Do you think McDavid is having the best season of the 2000s or the new divisions are the reason?

[Tairy Greene]

Draisaitl (25) had a "career year" but McDavid (24) will play like he does now for years to come?

Im not sure he puts up these numbers every season, but it wouldn't shock me if he does it a few more times.

 

[Mrb1p]

Nobody has said the play-ins are the standard. You said he wouldn't be putting up as many points in another division, when the west has more basement dwellers than the north based on last season, not to mention McDavid has great historical numbers against the strong teams like Vegas and Colorado.

Montreal is a basement dweller, thats the point.

 

[Deep Blue Metallic]

Potential explanations:

(a) McDavid is easily the greatest player alive
(b) the alleged weakness of the North division
(c) your favorite anti-McDavid bullshit not covered by (b)

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Maybe McDavid should have asked to be traded to the East.

Philly has had 16 games where they have let in 5 goals or more, and 3 of 7 or more goals.
Buffalo has had 15 games where they have let in 5 goals or more, including 5 in a row (3 of which were against the Islanders).
New Jersey has had 15 games where they have let in 5 goals or more, including 4 in a row, and 4 in 5.

Vancouver has had 15 games where they have let in 5 goals or more, and 2 of 7 or more goals.
Ottawa has had 12 games where they have let in 5 goals or more, and 4 of 7 or more.


Anaheim has had 14 games where they have let in 5 goals or more.
San Jose has had 14 games where they have let in 5 goals or more.
Arizona has had 10 games where they have let in 5 goals or more (including a 9 spot against Colorado).

CBJ have had 12 games where they have let in 5 goals or more.
Detroit has had 8 games where they have let in 5 goals or more, but of those, 5 were 7 goal games.
Chicago has had 15 games where they have let in 5 goals or more.


Seems like all of the divisions have terrible teams (defensively) at the bottom.
Why people feel the need to discredit McDavid for being in the North this year is baffling.

It's not the worst teams in each division that make the difference. It's the complete lack of a very good/elite defensive team in the North.

The East still has Boston and the Islanders, the top two teams in GA/GP since the start of 2018-19. They also have Pittsburgh, the 11th best team

The Central has Dallas, Carolina, Tampa, and Nashville who have the third, fourth, fifth and 10th lowest GA/GP since 2018-19. Even lowly Columbus is 12th best over that time.

The West has Vegas, Colorado, Arizona and St Louis. 6, 7, 8, 9 in GA/GP since 2018-19.

The highest ranked team from the North over that period is Calgary, at 13th.

Maybe this doesn't definitely prove that the North is weak, but there's literally nothing that proves they aren't weak.

 

[pcruz]

It's not the worst teams in each division that make the difference. It's the complete lack of a very good/elite defensive team in the North.

The East still has Boston and the Islanders, the top two teams in GA/GP since the start of 2018-19. They also have Pittsburgh, the 11th best team

The Central has Dallas, Carolina, Tampa, and Nashville who have the third, fourth, fifth and 10th lowest GA/GP since 2018-19. Even lowly Columbus is 12th best over that time.

The West has Vegas, Colorado, Arizona and St Louis. 6, 7, 8, 9 in GA/GP since 2018-19.

The highest ranked team from the North over that period is Calgary, at 13th.

Maybe this doesn't definitely prove that the North is weak, but there's literally nothing that proves they aren't weak.

What exactly do team stats from 2018 have to do with the teams allowing goals this year?
Is the argument that the teams that have allowed an inordinate amount of goals from 3 of the 4 divisions have not contributed to the inflated stats for offensive players in those 3 divisions?

For some reason, only players from 1 division have had the stigma attached to them of being in an offensive-minded division, despite the other 3 divisions having just as much imbalance between the haves and have nots.

Being a Leaf fan, I find it quite annoying that people keep downplaying Matthews' goal scoring season because "he's in the North".
The same stigma is being thrown at McDavid.

Maybe, if these players faced Philly and NJ and Buffalo and SJ and Arizona, etc.........

McDavid plays against Toronto - 100+ point team in recent years; Winnipeg - great team in recent years and some Vezina guy; Calgary - rather disappointing this season, but had been trending upwards for years; Vancouver - I seem to remember them playing quite late into last year's playoffs.

