Dodged a bullet (Staal contract)

[Le Magnifique 66]

before we start breaking arms patting ourselves on the back, we still have Letang's contract to contend with....

If he plays the way he has been playing since the Rangers series, I don't even care that much. I'd rather keep him and try to dump Scuds

 

[AjaxTelamon]

The sad part of the whole Staal saga was that at some point when he was here, he decided he didn't want to be that shutdown center whose offense came from dominant defense. He scored 7 SHG his rookie year. That was his game. He should have been our generation's Joel Otto.

But instead, he wanted to be Geno or Sid, or his big brother. And his offensive skills just aren't there.

I would have loved to sign the guy even for a premium at the time, maybe 5 mil a year long term as a perennial Selke guy who chipped in 20 goals a year. But the current iteration of Jordan Staal is a player with no role on a contender, and is a shell of his former potential.

 

[JQR]

The sad part of the whole Staal saga was that at some point when he was here, he decided he didn't want to be that shutdown center whose offense came from dominant defense. He scored 7 SHG his rookie year. That was his game. He should have been our generation's Joel Otto.

But instead, he wanted to be Geno or Sid, or his big brother. And his offensive skills just aren't there.

I would have loved to sign the guy even for a premium at the time, maybe 5 mil a year long term as a perennial Selke guy who chipped in 20 goals a year. But the current iteration of Jordan Staal is a player with no role on a contender, and is a shell of his former potential.

Pretty sure he didn't have much say in that.

 

[Shady Machine]

Pretty sure he didn't have much say in that.

Say in what?

 

[JQR]

Say in what?

Is the quote not showing up (maybe you have that guy on ignore)? The guy I quoted said,

"The sad part of the whole Staal saga was that at some point when he was here, he decided he didn't want to be that shutdown center whose offense came from dominant defense."

If I recall correctly, Staal was more or less forced into the role of a scoring center as a result of season-ending injuries on Crosby / Malkin.

 

[DegenX]

Is the quote not showing up (maybe you have that guy on ignore)? The guy I quoted said,

"The sad part of the whole Staal saga was that at some point when he was here, he decided he didn't want to be that shutdown center whose offense came from dominant defense."

If I recall correctly, Staal was more or less forced into the role of a scoring center as a result of season-ending injuries on Crosby / Malkin.

Ya, no ... he pretty much said he didn't want to do that any more, that he wanted a more offensive role. And even if he hadn't, it was pretty obvious from his play at the end of his time here. Especially in the Philly series. There was also the Staalkin experiment that points to Jordan wanting a more prominent role even before the injuries 'forced' him to step up to the plate.

 

[JQR]

Ya, no ... he pretty much said he didn't want to do that any more, that he wanted a more offensive role. And even if he hadn't, it was pretty obvious from his play at the end of his time here. Especially in the Philly series.

Ya know, now that you mention it I do recall him saying something to that effect after accepting the Carolina offer.

 

[billybudd]

Billy, you clearly didn't watch much Canes hockey this year. Jordan started out the year as the defensive specialist, taking a majority of his draws in the Dzone, but his scoring was so awful during that stretch (.25 pts per game through 12 to start the year, 1 goal) that they had to sign Manny freaking Malhotra from the Charlotte Checkers to come in and wipe Jordan's nose and get him some easier zone starts.

Here's a chart of Carolina's centers zone starts this past year. By the end of the year they had Jordan up to about 50% O zone starts, and he STILL couldn't produce more than about .5 pts per game, even getting lots of PP time (180 min for the year).

Staal is a 3rd line center who can't score, can't pass, and refuses to play the shut down game he used to. All he can do is dump the puck and cycle it along the boards. In other words, be a good 4th line center. Oh, and his penalty killing stats were abysmal this year. Opp SH% was over 21%(!) over 170 minutes. And it wasn't just the goaltending. Malhotra came in and put in 107 mins of SH TOI and his Opp SH% was 10%.

Staal plain sucks these days. I'd rather have Sutter, especially considering the difference in cap hit.

You're free to try that analysis on the Hurricanes board, but I don't think it's going to be particularly well-received.

