Dodged a bullet (Staal contract)

[billybudd]

It might not normally be a big deal but when you have Crosby and Malkin making basically 9 mill a year each and a super expensive long term deal to Letang you cannot really afford to overpay in other roles. It's a primary source of my criticism for Shero and his tendancy to ship picks and prospects for rentals. You need players playing above their cap hits to offset the the big contracts the team already has. Trading Staal was absolutely the right move the only problem is how it was handled since then. Over paying older veterans who's production has been inflated by playing with the greatest playmaker in the world is not exactly smart. Going all in and trading off good picks and prospects for a bottom 6'er and a guy your coach apparently didnt want anyways is not a smart move. So in a bubble this dodging of the Staal contract is very good for the team but in the reality of merely transfering what Staal wouldve gotten to Dupuis and guys like Tanner Glass... I am not so sure we're totally better off.

I agree with the point about rentals and cap savings on entry level contracts. Unless you think you're X acquisitions that can be made at the deadline away, it should almost never be done.

Where I disagree is that Staal is a) an older veteran, b) numerically inflated by playing with Crosby and c) overpriced for what he does. If you have Staal, for 20 minutes a night, the puck doesn't get to your side of the ice. Breaking out when he's on the ice is laboriously difficult and getting the puck away from him on the wall is damn near impossible, as we saw when he was winning one on threes against us the last time we played Carolina. And he dominated us with Gerbe and Dwyer riding shotgun. Alone, the guy constitutes a successful line.

That's easily worth $6 million to me.

 

[Captain Hook]

His contract's fine if you need him. I didn't think our team needed him at that salary. He's better than Sutter but Sutter is a good depth center. To me the deal has always hinged on Pouliot. If he lives up to being the 8th overall pick then we'll win this deal.

 

[wgknestrick]

Sutter is 90% as good as Staal, but (will probably) cost half as much. It was a GREAT trade considering DP is a very good defenseman.

I'm happy with Sutter (and his current, skilled wings).

 

[wej20]

In the playoff loss to TB, Staal proved he was not a #1 center and with the Canes he proved he isn't even a # 2 center.

For Staal to reach his true potential he has to be put on LW with a good center and I don't think brother Eric is that center.

He can be a #2 centre with some solid wingers, 50-60 points normally lands you in the 20-40 range for centre scoring.

 

[Coach Travis]

Sutter is 90% as good as Staal, but (will probably) cost half as much. It was a GREAT trade considering DP is a very good defenseman.

I'm happy with Sutter (and his current, skilled wings).

That's pretty accurate I'd say.

 

[Penguinzilla*]

Staal is good I would love to still have him

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

Sutter is 90% as good as Staal, but (will probably) cost half as much. It was a GREAT trade considering DP is a very good defenseman.

I'm happy with Sutter (and his current, skilled wings).

Disagree on both claims.

Sutter has been mediocre to borderline awful till the last 8 games and he'll be getting more than 3M this summer.

 

[wej20]

Sutter has been great in the playoffs, very average in the regular season. I'd like a full season of him with proper wingers to judge him. He's definitely not 90% good as Staal but given comparative price he's a better fit.

 

[wgknestrick]

Disagree on both claims.

Sutter has been mediocre to borderline awful till the last 8 games and he'll be getting more than 3M this summer.

.......And so was Staal in CAR. Sutter's wings were god awful this year, and we are seeing what he can do with talent now.

I am sure we can get Sutter for <= 4mil

 

[Hottubber]

Disagree on both claims.

Sutter has been mediocre to borderline awful till the last 8 games and he'll be getting more than 3M this summer.

Sutter was just garbage for most of the year, but so were his linemates. Since the playoffs have started and he has been playing with a combo of Vitale, Bennet, Stempniak, and on occasion Neal & JJ, his play has also gotten much better.

It would have been nice for him to have decent linemates for the whole year to judge his play. Especially with his contract coming up.

 

[wgknestrick]

Last 2 years

5v5 pts/60min

Staal 1.35
Sutter 1.05

GF%

Staal 47%
Sutter 45%


He is pretty darn close to being 90% of Staal

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

.......And so was Staal in CAR. Sutter's wings were god awful this year, and we are seeing what he can do with talent now.

I am sure we can get Sutter for <= 4mil

I don't care what Staal's done in the dumpsterfire that is Carolina. He was great when he was here and took a lot of pressure off Sid and Geno.

