Do you think Treliving should stay or go?

[Bounces R Way]

I'm ready to move on but wouldn't throw a fit if they extended him short term either. Run it back for one more year or something.

He did some things well, I like the way the team scouts and drafts. He has failed in other aspects, and yes some of that is being hamstrung by ownership's desire to be a playoff team every year. But you have to think he knew about that accepting the job. Ultimately this is a industry where you are judged on the results, and the results just haven't been good enough. UFA signings and trades have been largely a mixed bag, RFA deals he was pretty good for the most part. Coaching hires have been one disaster after another. Think he's got dealt a middling hand circumstance wise and has mostly delivered a middling product.

The team just keeps acquiring declining assets and then are for some reason shocked when they decline. For some reason I would trust Tre to strip the team down than build it back up.

 

[BRobMint]

I know we all don't like Francis, but this clip he says some interesting stuff here:



For those of ya'll who don't want to watch the clip: Francis said that he believes that Brad's decision to come back is most likely in his own hands. He also said that he believes there definite friction between him and Darryl on their philosophies with the team and he doesn't know if they'll be able to co-exist

 

[Fig]

I know we all don't like Francis, but this clip he says some interesting stuff here:



For those of ya'll who don't want to watch the clip: Francis said that he believes that Brad's decision to come back is most likely in his own hands. He also said that he believes there definite friction between him and Darryl on their philosophies with the team and he doesn't know if they'll be able to co-exist

Eric Francis needs to ask Darryl direction if there's friction between him and Brad on the next media scrum.

Oo... that'd be entertaining. Darryl might throw something at him.

 

[RasmusAndersson]

I am curious how people are so certain that the owners have that mandate given that they fully approved a complete wholesale rebuild in 2013. Like it very well could be true, and some stories seem suspicious (like the Zucker trade story), but I would much prefer a new GM to come in here and kickstart the retool.

I don't think Brad has been awful, and some of his worst moves looked ok at the time and only looked terrible in hindsight, but he simply has not done enough, and he is far too attached to this roster to give it the proper shake-up it needs. I hate the idea of not getting a new GM because we're scared he'll be worse -- if that happens maybe we'd start to suck and somehow get a good pick? Idk, I just think Treliving is kinda mediocre, just like out team, and sometimes change is necessary even if our struggles are only partially Brad's fault. Time for a new GM and a new direction. We can be a good team if we re-tool and play our cards right, we just need someone to be bold and make shrewd moves. Like Detroit selling when they're still in the hunt just to come back stronger next year. That's what we need to be since its clear we don't have what it takes to be a contender.

 

[RasmusAndersson]

Our org has Treliving, Murray and Maloney. That's a Damn strong team and that's not including the fact or other AGM are solid. We have some of the best people (minus maybe goalie coaches). But they aren't allowed to do their thing properly.

Agreed nothing will happen unless ownership sells or just removed the leash on the Damn guys.

Hudler, Russell, Hamilton, Hanifin, Lindholm and Tkachuk trades not slimy enough? He often got those guys for cheaper or sold for more than expected.

Contracts wise, Hanifin, Andersson, Lindholm, Kylington, Gaudreau, Gio, Tkachuk, Brodie etc. Contracts not solid enough?

I'll give you guys UFA though. But that's also seemingly rushed by the mandate vs Treliving not allowed or content to stand pat. We've seen Treliving is OK being patient though. He's learned IMO.



Fair. But that's also again due to playoff mandate. Treliving likes to be patient with prospects to a fault. He'd be a good rebuild gm if he wasn't required to plug the roster with vets to aim for playoffs.

IMO his AHL mandate for development agrees with this concept.

We got a 2nd for Hudler and Russell, nothing special. Also, Hanifin Hamilton Lindholm is all one trade lol, which was definitely his best. Tkachuk trade and subsequent signings look like the nail in the coffin right about now. Again I don't even hate Brad, jsut think he left our roster mediocre and its time to move on. For all those good signings, look at Neal, Brouwer Markstrom, now Huberdeau and Kadri, Rooney (lol), not to mention his holding onto Brodie and Monahan way too long and losing any value (and then selling a 1st to move Monahan with one year lefwhen we miss the playoffs. Brad has made some good trades, and signings, but also has a long list of bad ones in just 7 years. It's time for a change. And if the new GM is worse at least we tried and didn't just settle for mediocrity like we've been doing for years no

 

[Ace Rimmer]

I'll say two things about BT

1. He lets the scouts do their jobs, and I don't recall any stories of him interfering with their selections one way or the other.

2. He probably should have been fired for letting Gaudreau walk to UFA without an extension before Christmas. Unless, of course, that was ownership's mandate.

 

[MM917]

Hold on did I miss a wholesale rebuild in 2013???