 

[AjaxTelamon]

You're free to try that analysis on the Hurricanes board, but I don't think it's going to be particularly well-received.

Bottom line, this team is judged by its performance in the playoffs. Sutter has been amazing in the playoffs this year. Carolina's GM has been fired, their coach is gone and the team is playing golf for the second straight year. Jordan played a big role in all of that.

 

[billybudd]

Can't really tell me I don't know anything about the Canes's situation then drop a line like "Carolina's GM was fired." Jim Rutherford was "fired" only in the sense that he scaled back his hours (but probably not his pay).

Rutherford's the Hurricanes President and minority owner, in case you were wondering.

 

[Big McLargehuge]

Carolina hasn't made the playoffs since '09 (which is their only visit since their Cup year in 2006) and has a goalie making $6.25 million who's a back-up at best at this point...pinning Rutherford's exodus on Jordan Staal is laughable.

It certainly played a role in it, but that's about 7th or 8th down the list of reasons.

 

[Shady Machine]

Is the quote not showing up (maybe you have that guy on ignore)? The guy I quoted said,

"The sad part of the whole Staal saga was that at some point when he was here, he decided he didn't want to be that shutdown center whose offense came from dominant defense."

If I recall correctly, Staal was more or less forced into the role of a scoring center as a result of season-ending injuries on Crosby / Malkin.

No I could see the quote, I just didn't understand which part Staal was forced into: being a shutdown center early in his career or a scoring center later on.

Now that you have clarified, you're wrong. Staal wanted to be a top 6 scoring center. He made that clear in his later stages as a Pen and in his decision to go to Carolina. That doesn't mean that he couldn't have stayed and been very successful as a shutdown guy. Just that he wanted more. So far it hasn't worked out for him. Can't say it's worked out for us either.

 

[Shady Machine]

Bottom line, this team is judged by its performance in the playoffs. Sutter has been amazing in the playoffs this year. Carolina's GM has been fired, their coach is gone and the team is playing golf for the second straight year. Jordan played a big role in all of that.

Um okay. It's clear that you just don't like Staal.

 

[JQR]

No I could see the quote, I just didn't understand which part Staal was forced into: being a shutdown center early in his career or a scoring center later on.

Now that you have clarified, you're wrong. Staal wanted to be a top 6 scoring center. He made that clear in his later stages as a Pen and in his decision to go to Carolina.

Right, but wasn't that sparked by him being forced to play that role to begin with? It's not like he was this amazing goal scorer when he had to pick up the slack. Seemed more to me like he needed to fill that role [as a goal scorer] then decided he enjoyed it, but I never thought he was particularly good at it.

 

[Shady Machine]

Right, but wasn't that sparked by him being forced to play that role to begin with? It's not like he was this amazing goal scorer when he had to pick up the slack. Seemed more to me like he needed to fill that role [as a goal scorer] then decided he enjoyed it, but I never thought he was particularly good at it.

You're going all over the place here. Are you suggesting that Staal wanted to leave Pittsburgh for a bigger role because we forced him into a bigger role and he ended up liking it?

If so, who knows but I doubt it. It seems reasonable to me that he knew he would always been in Sid and Geno's shadow and saw this as an opportunity to be THE guy or one of the guys with his brother.

 

[JQR]

You're going all over the place here. Are you suggesting that Staal wanted to leave Pittsburgh for a bigger role because we forced him into a bigger role and he ended up liking it?

If so, who knows but I doubt it. It seems reasonable to me that he knew he would always been in Sid and Geno's shadow and saw this as an opportunity to be THE guy or one of the guys with his brother.

Somewhat. I'm saying he was a fantastic shutdown center, then had to fill the role of a goal scorer while still maintaining his defensive play. He scored a few more goals in the process, but nothing I would consider to be fantastic, not until the 11-12 season when he had a great season. I think he got extremely lucky in that it was also the year his contract was up, because I don't think he is nearly as good at scoring as that season might suggest. I still think his strength lies in his defensive play.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

If he plays the way he has been playing since the Rangers series, I don't even care that much. I'd rather keep him and try to dump Scuds

Imagine that, the guy everyone was up in arms about Letang not getting enough time with, Scuderi, is the guy that most deem the one unnecessary to the Pens future. Could NOT agree more.

