Do you think McDavid is having the best season of the 2000s or the new divisions are the reason?

[mcdingdong]

It's not the worst teams in each division that make the difference. It's the complete lack of a very good/elite defensive team in the North.

The East still has Boston and the Islanders, the top two teams in GA/GP since the start of 2018-19. They also have Pittsburgh, the 11th best team

The Central has Dallas, Carolina, Tampa, and Nashville who have the third, fourth, fifth and 10th lowest GA/GP since 2018-19. Even lowly Columbus is 12th best over that time.

The West has Vegas, Colorado, Arizona and St Louis. 6, 7, 8, 9 in GA/GP since 2018-19.

The highest ranked team from the North over that period is Calgary, at 13th.

Maybe this doesn't definitely prove that the North is weak, but there's literally nothing that proves they aren't weak.

Bolded: that is some galaxy brain shit! Imagine trying to 'win' an argument with this guy?

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Doubt he will do it every year. But he's second in the NHL in PPG and was first last year. So im not sure why you predict a huge regression were he to play the whole league when he smoked the whole league last year...

Where did I predict a huge regression, exactly? I'm wondering if maybe he'd have a few less points, and be closer to 1.4 PPG (~2 fewer points) or somewhere around there. For that matter, would McDavid be this far ahead of everyone, or might it be a couple of points closer? They can be the top 2 scorers while also having inflated numbers. These two things aren't mutually exclusive.

Of course they're still really bad, but that ga/g excluding Edmonton is 9th worst, up from 3rd. So using your method of adjusting for the one team that dominated them, as you've done with the Yotes, shows significant improvement for Ottawa. Yes Edmonton has a much lower gf/g, because the 4 teams at the bottom of the West are awful, thats what I'm talking about.

The original conversation was about having the Oilers play against the west, not moving one team from the west to the north. You've once again turned this into apples v oranges. How does it make sense to you to compare moving Colorado to the North with moving the Yotes to the North? That's no remotely the same thing.

If EDM and COL switched places i imagine Colorado is still top 5 is gf/g, and I'd imagine that McDavid does just as well if not better. Which is the original conversation until you started trying to make excuses for Arizona and equate Colorado playing 6 new teams, to Edmonton playing 1 cherry picked team from the West.

Arizona was the 3rd best defensive team in the NHL last year and 5th best the year before. This year, they are 21st best. Trying to explain what changed isn't really the same as making excuses for a team that has been horrible for years, no matter how much you want to pretend.

And, if the Oilers went to the West, they'd actually have to play against good defensive teams, which would most likely have a larger negative impact on their GF/GP than the positive impact of a couple of extra games against teams who are still better defensively than Ottawa and Vancouver. They'd also be tied with Minnesota for the 3rd highest GF/GP in the West, so their impact on the GA/GP of the teams in the West probably wouldn't be all that significant. Adding more to the middle of a group doesn't change averages that much.

On the other hand, if Colorado got to play in the North, they'd probably be leading the NHL in GF/GP by even more, since they wouldn't have 8 games against Vegas bringing down their average. Or is there some defensive powerhouse in the North that I can't see that would keep them in check?

 

[King K Rool]

If your argument consists of a whole bunch of "sure, buts" and you think posting a wall of text compensates for a poor argument, you've LOST

Why is it almost always Avalanche fans who are trying to tear down McDavid or minimize his accomplishments? So petty and small! Why can't you just enjoy the best player in hockey?

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Nobody is saying "the North is Strong Defensively", it is you and others like you who are arguing that the North is incredibly weak defensively. In that regard, you seem to have started with a conclusion and are sticking to it despite the facts not backing it up.

You and others like you are essentially making the claim that McDavid's increase in production from 1.51ppg last year to 1.78ppg so far this year is mostly due to games being limited to intra-divisional play in a division full of bad defensive teams. If this was true you would expect to see a similar increase in production, percentage wise, amongst all the players in the Canadian division this year, at least on average. This is not the case: scoring by Canadian teams is actually down this year compared to last. Your hypothesis is completely refuted by the facts.

Of the 4 divisions, the North is objectively the worst defensively, from top to bottom. There's simply no evidence that suggests otherwise, unless you completely ignore that there are 2 elite defensive teams in the West, and none in the North. The North also has the single worst defensive team between either division. A bunch of mediocre and some bad doesn't make the North anything other than horrible.

Also, what "facts" do you think have been presented that proves, beyond all doubt, that McDavid would definitely be scoring at this rate against the rest of the league? Is there zero chance that maybe he'd have 2-3 fewer points? Any chance you have more than someone's unsubstantiated opinion to prove it? No? Then my doubts are completely justified.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

If your argument consists of a whole bunch of "sure, buts" and you think posting a wall of text compensates for a poor argument, you've LOST

Why is it almost always Avalanche fans who are trying to tear down McDavid or minimize his accomplishments? So petty and small! Why can't you just enjoy the best player in hockey?

