Does Malkin's 2012-13 KHL season add to his legacy?

[Canadiens1958]

Comparable

No actually we aren't when you look at the claim in bold.

Ribeiro isn't producing at the same pace as Malkin.

Neither are Staal or Stamkos.

Comparable is not a synonym for same.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Comparable is not a synonym for same.

Actually the way you are using it infers that Riberio and Malkin were similar.

But it's good to get that out of the way, as any 2 players are "comparable" but Riberio is nowhere near the scorer that Malkin is plain and simple.

Malkin and his elite play in the KHL in 12-13 are part of his resume.

Here are the actual points leaders since 08-09 to today (starting in the season after Jagr left for the KHL)

http://www.hockey-reference.com/pla...c4comp=gt&c4val=&threshhold=5&order_by=points

look at that, its' AO, Crosby Malkin with a clear tier above the rest of the players that you mentioned in your OP..

 

[Canadiens1958]

Accuracy

Actually the way you are using it infers that Riberio and Malkin were similar.

But it's good to get that out of the way, as any 2 players are "comparable" but Riberio is nowhere near the scorer that Malkin is plain and simple.

Malkin and his elite play in the KHL in 12-13 are part of his resume.

Here are the actual points leaders since 08-09 to today (starting in the season after Jagr left for the KHL)

http://www.hockey-reference.com/pla...c4comp=gt&c4val=&threshhold=5&order_by=points

look at that, its' AO, Crosby Malkin with a clear tier above the rest of the players that you mentioned in your OP..

A question of accuracy. Lately you have been posting how important it is to be accurate. The data you posted includes Jagr's last season. Very inaccurate;

Correct data linked below:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/pla...c4comp=gt&c4val=&threshhold=5&order_by=points

,,, and Malkin is 7th, not 3rd as you claim.

 

[edinson]

That's a little high (top 3 Damn) considering he has a 5-0-0-0 line with Frolunda HC in the SEL that same season.

Unless you mean top 3 Dman in Finland that year.

Hmm, what? He was killing it for Jokerit in the finnish league. Considering he won the Norris the season before and came back to the NHL even better before the achilles injury I think that is fair.

You do realize I'm talking about 2012-13, right? I can't find any record of him playing for Frölunda that season.

 

[Hardyvan123]

A question of accuracy. Lately you have been posting how important it is to be accurate. The data you posted includes Jagr's last season. Very inaccurate;

Correct data linked below:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/pla...c4comp=gt&c4val=&threshhold=5&order_by=points

,,, and Malkin is 7th, not 3rd as you claim.

my bad on the year so 7th

then Stamkos is 10th
Stall 19th
Ribeiro 23

as for pace it's in the PPG column

Crosby 1.30
Malkin 1.17
AO 1.12


4. Kane 1.03
11. Stamkos .99
26.Staal .84
34. Ribeiro .82

it was just a really bad comp to put out there.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Hmm, what? He was killing it for Jokerit in the finnish league. Considering he won the Norris the season before and came back to the NHL even better before the achilles injury I think that is fair.

You do realize I'm talking about 2012-13, right? I can't find any record of him playing for Frölunda that season.

Here

http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/k/karlser01.html

scroll down to other regular season.

 

[edinson]

Here

http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/k/karlser01.html

scroll down to other regular season.

OK. Well, they're wrong. That is another Erik Karlsson: http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=33395


On-topic: How would you treat Malkin's (or Karlsson's) lockout games?

 

[jigglysquishy]

OK. Well, they're wrong. That is another Erik Karlsson: http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=33395


On-topic: How would you treat Malkin's (or Karlsson's) lockout games?

It's hard to determine but I don't think you can discount it.

While the lockout was going on Malkin was far and away the best player in the best league in the world. I don't think we can discount that.

 

[Acallabeth]

What is this Mike Ribeiro comparison, I don't even

On topic, well, KHL was the best working league in the world when Malkin played there, he was the best player, and his PPG of 1.76 isn't likely to be touched soon. I'm sure it adds to his legacy. How much? It's another question, I think we can regard it as a continuation of his dominant 2012.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Malkin in 2012 was the best active player hands down

2012 art ross hart Lindsay
2012 IIHF mvp and leading scorer
led the khl in scoring until the nhl season started and still finished third while only playing 70% of the season.

However crosby still proved he was superior in 12/13

 

[edinson]

It's hard to determine but I don't think you can discount it.

While the lockout was going on Malkin was far and away the best player in the best league in the world. I don't think we can discount that.