They moved a couple of players and drafted low because the team was bad, in large part because they didn't make moves or get value for pieces, not because they tore the team down.

Is this considered a wholesale rebuild now?

 

[CamPopplestone]

I think if we didn't make the playoffs and win a round in 2015, there may have been more patience for a couple seasons. But I wouldn't trade that run without knowing for sure because 2015 was so fun. Zero expectations of playoffs, then losing our top defenseman to injury, and Engelland having the run of his life, making the playoffs again, and knocking out Vancouver? That might have set us back long term. But that was so fun

 

[Tkachuk Norris]

Brad might leave cause of the “situation”… that he put them in. LOL

Talk about jumping from a burning ship.

Honestly as long as we allow button to do his job this team will be fine if they get someone who doesn’t make brutal FA signings

 

[RasmusAndersson]

Hold on did I miss a wholesale rebuild in 2013???

They moved a couple of players and drafted low because the team was bad, in large part because they didn't make moves or get value for pieces, not because they tore the team down.

Is this considered a wholesale rebuild now?

I mean over a span of 1.5 years they moved out Iggy J-Bo Stempkniak Comeau Tanguay Sarich, got a 2nd for Reto Berra, let Cammalleri walk, Kipper retired.

All we had left was Hudler Glencross Backlund Gio and Brodie…‘I’d call that as close to a full scale rebuild as you’re gonna find nowadays

If we did that today (shipped Lindy, Tanev, Toffoli, Hanifin, Vladar, buyout Marky) that would be a wholesale rebuild lol, even if we still kept Rasmus Weegar Mang Dube Backs and then Kadri and Huberdeau cause they’re immovable lol

 

[OvermanKingGainer]

Tre needs to go.

Promote Tod Button to GM

 

[MM917]

I mean over a span of 1.5 years they moved out Iggy J-Bo Stempkniak Comeau Tanguay Sarich, got a 2nd for Reto Berra, let Cammalleri walk, Kipper retired.

All we had left was Hudler Glencross Backlund Gio and Brodie…‘I’d call that as close to a full scale rebuild as you’re gonna find nowadays

If we did that today (shipped Lindy, Tanev, Toffoli, Hanifin, Vladar, buyout Marky) that would be a wholesale rebuild lol, even if we still kept Rasmus Weegar Mang Dube Backs and then Kadri and Huberdeau cause they’re immovable lol

We traded our First round pick in 2015 and as you say kept around a lot of veterans. So if that is a wholesale rebuild lasting under 2 years it is a pretty piss poor attempt.

The return for guys like Iginla and Bouwneester were also much more try to maintain some level of play versus rebuilding with youth.

 

[super6646]

Tre needs to go.

Promote Tod Button to GM

He’s a top 5 Gm. We’ll never survive without him

 

[BRobMint]

 

[MM917]

Why would we want Tod Button as GM?

 

[Tkachuk Norris]

You win the internet today

 

[Tkachuk Norris]

I’m not sure I’d promote Todd to GM because I think amateur scouting is more important. If he has a genius heir picked out then sure.

Why would we want Tod Button as GM?

Since 2007: Tkachuk, Gaudreau, Fox, Andersson, Kylington, Bennett (probably his worst pick), Monahan, Dube, Mangiapane, Ferland, Backlund, Brodie, Pelletier, Kulak. Then we got the next wave led by a future top 5 starter Dustin Wolf. Coronato, Poirier on their way up soon. All that with 3 top ten picks. And Treliving gives away picks like candy.


The following were all top 10 picks in that same time period. McDavid, Hall, Yakupov, Nuge, Draisatl, Puljujaarvi, Bouchard, Nurse, Broberg (books out), Pajarvi, Gagner. Basically the only good picks they made were Klefbom and Eberle.
Then what? Holloway looks good. Skinner probably a decent NHLer. Bourgault and Schaefer are maybes. Personably I think Schaefer already looks very meh.

 

[MM917]

I’m not sure I’d prompt Todd to GM because I think amateur scouting is more important. If he has a genius predecessor picked out then sure.

Since 2007: Tkachuk, Gaudreau, Fox, Andersson, Kylington, Bennett (probably his worst pick), Monahan, Dube, Mangiapane, Ferland, Backlund, Brodie, Pelletier, Kulak. Then we got the next wave led by a future top 5 starter Dustin Wolf. Coronato, Poirier on their way up soon. All that with 3 top ten picks. And Treliving gives away picks like candy.

That looks fine, not great but certainly not terrible. But even if you say it is great, is there a history of pure scouting guys being great GM's? Maybe I just am missing it but it seems like it would be better keeping him in the role he is at than giving him a job where he has a lot more responsibilities that he hasn't shown he can do or has even had any experience in doing.