Stop downplaying what McDavid has done this year.
Would he have a lesser year had he been facing every team in the league? Sure.
But, the exact same thing can and should be said for all offensive leaders this year.

And when you really delve into the competition, McDavid's numbers haven't been inflated any more than those of Mackinnon, Barkov, Huberdeau, Rantanen, Draisaitl, Matthews, Marner, Kane, Aho, etc...

 

[CpatainCanuck]

You are creating false narratives. I've said he's the best in the world currently - everyone knows that. But is he a 145+ point player? No, I don't believe he is, and I don't believe he would sustain his current pace over a full season under normal circumstances. I'll make a prediction since you wouldn't: he will not score 145+ points next year, or ever, for that matter. Dig up this post in a year.

It's not the worst teams in each division that make the difference. It's the complete lack of a very good/elite defensive team in the North.

The East still has Boston and the Islanders, the top two teams in GA/GP since the start of 2018-19. They also have Pittsburgh, the 11th best team

The Central has Dallas, Carolina, Tampa, and Nashville who have the third, fourth, fifth and 10th lowest GA/GP since 2018-19. Even lowly Columbus is 12th best over that time.

The West has Vegas, Colorado, Arizona and St Louis. 6, 7, 8, 9 in GA/GP since 2018-19.

The highest ranked team from the North over that period is Calgary, at 13th.

Maybe this doesn't definitely prove that the North is weak, but there's literally nothing that proves they aren't weak.

Looking deeper at the stats, I don't think your narrative stands up. Edmonton is scoring 3.22 gpg this season; that is up only marginally from last year when they scored 3.14 gpg.

This year McDavid has been on the ice for 107 goals (41pp and 66es); meaning the team has scored 51g in 49gp without McDavid on the ice (1.04gpg)

Last year, McDavid was on the ice for 123 goals by his team (53pp and 70es). Eliminating the tallies from the 7 games McDavid missed shows the oilers scored 80 goals in 64 games without McDavid on the ice (1.25gpg).

How do you explain the Oilers scoring significantly less without McDavid this year over last year if it so much easier to score in the Canadian division this year?

Furthermore, I believe this year the teams in the Canadian division are averaging 2.92gpg. Last year the Canadian teams averaged 3.04gpg. Anybody want to explain this to me within the "Canadian division is terrible defensively" narrative?

 

[BruinsBtn]

The winner of the North should get to play in the real NHL next year with Buffalo relegated to the Canadian division.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Looking deeper at the stats, I don't think your narrative stands up. Edmonton is scoring 3.22 gpg this season; that is up only marginally from last year when they scored 3.14 gpg.

This year McDavid has been on the ice for 107 goals (41pp and 66es); meaning the team has scored 51g in 49gp without McDavid on the ice (1.04gpg)

Last year, McDavid was on the ice for 123 goals by his team (53pp and 70es). Eliminating the tallies from the 7 games McDavid missed shows the oilers scored 80 goals in 64 games without McDavid on the ice (1.25gpg).

How do you explain the Oilers scoring significantly less without McDavid this year over last year if it so much easier to score in the Canadian division this year?

Draisailt scored more points away from McDavid last year than he has this year. That's how I explain it. Who else is going to score for the Oilers? Kassian?

 

[CpatainCanuck]

Draisailt scored more points away from McDavid last year than he has this year. That's how I explain it. Who else is going to score for the Oilers? Kassian?

Yes you're right. But it's interesting isn't it that Draisaitl as well as many of the other star players in the Division aren't able to post better numbers this year; many have had a significant decline in production. Overall, as I pointed out, scoring is down amongst the Canadian teams this year.

 

[jetsforever]

This is whats so funny about this forum, Crosby is given all this merit for his "what-if" and pace seasons. Someone like Matthews is given the exact opposite and posters fight tooth and nail to discredit him, and now Mcdavid, a proven 100 point scorer and clearly the best offensive player in the league, is being held in less regard than a "pace" season 10 years ago.

He's actually doing it. Many players have had hot streaks close to Crosbys, Kopitar and Kessel around the same time period for instance had ridiculous starts to seasons and tapered off, and more recently Kucherov.


