Does Malkin's 2012-13 KHL season add to his legacy?

[jigglysquishy]

He was far and away the best player in the KHL that year. He was far and away the best player in 2011-12 in the NHL. While his 2012-13 NHL season was just okay does his KHL success matter?

Malkin is the clear third between Ovi and Crosby and probably the third best forward post Jagr. Determining the value of that season is tricky with the lockout screwing everything up. But he was the best player in the world while the lockout was on.

Click to read more...

 

[Voight]

Not really. It wasn't even a full season.

 

[Hardyvan123]

It's part of his resume as his NHL regular line and the playoff line that year so yes.

Sadly it won't gain much traction here as it would say in 1974 though.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Others

He was far and away the best player in the KHL that year. He was far and away the best player in 2011-12 in the NHL. While his 2012-13 NHL season was just okay does his KHL success matter?

Malkin is the clear third between Ovi and Crosby and probably the third best forward post Jagr. Determining the value of that season is tricky with the lockout screwing everything up. But he was the best player in the world while the lockout was on.

Patrick Kane, Steve Stamkos and others deserve consideration in the debate.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Patrick Kane, Steve Stamkos and others deserve consideration in the debate.

Kane I can see as he is likely to add a Hart and Art Ross to his resume to go along with a vry good playoff one but Stamkos?

Malkin has a very good playoff resume to go along with his regular season resume so far which includes 2 Art Ross trophies a Hart and a Conn Smythe.

I like Stamkos but Malkin is clearly ahead of him at this point and probably Kane as well.

 

[billybudd]

Patrick Kane, Steve Stamkos and others deserve consideration in the debate.

Maybe if Kane has another season like this one next year, but as of right this second, he still has yet to win a Ross, Lindsay or Hart. Haven't looked up points or goal finishes, but considering Malkin has 110 more points in less games played, I can't imagine Kane matches up well at all. Kane has more cups, but his individual playoff production is actually worse. Nor can there be any sort of "two way" argument as neither guy is anything to write home about in terms of defense. Finally, Kane has one first team all-star finish against the weakest competition that exists at any position in his era (right wing). Malkin has 3 at center.

Far as Stamkos, he has limited individual playoff success, no cups, has 2 rockets (one shared) and...that's it. His best season came head to head against Malkin's best season and there was about as close to universal agreement on Malkin as the better player that year as it gets.


Edit: actually, if anyone has an argument for being #3 who isn't Malkin, it's either Keith or a goaltender.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Patrick Kane, Steve Stamkos and others deserve consideration in the debate.

Maybe if Kane keeps dominating like that, but both have been in the league for a long time and Malkin was pretty much always better.

Stamkos not a chance.

Who are the others you're thinking of?

 

[Batis]

12/13 Season (KHL/NHL combined)

1. Evgeni Malkin 68 gp, 32 g, 66 a, 98 pts
65 pts in 37 gp KHL, 33 pts in 31 gp NHL
2. Alexander Ovechkin 79 gp, 51 g, 45 a, 96 pts
40 pts in 31 gp KHL, 56 pts in 48 gp NHL
3. Pavel Datsyuk 78 gp, 26 g, 59 a, 85 pts
36 pts in 31 gp KHL, 49 pts in 47 gp NHL
4. Ilya Kovalchuck 73 gp, 29 g, 44 a, 73 pts
42 pts in 36 gp KHL, 31 pts in 37 gp NHL

If we look at the entire season Malkin was perhaps the most dominant Russian player. At worst he was second only to Ovechkin. Which of course should add something to your legacy.

 

[Czech Your Math]

It definitely should add to his legacy, it's just a question of how much? On a per-game basis (considering that he played ~70% of the season, then returned to NHL once lockout was resolved), it might be the best season by a forward in the KHL/REL since the '80s.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Others

Maybe if Kane keeps dominating like that, but both have been in the league for a long time and Malkin was pretty much always better.

Stamkos not a chance.

Who are the others you're thinking of?

Erik Karlsson to Joe Thornton.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/pla...c4comp=gt&c4val=&threshhold=5&order_by=points

Stamkos has outscored(goals) Malkin while playing fewer games and without the benefit of playing with another elite player like Crosby.

This is without considering players with five seasons or less of experience.