Letang & Martin are awesome together, that's a pairing that will get Letang the confidence and have him play the way he's fully capable of.

Scuderi is definitely not needed for the blueline's future, I don't know how people can justify it.


Martin, Letang
Maatta, Niskanen
Despres, Bortuzzo

People can stuff it with the inexperience bit, because what's inexperienced about that?

Bortuzzo - 80+ games (including playoffs) - 25yrs old
Despres - 90+ games (including playoffs) - 22yrs old
Maatta - 85+ games (including playoffs) - 19yrs old

Then 3 veterans, Niskanen, Martin, and Letang that make up the inexperience. Oh, but it won't work you say?

Take a walk with me over to the Bruins blueline.

Not only will the cap saved from Scuderi being traded and Orpik not coming back help the team retain Niskanen (at this point, that's a need if you ask me, the defense is weaker without him, he provides the depth needed for injuries we seem to see on the Pens blueline).

Scuderi + Orpik off the books is 8m. I would use 5 of that on Niskanen for a 5yr contract, which hopefully does the trick, the other 3m in cap space is eaten up by Letang's new contract, Sutter shouldn't be hard to retain, off the books are guys liek Vokoun, Stempniak, etc.

I would hate to see Niskanen lost and Scuderi kept. Also, the potential of a twin tower duo of Despres/Bortuzzo would be an amazing thing for the 3rd pairing, it gives the Pens a bit of everything on every pairing, also...size that can skate, for once.

 

[Fire Shero*]

I'm glad Shero didn't screw the pooch twice with Staal. He drafted him ahead of much better players, it would have been horrible to overpay for him.

That being said, we haven't really done much with cap space or landing real top 6 wingers since.

 

[Jjbuck]

I really think this will be the season J Staal lives up to his full potential.

Or not, again.

 

[Malkin4Top6Wingerz]

Bottom line, this team is judged by its performance in the playoffs. Sutter has been amazing in the playoffs this year. Carolina's GM has been fired, their coach is gone and the team is playing golf for the second straight year. Jordan played a big role in all of that.

So if Staal and Sutter switched spots Carolina makes the playoffs?

Ridiculous arguments all over the place from you on this. Carolina's GM and coach had more of a hand in Staal's struggles offensively than he is responsible for them losing their jobs.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

Bottom line, this team is judged by its performance in the playoffs. Sutter has been amazing in the playoffs this year. Carolina's GM has been fired, their coach is gone and the team is playing golf for the second straight year. Jordan played a big role in all of that.

Sutter has played less than 10 "amazing" playoff games in his career here in Pit. Staal had 60+ great PO games for us.

We need to cool it a bit on the "Sutter is amazing" talk.

 

[KIRK]

He Shero used the pick on Trouba, FF, Hertl, TT then yes it would have been great. The down grade from Staal to Sutter for the 3+ years till DP is ready during Sid and Geno's prime isn't worth it IMO.

That's the part that galls me. If there had been another piece coming back where there would've been a contribution by now, then it wouldn't look as bad.

Staal did have to go. He wanted to play only center. And, I suppose that he wanted to play with his brother (or it became a nice excuse to be a 2C somewhere he wanted).

But, when and for what he was moved . . . that's on Shero for limiting his options. For moving him in the end, I don't blame Shero one bit.

 

[billybudd]

Carolina hasn't made the playoffs since '09 (which is their only visit since their Cup year in 2006) and has a goalie making $6.25 million who's a back-up at best at this point...pinning Rutherford's exodus on Jordan Staal is laughable.

It certainly played a role in it, but that's about 7th or 8th down the list of reasons.

Thing is, Rutherford hasn't even been sent on an exodus. We're in year five of his five year plan to golf more without giving up any power or earnings. Rutherford's not only still Ron Francis' boss, but his name's on Francis' check, too. He handed the only hat he wears that involves real work to Ronnie Franchise and kept the two sweetheart gigs (Team President, Owner).