For a place that despises Don Cherry, there is a lot of underlying nationalism going on with hockey opinions over this season.

I can't wait for the next excuses

You know Crosby and McDavid are both Canadian right?

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

What exactly do team stats from 2018 have to do with the teams allowing goals this year?
Is the argument that the teams that have allowed an inordinate amount of goals from 3 of the 4 divisions have not contributed to the inflated stats for offensive players in those 3 divisions?

For some reason, only players from 1 division have had the stigma attached to them of being in an offensive-minded division, despite the other 3 divisions having just as much imbalance between the haves and have nots.

Being a Leaf fan, I find it quite annoying that people keep downplaying Matthews' goal scoring season because "he's in the North".
The same stigma is being thrown at McDavid.

Maybe, if these players faced Philly and NJ and Buffalo and SJ and Arizona, etc.........

McDavid plays against Toronto - 100+ point team in recent years; Winnipeg - great team in recent years and some Vezina guy; Calgary - rather disappointing this season, but had been trending upwards for years; Vancouver - I seem to remember them playing quite late into last year's playoffs.

Stop downplaying what McDavid has done this year.
Would he have a lesser year had he been facing every team in the league? Sure.
But, the exact same thing can and should be said for all offensive leaders this year.

And when you really delve into the competition, McDavid's numbers haven't been inflated any more than those of Mackinnon, Barkov, Huberdeau, Rantanen, Draisaitl, Matthews, Marner, Kane, Aho, etc...

It shows how these teams have performed over the last ~200 games, including this season. Sure, there's some variation from one season to the next, but overall, the teams in the top 10 for GA/GP over a 200+ game sample size are better defensively than the teams in the bottom half of the league.

I'm also not saying that there aren't bad teams in the other divisions. I'm saying that there isn't a good defensive team in the North to balance their bad teams. The other divisions all have very good defensive teams, along with a couple of bad teams. The North had a bunch of mediocre teams, along with a couple of bad ones. That's why the North is getting singled out and the accomplishments of the North players from this season are being legitimately questioned.

The fact that you admit that he would have a lesser year, had he been facing every team in the league, shows that you agree with me. Would he still be leading the league? Probably. Would it be by this much? I have significant doubts. And no one can prove otherwise.

As for your last point, McDavid is 0.26 above his PPG from last year. Matthews is 0.18 above his previous best. Marner is 0.10 above his. Of the non-North guys in your list, Rantanen is the only one more than 0.05 above his previous career best, and he's 0.09. Barkov, Huberdeau, Kane and Aho aren't even putting up career best years. Why is it just the top guys from the North who are seeing this much improvement?

 

[Tobias Kahun]

It shows how these teams have performed over the last ~200 games, including this season. Sure, there's some variation from one season to the next, but overall, the teams in the top 10 for GA/GP over a 200+ game sample size are better defensively than the teams in the bottom half of the league.

I'm also not saying that there aren't bad teams in the other divisions. I'm saying that there isn't a good defensive team in the North to balance their bad teams. The other divisions all have very good defensive teams, along with a couple of bad teams. The North had a bunch of mediocre teams, along with a couple of bad ones. That's why the North is getting singled out and the accomplishments of the North players from this season are being legitimately questioned.

The fact that you admit that he would have a lesser year, had he been facing every team in the league, shows that you agree with me. Would he still be leading the league? Probably. Would it be by this much? I have significant doubts. And no one can prove otherwise.

As for your last point, McDavid is 0.26 above his PPG from last year. Matthews is 0.18 above his previous best. Marner is 0.10 above his. Of the non-North guys in your list, Rantanen is the only one more than 0.05 above his previous career best, and he's 0.09. Barkov, Huberdeau, Kane and Aho aren't even putting up career best years. Why is it just the top guys from the North who are seeing this much improvement?

Young players hitting their prime?

 

[McFlash97]

The winner of the North should get to play in the real NHL next year with Buffalo relegated to the Canadian division.

McDavid would torch Boston without Chara. Whos going to stop him...McAvoy ? Boston may be a better team.. but watch 97 lately ?