In terms of scoring once you get past the glitter of honours in terms of actual production(points) Malkin is closer to the likes of Eric Staal, Mike Ribeiro, Anze Kopitar than he is to Ovechkin and Crosby. Plenty of room for others to fit in between Malkin and Ovechkin/Crosby going forward.

 

[Czech Your Math]

Erik Karlsson to Joe Thornton.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/pla...c4comp=gt&c4val=&threshhold=5&order_by=points

Stamkos has outscored(goals) Malkin while playing fewer games and without the benefit of playing with another elite player like Crosby.

This is without considering players with five seasons or less of experience.

In terms of scoring once you get past the glitter of honours in terms of actual production(points) Malkin is closer to the likes of Eric Staal, Mike Ribeiro, Anze Kopitar than he is to Ovechkin and Crosby. Plenty of room for others to fit in between Malkin and Ovechkin/Crosby going forward.

In terms of best 2-3 seasons, the only post-lockout forwards in Malkin's class are Ovechkin, Crosby, and Thornton. Those are also the only three players to have more total points than Malkin since he entered the NHL in '07. No one ever seriously thought Mike Ribeiro was in any way comparable to Evgeni Malkin, even during the worst of hallucinations. Malkin just cannot stay healthy, that is the main reason he is behind Ovechkin & Crosby.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Erik Karlsson to Joe Thornton.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/pla...c4comp=gt&c4val=&threshhold=5&order_by=points

Stamkos has outscored(goals) Malkin while playing fewer games and without the benefit of playing with another elite player like Crosby.

This is without considering players with five seasons or less of experience.

In terms of scoring once you get past the glitter of honours in terms of actual production(points) Malkin is closer to the likes of Eric Staal, Mike Ribeiro, Anze Kopitar than he is to Ovechkin and Crosby. Plenty of room for others to fit in between Malkin and Ovechkin/Crosby going forward.

In terms of best 2-3 seasons, the only post-lockout forwards in Malkin's class are Ovechkin, Crosby, and Thornton. Those are also the only three players to have more total points than Malkin since he entered the NHL in '07. No one ever seriously thought Mike Ribeiro was in any way comparable to Evgeni Malkin, even during the worst of hallucinations. Malkin just cannot stay healthy, that is the main reason he is behind Ovechkin & Crosby.

I have to agree here and sure Kopitar has great 2 way value but Eric Stall and Mike Ribeiro?

That's just a lazy analysis looking at raw stats not accounting for peak, impact per game, playoffs and a whole host of other metrics.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Conversely

In terms of best 2-3 seasons, the only post-lockout forwards in Malkin's class are Ovechkin, Crosby, and Thornton. Those are also the only three players to have more total points than Malkin since he entered the NHL in '07. No one ever seriously thought Mike Ribeiro was in any way comparable to Evgeni Malkin, even during the worst of hallucinations. Malkin just cannot stay healthy, that is the main reason he is behind Ovechkin & Crosby.

Number of players cannot stay healthy so Malkin is far from unique in this regard. Crosby and others if healthy? Best 2-3 season metric. Might as well look at the best 2-3 games for all the difference it makes.

So where would Malkin rank if in the remaing 7-8 seasons we look at his performance? Exactly, far from the top three.

Let's keep this reality based. A point or goal generated by Malkin or Mike Ribeiro has the same value. Ribeiro with documented issues produces at a comparable pace as Malkin with documented injuries.

 

[Czech Your Math]

So where would Malkin rank if in the remaing 7-8 seasons we look at his performance? Exactly, far from the top three.

He'd still be ranked way higher than Mike Ribeiro.

Let's keep this reality based. A point or goal generated by Malkin or Mike Ribeiro has the same value. Ribeiro with documented issues produces at a comparable pace as Malkin with documented injuries.

Yes, let us. The only possible way Ribeiro outperforms (or comes anywhere close to) Malkin is that he has 8 more career points. Of course, that neglects the fact that he's 6.5 years older. I'll go out on a limb and predict that, despite being quite injury-prone, Malkin can make up that difference over time.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Number of players cannot stay healthy so Malkin is far from unique in this regard. Crosby and others if healthy? Best 2-3 season metric. Might as well look at the best 2-3 games for all the difference it makes.

So where would Malkin rank if in the remaing 7-8 seasons we look at his performance? Exactly, far from the top three.

