Line Combos: Does Nylander at 3C solve depth issues?

[The CyNick]

Nylander on the 3rd line is a waste, no matter what position. He is a legit 1st line winger.

Kadri was perfect at the 3 C. It had Toronto with the deepest C core in the NHL.

Matthews
Tavares
Kadri

This is accurate

 

[The Podium]

Okay, well I watched a lot of Tampa because I had Kuch, Point, and Killorn in fantasy. They ran most of the season something similar to this as their top-6:

Palat-Point-Kuch
Killorn-Cirelli-Stamkos

The reason why it looked like that yesterday was because Stamkos was coming back from injury. They have solid players everywhere because their lack of tax made it so they could save ~1M on all of the Kuch/Point/Hedman/Stamkos contracts, which allows them to have a Blake Coleman on the 3rd line and still be able to have McDonagh, Vas, Killorn, Johnson, etc.

There's no possible reason to devoid one of Matthews/Tavares from getting one of Nylander/Marner on their line. It would just mean Nylander (arguably our 2nd best player last season) would play significantly less 5v5, and away from one of our superstars. It would be crippling our elite 2 lines to make 1 elite line and two good ones.

Nylander would be playing with out superstars on special teams.

Depth ruined us and we have no long term solution at 2C. Transitioning Nylander there now while also providing a constant threat and pulling away top 4 Ds from one of the top 3 lines may be the solution. We dont have the players to make a net neutral 3rd line at this point.

 

[justashadowof]

And theyre out. Tampa last night was running:

Palat - Point - Kucherov
Killorn - Cirelli - Johnson
Goodrow - Gourde - Coleman
Maroon - Paquette - Stamkos

Good player driving each of their 4th lines with another good player and a role player on each.

The Leafs are never going to have that depth of scoring spread through the lineup when their top 4 stars make $40.5 M AAV compared to Tampa's top 4 stars making $29M AAV. That $11.5M is literally Gourde, Killorn and Coleman.

 

[kevsh]

The pro argument is this team (arguably) looked the best when they had Matthews/Tavares/Kadri - as solid a 1-2-3 punch as any team in the league. And remember Kadri had a great year with a rookie Marner on his wing. They had 3 lines that could score and that made it really tough to match up against.

Sure, the result in the playoffs was the same but a team that can put out a line that can produce offense 50+ minutes out of 60 is dangerous. Problem is, as others have pointed out, Nylander is not that guy - at least at center.

If Keefe comes up with a way to spread Matthews/Tavares/Marner/Nylander over 3 lines that all produce, I'm all for it. Otherwise, stack the top two and find the right players to form a TB-like 3rd line that brings energy and any goals are a plus ... After solving the RD problem of course.

 

[Morgs]

Nylander would be playing with out superstars on special teams.

Depth ruined us and we have no long term solution at 2C. Transitioning Nylander there now while also providing a constant threat and pulling away top 4 Ds from one of the top 3 lines may be the solution. We dont have the players to make a net neutral 3rd line at this point.

What crushed us was our lack of meaningful depth. Not only were they not producing, they were also not playing well defensively. Buying defense is FAR cheaper than buying offense, and it's just as valuable. It's the reason why I believe Chayka was actually doing a good job because of the lack of funds in AZ.

If you have two elite lines, you're already ahead of virtually every team in the league other than Tampa & Pittsburgh. The question then becomes do you sewer one of those lines to have one elite one, and two good ones, or do you try and be like Boston/Colorado (who are two of the only 4 teams in the league I think are as good or better than us) and STACK your top-6 with all your stars and play net neutral with the bottom-6.

It's so easy to look through FA, our team, and undervalued players on other teams and grab guys with strong defensive impacts at under $1M cap. You could honestly run something like this and it would overall have a better impact than last season with a much lower cap hit:

Mikheyev(RFA)-Matthews-Nylander
Hyman-Tavares-Marner
Robertson-J. Larsson (UFA)- Engvall
Rodrigues(UFA)-Jankowski (RFA)-Spezza(UFA)

 

[Jeffrey Pedler]

I don't get this love affair for Nylander at Centre? Especially as a third line centre, making 7 million dollars. Matthews and Tavares each need a right winger (Nylander and Marner), who can get them the puck. The left winger on each of their lines should be a player like Hyman.

 

[Mess]

My suggestion earlier was to balance the offense across 3 lines by putting your $11 mil players all on different lines.