Yeah, I agree. Problem is, it's just impossible to say exactly where he would rank against full competition during these games but he came off a season as the best player in the world, but as soon as the NHL started up again, Crosby took that title. That's why I, in my previous post, was saying top-5 forward, which I feel very confident that he would have been. That is probably a little too conservative, though, and top-3 forward during that half season may be more fair.

 

[Hardyvan123]

OK. Well, they're wrong. That is another Erik Karlsson: http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=33395


On-topic: How would you treat Malkin's (or Karlsson's) lockout games?

It's neither here or there really and another site also has the 5 games for Erik but elite prospects is the best site usually.

It's one thing for Malkin to dominate a league like the KHL and it's another for a Dman to score well in a lesser Finnish league with little or no defensive information for Erik.

Can't remember exactly for that lockout year but the KHL then Sweden then Finland is the order for those leagues.

Alot of players went to Switzerland that year as well so it really muddles everything.

here are the scoring leaders for Finland that year

http://www.eliteprospects.com/league.php?leagueid=Liiga&season=2012

KHL

http://www.eliteprospects.com/league.php?leagueid=KHL&season=2012

Victor Hedman is on page 2


Sweden

http://www.eliteprospects.com/league.php?leagueid=SHL&season=2012


Swiss league

http://www.eliteprospects.com/league.php?leagueid=NLA&season=2012

alot of elite NHLer's

and alot of NHLer's simply didn't play until the NHL resumed.

 

[edinson]

Well, I probably shouldn't have brought up Karlsson in the first place since there's a bit of a different context there.

The way I view games in lesser leagues during lockouts:

Did the player dominate the lesser league? This is a clear YES when it comes to Malkin.

To determine to what extent the player would have dominated against full competition I look at how good he was immediately before the lockout and immediately after the lockout. For Malkin that would be best player in the world immediately before the lockout and something like top-5 forward after the lockout. Then I pick the lesser of the two, which may or may not be fair, which lead me to consider Malkin a top-5 forward during the lockout.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Exactly

my bad on the year so 7th

then Stamkos is 10th
Stall 19th
Ribeiro 23

as for pace it's in the PPG column

Crosby 1.30
Malkin 1.17
AO 1.12


4. Kane 1.03
11. Stamkos .99
26.Staal .84
34. Ribeiro .82

it was just a really bad comp to put out there.

Now that the accuracy issue is settled and assuming the PPG numbers where transcribed correctly we see how top line centers/forwards perform in a 30 team league.

Staal and Ribeiro played on teams that rarely made the playoffs with little linemate support and weak puckmoving, first pass, transition d-men.

Stamkos, Kane(3 SCs) on better teams with better linemates and well above average puckmoving, first pass, transition d-men.

Malkin's numbers on an offensive oriented Pittsburgh team with the advantage of Crosby drawing the oppositions main defensive focus have to be viewed in a league context.

The comparables in question simply show that given ideal circumstances like Malkin had in the KHL - NA coach in Paul Maurice who knew how to tailor an offence around Malkin, support from other forwards and an ideal defenceman in Sergei Gonchar :

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/leagues/seasons/teams/0050272013.html

he will stretch his offensive numbers. Without such support there will be a contraction of numbers.

 

[tjcurrie]

Not at all.

 

[edinson]

Not at all.

Why not?

 

[Hardyvan123]

Now that the accuracy issue is settled and assuming the PPG numbers where transcribed correctly we see how top line centers/forwards perform in a 30 team league.

Staal and Ribeiro played on teams that rarely made the playoffs with little linemate support and weak puckmoving, first pass, transition d-men.

Stamkos, Kane(3 SCs) on better teams with better linemates and well above average puckmoving, first pass, transition d-men.

Malkin's numbers on an offensive oriented Pittsburgh team with the advantage of Crosby drawing the oppositions main defensive focus have to be viewed in a league context.

The comparables in question simply show that given ideal circumstances like Malkin had in the KHL - NA coach in Paul Maurice who knew how to tailor an offence around Malkin, support from other forwards and an ideal defenceman in Sergei Gonchar :

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/leagues/seasons/teams/0050272013.html

he will stretch his offensive numbers. Without such support there will be a contraction of numbers.

You are still grasping at straws here, Malkin wins the Art Ross handily in 11-12 with Crosby playing in only 22 games (a great 22 games but.....).

Letang also played in only 51 games that year.