He can be the best player in the world while also playing in the worst division. These two things are not mutually exclusive.

 

[iCanada]

Of the 4 divisions, the North is objectively the worst defensively, from top to bottom. There's simply no evidence that suggests otherwise, unless you completely ignore that there are 2 elite defensive teams in the West, and none in the North. The North also has the single worst defensive team between either division. A bunch of mediocre and some bad doesn't make the North anything other than horrible.

Also, what "facts" do you think have been presented that proves, beyond all doubt, that McDavid would definitely be scoring at this rate against the rest of the league? Is there zero chance that maybe he'd have 2-3 fewer points? Any chance you have more than someone's unsubstantiated opinion to prove it? No? Then my doubts are completely justified.

For a division that's objectively the worst defensively, it's kind of strange that there is only one Canadian team in the bottom half of the league in GA, no?

 

[gotcha90]

It's nothing more than wishful thinking. There is not much from history to suggest McDavid will continue to improve. If fact, there are many examples of the very best players in the game who have not improved after the age of 24. Some have had their best years in their late 20s, like Sakic, but the majority have not improved, points-wise, past age 24.

Using PPG and a few greats:
Gretzky had his best year at the age of 24.
Lemieux had his best year at the age of 23.
Crosby had his best year at the age of 19!
Ovechkin had his best year at the age of 24.

Lemieux hit his highest PPG at age 27. He also won the Hart, Masterton, Pearson and Ross - while playing only 60 games (in case that season was excluded because of games - it shouldn't be).

Declining league scoring over most of these player's careers may have contributed to earlier points-based-peaks. To provide an opposite example, Kane hit peak points at age 30, but league scoring actually increased over his career. Using 'adjusted points' as the metric, some great players peaked in their mid-to-late 20's (Gretzky 25, Malkin 25, Kane 27, Forsberg 29. Source: hockey-reference.com).

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Bolded: that is some galaxy brain shit! Imagine trying to 'win' an argument with this guy?

You better imagine using something other than conjecture and unprovable assertions.

 

[Leafsfan74]

All of this year will be an asterisk outside of the playoff battles. You can only control your game , it's not the players fault.

However, it's far too unique to not at least appreciate the differences between this year and a "real" season.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

For a division that's objectively the worst defensively, it's kind of strange that there is only one Canadian team in the bottom half of the league in GA, no?

Ottawa is currently the 3rd worst team in terms of GA/GP. Vancouver is 7th worst. Calgary is 15th worst. That's 3 Canadian teams in the bottom half of the 31 team league, by my count. And Montreal is 16th worst, right smack dab in the middle, so it's really half the Canadian teams (3 1/2) in the bottom half of the league. Plus, Winnipeg is 15th worst, which is barely in the top half.

On the other side of the equation, Toronto is the "best" defensive team in the North, but only 8th best in the NHL, with at least 2 teams from each division being at least 0.12 GA/GP better than the Leafs. So, it's not like they have some elite defensive teams bringing up the average.

 

[eviohh26]

Not even the worst division lol.

 

[avsfan9]

It's not the division.

He's incredible!

You don’t think he may have scored less points playing Tampa, Boston, Carolina , avs , blues and Vegas rather than feasting on the sens and canucks 15-20 games?

 

[CpatainCanuck]

Of the 4 divisions, the North is objectively the worst defensively, from top to bottom. There's simply no evidence that suggests otherwise, unless you completely ignore that there are 2 elite defensive teams in the West, and none in the North. The North also has the single worst defensive team between either division. A bunch of mediocre and some bad doesn't make the North anything other than horrible.

Also, what "facts" do you think have been presented that proves, beyond all doubt, that McDavid would definitely be scoring at this rate against the rest of the league? Is there zero chance that maybe he'd have 2-3 fewer points? Any chance you have more than someone's unsubstantiated opinion to prove it? No? Then my doubts are completely justified.

The word "objectively" means something different than how you're using it.

You still haven't given any evidence that the North Division is worse defensively than the rest of the NHL. The fact that North Division has only 1 team in the worst 6 in GAA, and 2 teams in the worst 14, is pretty compelling evidence that the North is not the worst division defensively in the NHL.

Goals Per Game (And therefore Goals Against Per Game) by Division:

Central: 2.84
West: 2.91
North: 2.94
East: 2.97
League Average: 2.92

Apparently the North and West Divisions are the closest, statistically, to being representative of the mean in the nhl in terms of goals scored.

 

[Brucelenok]

No. It still doesn't touch Ovy '08, 10 seasons. Probably Malkin 11/12 as well.