Personally I would want a full move out of the management group to get some new ideas in if we are moving on from Treliving.

 

[Tofveve]

Eric Francis needs to ask Darryl direction if there's friction between him and Brad on the next media scrum.

Oo... that'd be entertaining. Darryl might throw something at him.

After not knowing his name and calling guy or bud.

I think if we didn't make the playoffs and win a round in 2015, there may have been more patience for a couple seasons. But I wouldn't trade that run without knowing for sure because 2015 was so fun. Zero expectations of playoffs, then losing our top defenseman to injury, and Engelland having the run of his life, making the playoffs again, and knocking out Vancouver? That might have set us back long term. But that was so fun

Too bad no one showed up against Anaheim except Gaudreau a small bit. Reminded of games 2 through 5 of the Edmonton series last year.

Still was a fun first round and man do I miss Hudler.

 

[RasmusAndersson]

We traded our First round pick in 2015 and as you say kept around a lot of veterans. So if that is a wholesale rebuild lasting under 2 years it is a pretty piss poor attempt.

The return for guys like Iginla and Bouwneester were also much more try to maintain some level of play versus rebuilding with youth.

Ya we cut the rebuild short because of a good year which was a huge mistake, doesn’t take away the fact that we moved out basically 75% of our key players and committed to the full rebuild at first.

Also what the returns for Iggy and JBO were straight picks and prospects. Iggy basically demanded Pitts (and he had every right to) and we werent getting much more for JBO. Point being if we sell multiple guys for 1sts and 2nds that’s exactly what we should be doing, doesn’t mean every single vet should go. That’s how u end up without culture for 10 years like the oilers until a McDavid comes around which u can never rely on

If we moved Tanev Backs Hanifin Lindy and Toffoli we’re a bottom-5/10 team, add probably 5 extra 1sts+even more prospects, that’s a massive rebuild and we’d still be keeping guys like Dube Pelletier Coronato Rasmus Weegar Mang and get tons of youth and cap space

 

[joescores]

If he fires that old nut job ASAP, I would give him 2 yr deal.

 

[MM917]

Ya we cut the rebuild short because of a good year which was a huge mistake, doesn’t take away the fact that we moved out basically 75% of our key players and committed to the full rebuild at first.

But it shows a lack of willingness to commit to a wholesale rebuild if we cut it short that quick.

Also what the returns for Iggy and JBO were straight picks and prospects. Iggy basically demanded Pitts (and he had every right to) and we werent getting much more for JBO. Point being if we sell multiple guys for 1sts and 2nds that’s exactly what we should be doing, doesn’t mean every single vet should go. That’s how u end up without culture for 10 years like the oilers until a McDavid comes around which u can never rely on

We got "prospects" that were 22, 24, 26. That is not really a rebuilding move.

And our top players after the move were all around 30. If you don't move out players for a proper rebuild that is how you end up like us with a mediocre team for so long. Those verterans helped us stay away from the top end of the draft where the elite talent was so we missed on getting that elite talent we need. Then cutting it short hurt us as well. Again not committing to a wholesale rebuild and instead just kind of doing it was the problem and led us to where we are now.

If we moved Tanev Backs Hanifin Lindy and Toffoli we’re a bottom-5/10 team, add probably 5 extra 1sts+even more prospects, that’s a massive rebuild and we’d still be keeping guys like Dube Pelletier Coronato Rasmus Weegar Mang and get tons of youth and cap space

In your scenario we are not keeping nearly as much older players as we did previously. I would much prefer the approach you are mentioning here than the half-assed "rebuild" we did in 2013.

Edit: And I forgot the real problem with that rebuild was they waited way to long to start it. I know it is just rumours but some of the reported deals for Iginla the year before would have massively improved the rebuild, waiting until the last minute cut down the return we got.

I fear they are doing the same thing here waiting until we bottom out by lack of talent rather than proactively making moves.

 

[Kranix]

I'll say two things about BT

1. He lets the scouts do their jobs, and I don't recall any stories of him interfering with their selections one way or the other.

2. He probably should have been fired for letting Gaudreau walk to UFA without an extension before Christmas. Unless, of course, that was ownership's mandate.

I still don't know what the whole story is there. Gaudreau said he was ready sign in summer 21 but it "didn't happen." Who's fault is that? If Brad had the money set aside and was going to "do everything" to get Gaudreau signed, why did they wait until the last day, where Johnny apparently was torn until the last second?
I just don't think they could think of trading Johnny that season, with how they were playing. But yes, I contract should have been signed by the deadline 2022.

 

[joescores]

Can I ask? Is it probable that Sutter was one of the biggest if not the reason why Chucky and Johnny left us?

 

[MM917]

Can I ask? Is it probable that Sutter was one of the biggest if not the reason why Chucky and Johnny left us?

Nope