Let's keep this reality based. A point or goal generated by Malkin or Mike Ribeiro has the same value. Ribeiro with documented issues produces at a comparable pace as Malkin with documented injuries.

Comparing Malkin to Mike Ribeiro is something I thought I would never see and is simply amazing.

I agree with CYM and would think that also most everyone else would as well.

Mlakin is an elite player who has had injuries.

Looking at career stats is like looking at Mario and Ronnie Francis and somehow equating that both are on the same level offensively with Francis having 75 more points.

(Mod)

 

[solidmotion]

it shouldn't be controversial to say that malkin is the 3rd best player since the lockout as of this moment.

he does have blemishes though. i've never understood the inconsistency, particularly in goal scoring. he was amazing, elite in his 50 goal season, but has never approached that pace in any other season —*.67 gpg where his next best is .57 in his 2nd season, and he's never hit .5 otherwise.

if this year is the "real kane" then he'll have an argument for #3 (or higher) after a couple dominant seasons. but it's still malkin for now.

and i don't know how to factor khl dominance into contemporary nhl resumes. there doesn't seem to be any logic to the variance in production as far as i can tell.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Control

He'd still be ranked way higher than Mike Ribeiro.



Yes, let us. The only possible way Ribeiro outperforms (or comes anywhere close to) Malkin is that he has 8 more career points. Of course, that neglects the fact that he's 6.5 years older. I'll go out on a limb and predict that, despite being quite injury-prone, Malkin can make up that difference over time.

Control the narrative and the sample size as illustrated and any desired outcome may be presented. 1959-60 NHL scoring saw Bronco Horvath and Bobby Hull as near equals. 2014-15 saw Jamie Benn win the Art Ross yet neither Horvath nor Benn are top 3 candidates amongst their contemporaries.

 

[K Fleur]

Erik Karlsson to Joe Thornton.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/pla...c4comp=gt&c4val=&threshhold=5&order_by=points

Stamkos has outscored(goals) Malkin while playing fewer games and without the benefit of playing with another elite player like Crosby.

This is without considering players with five seasons or less of experience.

In terms of scoring once you get past the glitter of honours in terms of actual production(points) Malkin is closer to the likes of Eric Staal, Mike Ribeiro, Anze Kopitar than he is to Ovechkin and Crosby. Plenty of room for others to fit in between Malkin and Ovechkin/Crosby going forward.

Except for the 2 time art Ross winner he had on his wing during his first 6 seasons.

Not even going to to touch on the Malkin is in the same tier as Eric Staal, Mike Ribeiro comments...

 

[MXD]

The most puzzling question here is probably the meaning of "Post-Jagr"

Of course, it has to be considered. Malkin was indeed better that season than his NHL statline would led you to believe.

But it has to be put on "equal footing" with other...humm.. realities. As an example, I have a hard time considering his season was better than Martin St.Louis, because there's a difference between a 37 or 38 years old Canadian (North american) player and a Russian player in his twenties when it comes to whether there's a point for the former to expatriate, not to mention roster requirements in the KHL for foreign players. Of course, my conclusion wouldn't be the same if St-Louis didn't have a Art Ross (or Art Ross worthy season). I mean, you can be sure that, if I had enough money to not bother about it and could spend extra time with my kids for a few months, I'd certainly stay home and train like a madman instead.

And while they're definitely not competing against each other or anything, I can't really use that if I was to compare Evegeni Malkin to PK Subban, as the latter was out of contract at the time (playing in Russian could've meant an injury, no contract, bla bla bla). Subban is the first example that came to mind, but there might have been other players in that situation.

 

[GJB]

Erik Karlsson to Joe Thornton.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/pla...c4comp=gt&c4val=&threshhold=5&order_by=points

Stamkos has outscored(goals) Malkin while playing fewer games and without the benefit of playing with another elite player like Crosby.

This is without considering players with five seasons or less of experience.

In terms of scoring once you get past the glitter of honours in terms of actual production(points) Malkin is closer to the likes of Eric Staal, Mike Ribeiro, Anze Kopitar than he is to Ovechkin and Crosby. Plenty of room for others to fit in between Malkin and Ovechkin/Crosby going forward.

Stamkos has more goals than Malkin. This should surprise no one, Stamkos is much more of a pure goal scorer than Malkin, Crosby, Thornton and others.