 

[North Cole]

Is Arizona 21st because they got significantly worse, or is it because they've been dominated in 8 games against the Avs? Almost makes me wonder how the North teams would do if they had to play Colorado 8 times. I'm guessing it would have a pretty significant impact on their GA/GP numbers.

Same logic - Is Ottawa really that bad or is it just that they got dominated by EDM for 0-9 record and 4.55 GA/G? Without the EDM games, they are 3.23 ga/g, which is an improvement from their 3.35 ga/g last year.

I agree, if Colorado played in the North it likely would impact GA/GP numbers. Given that you also think that, I question why you don't think this is also true of EDM if they were to play in the West? Seems like you are applying different logic to both divisions, why is it that the North sucks because McDavid is lighting it up, but the West gets a pass for being light up by Colorado?

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Yes you're right. But it's interesting isn't it that Draisaitl as well as many of the other star players in the Division aren't able to post better numbers this year; many have had a significant decline in production. Overall, as I pointed out, scoring is down amongst the Canadian teams this year.

It absolutely is interesting that Drai isn't doing better, but, he's still rocking the 2nd highest PPG in the NHL this season, so it's not like he's struggling. And I still question if he'd be 1.45 PPG against the entire league, or are his numbers still slightly inflated due to playing against mostly mediocre/bad teams?

As for the rest of the "star" players, there's isn't a one-size-fits-all answer here. Some of them struggled last year too (Gaudreau). Some of them are youngsters who put up career best seasons and are struggling to replicate them (Connor, Pettersson, etc). Some of them are older, and this may just be the start of their inevitable decline (Wheeler). I struggle to explain any of them with "the North is strong defensively", since that's obviously not the case.

 

[North Cole]

It absolutely is interesting that Drai isn't doing better, but, he's still rocking the 2nd highest PPG in the NHL this season, so it's not like he's struggling. And I still question if he'd be 1.45 PPG against the entire league, or are his numbers still slightly inflated due to playing against mostly mediocre/bad teams?

As for the rest of the "star" players, there's isn't a one-size-fits-all answer here. Some of them struggled last year too (Gaudreau). Some of them are youngsters who put up career best seasons and are struggling to replicate them (Connor, Pettersson, etc). Some of them are older, and this may just be the start of their inevitable decline (Wheeler). I struggle to explain any of them with "the North is strong defensively", since that's obviously not the case.

I mean, you shouldn't question the bolded at all - NHL Art Ross Trophy Winners | Hockey-Reference.com

1.55 PPG in 71 games last year before COVID-19, vs the entire league.

 

[authentic]

Yes you're right. But it's interesting isn't it that Draisaitl as well as many of the other star players in the Division aren't able to post better numbers this year; many have had a significant decline in production. Overall, as I pointed out, scoring is down amongst the Canadian teams this year.

Which is what makes Matthews and McDavid's seasons just so remarkable. They are essentially just that good.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Same logic - Is Ottawa really that bad or is it just that they got dominated by EDM for 0-9 record and 4.55 GA/G? Without the EDM games, they are 3.23 ga/g, which is an improvement from their 3.35 ga/g last year.

I agree, if Colorado played in the North it likely would impact GA/GP numbers. Given that you also think that, I question why you don't think this is also true of EDM if they were to play in the West? Seems like you are applying different logic to both divisions, why is it that the North sucks because McDavid is lighting it up, but the West gets a pass for being light up by Colorado?

2 years ago, Ottawa had the highest/worst GA/GP in the year. Last year, they had the 2nd highest/worst GA/GP. This year, they are 3rd highest GA/GP. I think it's pretty safe to say they are still really bad. Maybe they'd only be 4th worst in a regular season, but I doubt they'd be anywhere other than the basement.

Edmonton has a lower GF/GP than Colorado and Vegas, and is tied with Minnesota for 8th at 3.22. Would adding a team in the middle of the West have anywhere near the same impact as adding a new best team, by a significant margin, to the North? I'd guess that Edmonton's scoring rates would go down more than the GA/GP would go up for the rest of the West, but who can say for certain?

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

I mean, you shouldn't question the bolded at all - NHL Art Ross Trophy Winners | Hockey-Reference.com

1.55 PPG in 71 games last year before COVID-19, vs the entire league.

So, because he did it once before, he'll definitely do it every single year from now on? And, zero chance that last year was his best ever, never to be replicated?