 

[Homesick]

You don’t think he may have scored less points playing Tampa, Boston, Carolina , avs , blues and Vegas rather than feasting on the sens and canucks 15-20 games?

He just needs to add 5-6 more games against the Avs
13GP 11G 12A 23 points

 

[Senor Catface]

What a laugh to see anyone who attributes it to the division.

Let's see who the top 10 teams are for goals against per game.

1. Philly
2. Buffalo
3. Ottawa
4. New Jersey
5. San Jose
6. Columbus
7. Vancouver
8. Chicago
9. Anaheim
10. St. Louis

The way people talk you would think it would be 1-7 of all North teams.

McDavid would be roasting all these sad sack Swiss Cheese teams.

 

[avsfan9]

He just needs to add 5-6 more games against the Avs
13GP 11G 12A 23 points

We probably see in the playoffs but I doubt the oilers get out of the first round when the whistles go away and they have to match up 5 on 5 for most of the game

 

[Homesick]

We probably see in the playoffs but I doubt the oilers get out of the first round when the whistles go away and they have to match up 5 on 5 for most of the game

lol that will be the Avs problem since they draw the most penalties per game in the league

 

[avsfan9]

lol that will be the Avs problem since they draw the most penalties per game in the league

Spin it whatever way you want to but the avs are a serious threat to win the cup and the oilers are not. And it still doesn’t negate the fact that if this was a regular season Mcdavid wouldn’t have the points he has this year.

 

[authentic]

Lemieux hit his highest PPG at age 27. He also won the Hart, Masterton, Pearson and Ross - while playing only 60 games (in case that season was excluded because of games - it shouldn't be).

Declining league scoring over most of these player's careers may have contributed to earlier points-based-peaks. To provide an opposite example, Kane hit peak points at age 30, but league scoring actually increased over his career. Using 'adjusted points' as the metric, some great players peaked in their mid-to-late 20's (Gretzky 25, Malkin 25, Kane 27, Forsberg 29. Source: hockey-reference.com).

Also there are far more 27+ Art Ross winners than there are 24 and under in NHL history.

 

[authentic]

What a laugh to see anyone who attributes it to the division.

Let's see who the top 10 teams are for goals against per game.

1. Philly
2. Buffalo
3. Ottawa
4. New Jersey
5. San Jose
6. Columbus
7. Vancouver
8. Chicago
9. Anaheim
10. St. Louis

The way people talk you would think it would be 1-7 of all North teams.

McDavid would be roasting all these sad sack Swiss Cheese teams.

Lol exactly. The weak North Division argument is a weak argument.

 

[Shibumi]

Spin it whatever way you want to but the avs are a serious threat to win the cup and the oilers are not. And it still doesn’t negate the fact that if this was a regular season Mcdavid wouldn’t have the points he has this year.

Just because you state "the fact that if this was a regular season..." obviously it is not a fact just because you wrote it. It is conjecture, opinion, and or a hypothesis.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

The word "objectively" means something different than how you're using it.

You still haven't given any evidence that the North Division is worse defensively than the rest of the NHL. The fact that North Division has only 1 team in the worst 6 in GAA, and 2 teams in the worst 14, is pretty compelling evidence that the North is not the worst division defensively in the NHL.

Goals Per Game (And therefore Goals Against Per Game) by Division:

Central: 2.84
West: 2.91
North: 2.94
East: 2.97
League Average: 2.92

Apparently the North and West Divisions are the closest, statistically, to being representative of the mean in the nhl in terms of goals scored.

The North is the only division that didn't have a team in the top 12 in terms of GA/GP for the last 2 season with interdivisional play. They had 4 teams in the middle of the pack (Calgary 13, Winnipeg, 14, Montreal 16, Vancouver 18) and 3 in the bottom 10, including the worst defensive team in the NHL (Ottawa).

Every other division has multiple teams that have been better than the best defensive team in the North, and zero teams that are worse than Ottawa. How can the North be anything other than the worst, as a whole? And, no, the division scoring rates from this year isn't meaningful when it comes to comparing the defensive prowess of the individual teams within the divisions. In fact, there's very little from this season that is statistically relevant for interdivisional comparisons, but even that doesn't bode well for the North, whose best defensive team is 8th in the NHL, significantly behind at least 2 teams from every other division. Seems pretty objective to me.

Is there anything other than wishful thinking and irrelevant statistics that shows the North isn't the worst division defensively? Or should we all just pretend that it's true to make the Canadian fans feel better?

 

[TheNumber4]

According to Leafs media, Auston Matthews is having the best season of ALL TIME. Behold Leafs Nation:

 

[avsfan9]

Just because you state "the fact that if this was a regular season..." obviously it is not a fact just because you wrote it. It is conjecture, opinion, and or a hypothesis.

Well.. it’s my opinion that he wouldn’t have as many points if this was a regular season