XXX - Matthews - XXX
XXX - Tavares ---- XXX
XXX - Nylander - Marner

Depth scoring is a problem with 4 players making 1/2 your cap but if you split them across your top 9 it would be difficult for the opposition to plan a strategy to keep 3 lines in check.

 

[Morgs]

My suggestion earlier was to balance the offense across 3 lines by putting your $11 mil players all on different lines.

XXX - Matthews - XXX
XXX - Tavares ---- XXX
XXX - Nylander - Marner

Depth scoring is a problem with 4 players making 1/2 your cap but if you split them across your top 9 it would be difficult for the opposition to plan a strategy to keep 3 lines in check.

Spreading yourself thin though could make the lines less impactful as a whole, which means we aren't going to be getting elite impact from our top-6 AND we won't have the depth to make it up.

 

[kb]

Spreading yourself thin though could make the lines less impactful as a whole, which means we aren't going to be getting elite impact from our top-6 AND we won't have the depth to make it up.

Yeah, I go back and forth on this too. I don't know exactly what side I fall on yet. Hard to tell without actually seeing it in action.

 

[nuck]

A $7M player getting 3rd line minutes. Plus no grit, no pk and not great on faceoffs. You don't get full value for Willie out of the top 6,just like Kadri except worse.

 

[Mess]

A $7M player getting 3rd line minutes. Plus no grit, no pk and not great on faceoffs. You don't get full value for Willie out of the top 6,just like Kadri except worse.

Leafs really have to play both Marner and Nylander with elite #1C otherwise you can't validate their contracts nor cap hits as they won't produce enough points.

If Kadri was too costly at $4.5 mil then Nylander at $7 mil for your #3C is putting yourself in a even weaker position.

My only solution to resolve this is to put Marner on the wing with Nylander and splitting your $11 mil players across 3 lines, and hoping together you get the offense required to validate that cap hit cost and then not cannibalize your other 2 lines where you have $11 mil centres and need them to produce at top 10-15 scorers to validate their contracts.

Creating a strong top 9 (3 lines) has validity in design, but with a top heavy spending team it has its downside as well.

 

[gabeliscious]

My suggestion earlier was to balance the offense across 3 lines by putting your $11 mil players all on different lines.

XXX - Matthews - XXX
XXX - Tavares ---- XXX
XXX - Nylander - Marner

Depth scoring is a problem with 4 players making 1/2 your cap but if you split them across your top 9 it would be difficult for the opposition to plan a strategy to keep 3 lines in check.

1. Matthews is a baby and will bitch if has bad linemates. I don't think the Leafs can make him happy without one of Nylander or Marner with him. Matthews has not demonstrated from what I have seen that he can improve the play of his linemates. He may be able to carry a line and still put up points but he is not going to elevate mid 6 wingers the same way Crosby does or even Tavares for that matter.

2. there is only so much ice time to go around in the game. given the construction of the team, we are better off having the top lines stacked and playing 2/3 + of the game. imo having to deal with Matthews-Marner or Tavares-Nylander for 40-45 mins a night should be an issue for most teams int he NHL.

3. Looking at our depth players, I don't actually think scoring should be too much of an issue. a 3rd line of Robertson-Kerfoot-Barbanov should be able to put up points. The bigger question imo is can they hold their own defensively. I don't believe Kerfoot is strong enough defensively to be our 3rd line center.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Nylander on the 3rd line is a waste, no matter what position. He is a legit 1st line winger.

Kadri was perfect at the 3 C. It had Toronto with the deepest C core in the NHL.

Matthews
Tavares
Kadri

Ya but he was prone to doing stupid things.

 

[Mickey Marner]

I think he's more of a sidekick forward. I would rather fill that role with a more traditional 3C skillset. e.g. Bolland, Eller, Coyle, Jenner, Lowry etc.

 

[Notsince67]

No surprise that the cap is tight, even more so if the Leafs do in fact sign AP. I know a lot of posters here have concerns about the bottom 6 depth but would a shuffling of the players we already have solve that issue?

I know it has been discussed in other threads but lets get it all in one place.

With 3 strong Cs and at least 1 good winger per line, the other winger can take a bit of a hit and the Leafs can still ice a balanced lineup.