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Young players hitting their prime?

Doesn't explain why they are concentrated in the North. Why are 4 of the 5 top scorers from the North all setting career highs, while "young players hitting their primes" from other divisions aren't doing the same?

 

[McFlash97]

So, because he did it once before, he'll definitely do it every single year from now on? And, zero chance that last year was his best ever, never to be replicated?

After winning 3 Art Ross Trophies by age 24 he becomes just the 2nd player in hockey history to do so.

Guess who is the other guy.


Everything 97 does can be done by 97 again.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

After winning 3 Art Ross Trophies by age 24 he becomes just the 2nd player in hockey history to do so.

Guess who is the other guy.


Everything 97 does can be done by 97 again.

That's great. What does that have to do with Draisaitl or my post?

 

[North Cole]

So, because he did it once before, he'll definitely do it every single year from now on? And, zero chance that last year was his best ever, never to be replicated?

Doubt he will do it every year. But he's second in the NHL in PPG and was first last year. So im not sure why you predict a huge regression were he to play the whole league when he smoked the whole league last year...

2 years ago, Ottawa had the highest/worst GA/GP in the year. Last year, they had the 2nd highest/worst GA/GP. This year, they are 3rd highest GA/GP. I think it's pretty safe to say they are still really bad. Maybe they'd only be 4th worst in a regular season, but I doubt they'd be anywhere other than the basement.

Edmonton has a lower GF/GP than Colorado and Vegas, and is tied with Minnesota for 8th at 3.22. Would adding a team in the middle of the West have anywhere near the same impact as adding a new best team, by a significant margin, to the North? I'd guess that Edmonton's scoring rates would go down more than the GA/GP would go up for the rest of the West, but who can say for certain?

Of course they're still really bad, but that ga/g excluding Edmonton is 9th worst, up from 3rd. So using your method of adjusting for the one team that dominated them, as you've done with the Yotes, shows significant improvement for Ottawa. Yes Edmonton has a much lower gf/g, because the 4 teams at the bottom of the West are awful, thats what I'm talking about.

The original conversation was about having the Oilers play against the west, not moving one team from the west to the north. You've once again turned this into apples v oranges. How does it make sense to you to compare moving Colorado to the North with moving the Yotes to the North? That's no remotely the same thing.

If EDM and COL switched places i imagine Colorado is still top 5 is gf/g, and I'd imagine that McDavid does just as well if not better. Which is the original conversation until you started trying to make excuses for Arizona and equate Colorado playing 6 new teams, to Edmonton playing 1 cherry picked team from the West. This whole thought experiment seems to have been turned around on itself.

 

[CpatainCanuck]

It absolutely is interesting that Drai isn't doing better, but, he's still rocking the 2nd highest PPG in the NHL this season, so it's not like he's struggling. And I still question if he'd be 1.45 PPG against the entire league, or are his numbers still slightly inflated due to playing against mostly mediocre/bad teams?

As for the rest of the "star" players, there's isn't a one-size-fits-all answer here. Some of them struggled last year too (Gaudreau). Some of them are youngsters who put up career best seasons and are struggling to replicate them (Connor, Pettersson, etc). Some of them are older, and this may just be the start of their inevitable decline (Wheeler). I struggle to explain any of them with "the North is strong defensively", since that's obviously not the case.

Nobody is saying "the North is Strong Defensively", it is you and others like you who are arguing that the North is incredibly weak defensively. In that regard, you seem to have started with a conclusion and are sticking to it despite the facts not backing it up.

You and others like you are essentially making the claim that McDavid's increase in production from 1.51ppg last year to 1.78ppg so far this year is mostly due to games being limited to intra-divisional play in a division full of bad defensive teams. If this was true you would expect to see a similar increase in production, percentage wise, amongst all the players in the Canadian division this year, at least on average. This is not the case: scoring by Canadian teams is actually down this year compared to last. Your hypothesis is completely refuted by the facts.

 

[HockeyVirus]

Generational player hits prime years and has best season of their career. Makes sense right? Not to many on here. Apparently he peaked at 23.