This insistence on comparing Malkin on some level to Staal and Ribeiro is just plain embarrassing and not supported by the factual evidence plain and simple.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Exactly

You are still grasping at straws here, Malkin wins the Art Ross handily in 11-12 with Crosby playing in only 22 games (a great 22 games but.....).

Letang also played in only 51 games that year.

This insistence on comparing Malkin on some level to Staal and Ribeiro is just plain embarrassing and not supported by the factual evidence plain and simple.

Exactly, like in the KHL the Pittsburgh offensive game flowed thru Malkin once Crosby and Letang did not play.

Malkin after Crosby was hurt, became the top offensive center on the Pittsburgh team. Factual evidence is that each of the remaining 29 NHL teams have a top offensive center. Looking at such production compared to Malkin is revealing. That some do not like what is revealed is okay.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Exactly, like in the KHL the Pittsburgh offensive game flowed thru Malkin once Crosby and Letang did not play.

In Pittsburg it's often 1A and 1B offensively but Crosby is better IMO and Letang plays quite a bit with both I would think without looking at the numbers.

Malkin after Crosby was hurt, became the top offensive center on the Pittsburgh team. Factual evidence is that each of the remaining 29 NHL teams have a top offensive center. Looking at such production compared to Malkin is revealing.

How is it revealing we already know that Malkin is on a different tier than Staal and Ribeiro?

That some do not like what is revealed is okay.

It's the conclusions you are trying to draw here that's the problem.

Malkin is in the offensive tier that Crosby and AO are in.

Stall and Ribeiro simply aren't as shown by the factual evidence.

Malkin excelled in the KHL during the lockout because he is an elite offensive talent.

 

[K Fleur]

Exactly, like in the KHL the Pittsburgh offensive game flowed thru Malkin once Crosby and Letang did not play.

Malkin after Crosby was hurt, became the top offensive center on the Pittsburgh team. Factual evidence is that each of the remaining 29 NHL teams have a top offensive center. Looking at such production compared to Malkin is revealing. That some do not like what is revealed is okay.

No, Malkin in 11-12 became the top offensive center(and player) in the NHL. Something that can, and has never been said about Mike Ribeiro. Or Eric Staal for that matter.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Fifteen Minutes of Fame

No, Malkin in 11-12 became the top offensive center(and player) in the NHL. Something that can, and has never been said about Mike Ribeiro. Or Eric Staal for that matter.

Malkin 2011-12 had his fifteen minutes of fame. But what happened in the shortened 2012-13 NHL season, you may want to ask?

Well:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/pla...c4comp=gt&c4val=&threshhold=5&order_by=points

as you can see, the facts are, contrary to the protestations of others, Stamkos, Staal and Ribeireo all matched or outperformed Malkin be it using raw or PPG scoring data.

So if Malkin's short season KHL season is revealing then his equally shorth NHL season during the same hockey year is equally revealing.

 

[GJB]

Let's keep this reality based. A point or goal generated by Malkin or Mike Ribeiro has the same value. Ribeiro with documented issues produces at a comparable pace as Malkin with documented injuries.

A comparable pace?

Lets look at that for a minute:

Mike Ribeiro
Games Played: 1012
Points: 763
Points Per Game: 0.7539

Evgeni Malkin
Games Played: 640
Points: 756
Points Per Game: 1.1812

I mean it's not even close and this is just analyzing stats. Not looking at hardware, not looking at who's the more complete player, size, compete level and everything else that Malkin would come out the winner in hands down.

 

[McGuillicuddy]

Does Gretzky's year in the WHA contribute to his legacy?

The answer is technically not zero, but also not significant.

 

[GJB]

Malkin 2011-12 had his fifteen minutes of fame. But what happened in the shortened 2012-13 NHL season, you may want to ask?

Well:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/pla...c4comp=gt&c4val=&threshhold=5&order_by=points

as you can see, the facts are, contrary to the protestations of others, Stamkos, Staal and Ribeireo all matched or outperformed Malkin be it using raw or PPG scoring data.

So if Malkin's short season KHL season is revealing then his equally shorth NHL season during the same hockey year is equally revealing.

So you are going to use 1 single season to argue Ribeiro and E.Staal over Malkin then?

Where is the logic there?

 

[GJB]

as you can see, the facts are, contrary to the protestations of others, Stamkos, Staal and Ribeireo all matched or outperformed Malkin be it using raw or PPG scoring data.

The facts are Malkin is better than Ribeiro and Eric Staal sixteen different ways from Sunday.