XXXX - Matthews - Marner
Robertson - Tavares - XXXX
Mikheyev - Nylander - Hyman

The XXXXs likely have to be filled by a combination of league minimum vets (Maroon?) or players in the system (Barabanov?)

We already have a weak defensive unit. Team needs centers willing to give hits in the d zone. Willy ain't that guy.

 

[Havoc]

Nylander didnt look good at center. He's a winger.

I guess worst case scenario he could play there, but he's better off playing with Tavares.

It was one game after a 5 month break in a game 5 where he didn't play center in over a year.

I'd have been shocked if Nylander played well that game.

Give him a run at C and I bet he gets comfortable after a couple weeks.

 

[Menzinger]

Unless the team would transition to three balanced lines, it would likely do more harm than good.

It would take away offensive power from the top 2 lines, and would lessen Nylander's ability to contribute as his usage and icetime would end up reduced.

Nylanders chemistry with Tavares/Matthews is a more effective way to maximize the players talents for the teams benefit

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

not really. The risk with going cheap in the bottom 6 is that it's not good when they have to move up in the lineup if a top 6 player gets injured/sick/whatever

 

[Menzinger]

My suggestion earlier was to balance the offense across 3 lines by putting your $11 mil players all on different lines.

XXX - Matthews - XXX
XXX - Tavares ---- XXX
XXX - Nylander - Marner

Depth scoring is a problem with 4 players making 1/2 your cap but if you split them across your top 9 it would be difficult for the opposition to plan a strategy to keep 3 lines in check.

There woukd definitely be a logic to this, but its not without its own set of issues.

Strips Matthews and Tavares playmakers away from them, and Marner/Nylander may have chemistry issues at 5v5 (or not, but they've never really played with one another here).

 

[Trapper]

The Leafs are never going to have that depth of scoring spread through the lineup when their top 4 stars make $40.5 M AAV compared to Tampa's top 4 stars making $29M AAV. That $11.5M is literally Gourde, Killorn and Coleman.

You worry too much.
All we have to do is wait for these 4 guys to get a little older and bam...

 

[gabeliscious]

not really. The risk with going cheap in the bottom 6 is that it's not good when they have to move up in the lineup if a top 6 player gets injured/sick/whatever

if the 3rd line is Robertson-xxxx-Barbarov, I think both could slide up to the 2nd line if needed due to injury. With the cap how it is, no matter what, the depth is going to be affected. In our case though it comes at the cost of having premium top end talent so it is worth it. it is hard to set up the system to succeed if there is injury to any key piece. i think just about any team would struggle if they lost their top players for a long period of time.

i think the bigger concern is not the bottom 6 but the top 4. rielly and muzzin cannot do it on their own. while pietrangelo would be first price, we may be ok with adding a brodie/tanev. having another reliable top 4 defense would make all the difference I think.

 

[CertifiedGoat]

It was one game after a 5 month break in a game 5 where he didn't play center in over a year.

I'd have been shocked if Nylander played well that game.

Give him a run at C and I bet he gets comfortable after a couple weeks.

He's never looked good at center. He's not even remotely aware enough defensively to play up the middle.

 

[kb]

You worry too much.
All we have to do is wait for these 4 guys to get a little older and bam...

Way better than the 'trading them away and watch them break out' option.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

Leafs really have to play both Marner and Nylander with elite #1C otherwise you can't validate their contracts nor cap hits as they won't produce enough points.

If Kadri was too costly at $4.5 mil then Nylander at $7 mil for your #3C is putting yourself in a even weaker position.

My only solution to resolve this is to put Marner on the wing with Nylander and splitting your $11 mil players across 3 lines, and hoping together you get the offense required to validate that cap hit cost and then not cannibalize your other 2 lines where you have $11 mil centres and need them to produce at top 10-15 scorers to validate their contracts.

Creating a strong top 9 (3 lines) has validity in design, but with a top heavy spending team it has its downside as well.

Yeah he said third line minutes drop his chances of pointing up. Wonderful you have Marner down to third line. Wow

 

[moon111]

How many times could a team play good defense, get one of their goalies some good stats, and then trade them to the Leafs who would be thinking that would continue with no defensive game?
The Leafs should be doing this as well. Take a 4th line winger with the worst assist rate for any Leaf forward ever, put them on a line with Matthews and then trade them back to Pittsburgh.
I would put Nylander on the 3rd line to see if they could inflate some offensive stats with these average skilled players and then deal them off.