Why are you not looking at points-per-game totals? If you factor in PPG, Malkin is second in the same list you linked, only Crosby is ahead of him. But you want to put him in a category with Eric Staal or Ribeiro? Why? How does that make sense at all?

For PPG Eric Staal is 23rd and Ribeiro is all the way down at 39th....

 

[billybudd]

Stamkos has more goals than Malkin. This should surprise no one, Stamkos is much more of a pure goal scorer than Malkin, Crosby, Thornton and others.

Why are you not looking at points-per-game totals? If you factor in PPG, Malkin is second in the same list you linked, only Crosby is ahead of him. But you want to put him in a category with Eric Staal or Ribeiro? Why? How does that make sense at all?

For PPG Eric Staal is 23rd and Ribeiro is all the way down at 39th....

Drawing a conclusion just on goals when comparing a shooter with a passer/shooter is a really strange approach.

Using work stoppages as endpoints, the same reasoning being used to put Stamkos on equal footing with Malkin would lead inexorably to the conclusion that Petr Bondra was an equal or superior player between 92 and 04 vs Modano, Fedorov, Lindros, (etc). Anyone really want to go out on that limb?

 

[edinson]

I view it as another 37 games as a top-5 (probably top-3) forward in the game. He already has around 300 of those in the NHL so it does not add a whole lot but still should be considered, imo.

Similarly, I view Erik Karlsson's games in SM-liiga during the same period as 30 games at the level of a top-3 Dman. If players choose to play during lockouts, they should get credit for that.

 

[Hardyvan123]

I view it as another 37 games as a top-5 (probably top-3) forward in the game. He already has around 300 of those in the NHL so it does not add a whole lot but still should be considered, imo.

Similarly, I view Erik Karlsson's games in SM-liiga during the same period as 30 games at the level of a top-3 Dman. If players choose to play during lockouts, they should get credit for that.

That's a little high (top 3 Damn) considering he has a 5-0-0-0 line with Frolunda HC in the SEL that same season.

Unless you mean top 3 Dman in Finland that year.

 

[Sensinitis]

In terms of best 2-3 seasons, the only post-lockout forwards in Malkin's class are Ovechkin, Crosby, and Thornton. Those are also the only three players to have more total points than Malkin since he entered the NHL in '07. No one ever seriously thought Mike Ribeiro was in any way comparable to Evgeni Malkin, even during the worst of hallucinations. Malkin just cannot stay healthy, that is the main reason he is behind Ovechkin & Crosby.

I have to agree here and sure Kopitar has great 2 way value but Eric Stall and Mike Ribeiro?

That's just a lazy analysis looking at raw stats not accounting for peak, impact per game, playoffs and a whole host of other metrics.

He'd still be ranked way higher than Mike Ribeiro.



Yes, let us. The only possible way Ribeiro outperforms (or comes anywhere close to) Malkin is that he has 8 more career points. Of course, that neglects the fact that he's 6.5 years older. I'll go out on a limb and predict that, despite being quite injury-prone, Malkin can make up that difference over time.

Comparing Malkin to Mike Ribeiro is something I thought I would never see and is simply amazing.

I agree with CYM and would think that also most everyone else would as well.

Mlakin is an elite player who has had injuries.

Looking at career stats is like looking at Mario and Ronnie Francis and somehow equating that both are on the same level offensively with Francis having 75 more points.

(Mod)

Except for the 2 time art Ross winner he had on his wing during his first 6 seasons.

Not even going to to touch on the Malkin is in the same tier as Eric Staal, Mike Ribeiro comments...

You guys are completely missing his point.

 

[Hardyvan123]

You guys are completely missing his point.

Number of players cannot stay healthy so Malkin is far from unique in this regard. Crosby and others if healthy? Best 2-3 season metric. Might as well look at the best 2-3 games for all the difference it makes.

So where would Malkin rank if in the remaing 7-8 seasons we look at his performance? Exactly, far from the top three.

Let's keep this reality based. A point or goal generated by Malkin or Mike Ribeiro has the same value. Ribeiro with documented issues produces at a comparable pace as Malkin with documented injuries.

No actually we aren't when you look at the claim in bold.

Ribeiro isn't producing at the same pace as Malkin.

Neither are Staal or Stamkos.