ciccarelli at his peak.

There aren't many Hart winners or players who have been top three goal scorers over a ten season stretch in NHL history who ae not in the HHOF.

I outlined the players who were top three goal scorers over a ten year stretch in NHL history that may not get into the HHOF in my post above ^. I think Stamkos will eventually be inducted if he continues playing the way he is.

Of the rest, wouldn't Perry stand the best chance? Or would Kovalchuk be a better candidate?

The NHL is definitely going to want some forwards from the mid 1990s to mid 2000 drafts to be inducted into the HHOF. Perry will have a better shot than many others if he finishes up his career reasonably well.
I mean I know I'm not alone with this opinion, but name dropping somewhat weak to "what are they thinking!" HOF inductees to further a case for Perry, is simply going about it all the wrong ways and further keeps that cycle going.... you know...."well, if player A is in the hall, then why not player B?"

Perrys peak is awesome. No one can deny a Hart and Rocket as prestigious and huge honors. But that was simply one year....

Guys like Andreychuk and Ciccarelli are compilers, which is why they both had to wait a significant amount of time before being inducted. It's partly due to less and less "deserving" players being out of the game, so they dug to the bottom of the barrel.

I don't necessarily agree with Neely but I understand it. Neely had a lot of things going for him. He was a somewhat "unique" player as a power forward who revolutionized the position. Because for many, when you think of THE power forward, you think Neely. At his peak he was one of the best goal scorers, wingers, along with being a physical force. His 50 in 49 paved the way for him as well as building the "mystic" of him as a player because his career was cut short due to injuries. Add good press and his overall persona. But remember he still had to wait 10 years to be inducted.

Joe Mullen was a part of 3 cups, finished his career a PPG with 500+ goals. He has a First team AS honor. What you don't realize as well is that Mullen is also an American, and at the time of his retirement('97), he was first in overall points and second in goals among American players....making him one of the best American players of all time. So sure, Perry peaked higher with a Hart, but Mullen was much more consistent and has better overall stats, especially among American players.

Lanny McDonald finished his career('89) 23rd in points and 14th in goals(5th in goals, 5th in points, and 9th in assists among RWers). He already at the stats to compete for the Hall, but yes his cup win I feel did push him over the edge.
 
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