Sutter was just garbage for most of the year, but so were his linemates. Since the playoffs have started and he has been playing with a combo of Vitale, Bennet, Stempniak, and on occasion Neal & JJ, his play has also gotten much better.

It would have been nice for him to have decent linemates for the whole year to judge his play. Especially with his contract coming up.

He's had about 8 great games. Staal was better for much longer than Sutter.

 

[Hottubber]

I don't care what Staal's done in the dumpsterfire that is Carolina. He was great when he was here and took a lot of pressure off Sid and Geno.



He's had about 8 great games. Staal was better for much longer than Sutter.

I completely agree. But as I said, his linemates have only really improved since the start of the playoffs. I think Sutter is worth somewhere between 3.25-3.5 on a 2-3 year deal. If he wants 4, look to trade him.

 

[bathroomSTAAL]

I'll never change my username. Staal fer lyfe.

 

[Human]

I suppose if Shero had signed Staal to that deal Pascal Dupuis would have been gone last summer... so those money plus Sutter's money make up for Staal's caphit.

of course, then you'd have the Sid's RW issue, which you have anyway though...

but I really don't believe re-signing Staal would have been that big of a problem because of his caphit...

 

[66-30-33]

Be prepared. Salaries have gone up, up, up.

Then he can go, go, go.

 

[Pancakes]

Jordan Staal might not put up gaudy offensive numbers but he's a beast at puck possession and our third line has not been the same since he left the team up until Sutter's recent strong play.

But if Sutter can keep up his recent play and DP pans out, it was still a good trade.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

Dodged a bullet with the Staal contract and fell on a grenade with the Letang one.

 

[BrOrpik 44]

Dodged a bullet with the Staal contract and fell on a grenade with the Letang one.

Shero would catch a grenade for us, yeah yeah

 

[billybudd]

Sutter is 90% as good as Staal, but (will probably) cost half as much. It was a GREAT trade considering DP is a very good defenseman.

I'm happy with Sutter (and his current, skilled wings).

From someone who leans on advanced stats so heavily in all of his arguments, this statement is extremely surprising.

Last 2 years

5v5 pts/60min

Staal 1.35
Sutter 1.05

GF%

Staal 47%
Sutter 45%


He is pretty darn close to being 90% of Staal

I see you've omitted all possession-related metrics in favor of using gf %, which, like plus minus, has a high degree of error due to the relative scarcity of goal events.

Staal spends 20% more time out of his zone. That's not a slight difference, it's the Grand ****ing Canyon. It's the difference in zone time between Pyatt and Malkin. Over a 2 year span.

Furthermore, Sutter was such a failure in the tough minutes Staal is used to that the Penguins had to stop using him as a shutdown player this season. All of Staal's former difficult minutes went to 87.

Sutter's worse numbers came in easy minutes. Not easier minutes. Easy minutes. Of centers that have played for this team this season, the only one given a softer landing than Sutter was Vitale.

He had to be given easy minutes because he failed miserably at playing the role Staal played here and in Carolina. Linemate argument doesn't cut it either. Cooke saw a 20% negative swing in his own possession numbers going from Staal to Sutter. Kennedy fell off a cliff as well.

It's nice that Sutter's had 8 good games in a row and another 10 decent ones before that (not sure why it took 2 years for this to happen, but whatever), but let's stop pretending that a guy who flunked out of his job as a shutdown center, during said flunking, was 90% as effective as the second or third best defensive forward in the conference--who also happens to have been twice as productive offensively in the same period of time.

 

[Pens1566]

I'm shocked this thread was created.

 

[lastcupever75]

i fear the letang contract is just as bad, except the bullet wasnt dodged.

how so? before the recent injury, anyone in the league wpould have paid him close to that contract.

he's 10 x's the player jordo is

 

[lastcupever75]

the staal situation established that shero is willing to overpay to keep the family together. staal, letang, scuderi, adams, dupuis, etc.

would anyone be suprised if he resigned orpik or fleury to absurd deals after this season?

do you think its shero who is the the #1 force in keeping "the family" together


the country club atmosphere has existed a long time before shero got here

 

[eXile59]

So we are talking about a 3rd line center that hasn't played for us in two years now while in the midst of the playoffs?

I feel like making a "Stall" for Kaberle thread for old times sake.

 

[Corvidae]

i fear the letang contract is just as bad, except the bullet wasnt dodged.

Yep. It seems they doged that bullet but took some #58 buckshot to the face.