Do you still support Ken Holland and Mike Babcock?

[RedWingsForPresident]

They both have been nothing short of excellent since they came to Detroit. I don't know how you can not support them

Complain about lines and cap space and signings etc. They have proven all of us (critics) wrong

 

[Flowah]

well I'm not sure if this is even a question? why take out a guy having hot hands? I'm not sure if it's going to be danny cleary but obviously someone other than Tatar will be coming off. or rather not getting back in.

Did you seriously just say that Cleary has hot hands? The most that can be said for his game against the Sabres is he didn't get scored on while on the ice. That's not hot hands. That's barely holding steady against an inferior team.

Congrats Cleary. Congrats. Now, let's see if you can catch this pass. *throws water bottle*

Bottom line is whether we win or not. If we're winning, I'm ok with keeping the lineup as is. It's hard to win in pro sports, so if a winning formula is found, it's generally going to be kept.

That's your bottom line? As long as we're winning you have no qualms, even if it's a detriment to the future of the organization? Rather short-sighted of you, don't you think?

I'd rather ice a better team now, win more now, get the future core of this team some experience so we can continue to be a solid team in the future. But if you'd rather just play the vets and eek out games vs bottom dwellers....

I dont believe they sent him down for no reason. Wings needed scoring last season why send him down for no reason?

Then you didn't watch him last year.

And moreover, why do you think there's no reason? Afterall, both Babcock and Holland have been pretty clear about Nyquist making this team better and he's still down in GR for "no reason" other than the mess created by Holland. So you have to accept that at least sometimes, this organization creates its own disasters and has to ice an inferior team because of it.

However, execution speed in NHL is just totally different from AHL.

Again... you clearly have not watched him play. He had 4 goals and 3 assists in 18 games last year in the NHL. That's more than Nyquist in fewer games. He put up the third best P/60 numbers on the entire team. His AHL domination translated fully into NHL competence. I don't know exactly how you're coming up with this "derp derp he hasn't proven anything at the NHL level yet." But I feel like an 18 game stint on the third line putting up those numbers is pretty damn good and more than enough of a sample size to say "Yes, this kid is legit. Let's keep him up."

And I also don't get how Babs and Kenny don't see that Tatar and Gus are better players and bring more to the table than the old stiffs.

They both know Nyquist is a better player than some of our current roster. They've said as much. But again, Holland handcuffed himself with terrible asset management.

That's what is so amazing to me about people defending the current decisions being made. Management and Babcock have in their own words said how Nyquist makes the team better, and he's still not up. And that's no one's fault but managements! And Babcock has said how Tatar is equally as good as some of the vets on the team and yet he is still the one in the press box.

Some people are acting like the Holland/Babs consider Tatar/Nyquist a liability and that's why they aren't getting played. That is clearly not the case, by their own damn words.

 

[Chillwavin]

Everyone who says "they do not have my support" should be required to say who they would hire to replace them...

 

[Vladdy84]

Everyone who says "they do not have my support" should be required to say who they would hire to replace them...

Blash

 

[RedWingsNow*]

Everyone who says "they do not have my support" should be required to say who they would hire to replace them...

Why?

 

[Chance on Chance]

Everyone who says "they do not have my support" should be required to say who they would hire to replace them...

Jim Nil and one of the many coaches that were available this off season

 

[WingedWheel1987]

They both have been nothing short of excellent since they came to Detroit. I don't know how you can not support them

Complain about lines and cap space and signings etc. They have proven all of us (critics) wrong

They have been excellent up to the 2009-2010 season. It's 2013. And no, don't let those dates fool you into thinking the lack of cup wins have anything to do with it.

How have they proven us all wrong?

Can i get a single shred of evidence where they have proven the critics wrong since the 2009-2010 season?

Or i can i expect another "22 years of playoffs" and "four cups" rebuttal?

 

[ricky0034]

I understand your point: Tatar has to OUTPLAY his competition.

I hope he gets to play 7 games in the first 14. (would be nice if someone like Cleary is benched for the exact 7 Tatar plays). Then we could compare their stats. If Tatar has 2 Goals - 3 Assists and Cleary has nothing... What do you think would happen then?

obviously the tie would go to the vet

edit:

at this point I just want Nyquist or Tatar(either one) to say something along the lines of(not to the media or anything like that,in private via marching into Holland's office or something) "I've had enough,i'm clearly good enough to play in the NHL and I've been more than patient but here I am yet again not in the NHL but in the press box/back in Grand Rapids so you can continue to pretend that guys like Dan Cleary are good hockey players. If you and Babcock aren't going to play me then trade me to one of the other 29 teams that will."

it would suck to lose them but short of management being replaced(not happening) it's the only thing that might stop this nonsense a little and Tatar and Nyquist are just the tip of the iceberg,the Wings have a ton of good prospects that will be ready over the next few years and the longer this stuff goes on the more damage it will do

 

[probertrules24]

I still support both at this point.

though it has dropped compared to past years. I'm in the camp that believes both Nyquist and Tatar should be on the roster and do believe they both will be. My guess they play around 60 games each. Of course my support for Holland has dropped a little because of Nyquist not starting the season and support for Babcock for sitting Tatar.

I do understand this is a business and Holland is trying to manage assets while Babcock is leaning on vets. This early on in the season and winning the first game I will still support both. If the Wings hit a 3 game loosing streak and neither are put in the line-up my support may vanish.

 

[Flowah]

I do understand this is a business and Holland is trying to manage assets while Babcock is leaning on vets.

If it's a business, why are they putting loyalty over "best possible product?" That's what so many of these signings are amounting to. Cleary most egregiously of all.

at this point I just want Nyquist or Tatar(either one) to say something along the lines of(not to the media or anything like that,in private via marching into Holland's office or something) "I've had enough,i'm clearly good enough to play in the NHL and I've been more than patient but here I am yet again not in the NHL but in the press box/back in Grand Rapids so you can continue to pretend that guys like Dan Cleary are good hockey players. If you and Babcock aren't going to play me then trade me to one of the other 29 teams that will."

I'd love to hear it. But I'd love for both players to be on the team more. So I hope they don't say it. It would suck if that's what's necessary for Babs/Holland to wake the hell up.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Blash

Those of us that are up in the air on Babcock have been quite clear on a replacement for the most part.

 

[Frk It]

I no longer support Ken Holland and Mike Babcock.

Flame away

 

[WingedWheel1987]

If you look at just this off season and still think Holland has any master plan and knows what he is doing, well i would like to introduce you to my friend, David Koresh. He is looking for people with a similar mental makeup.

 

[TheNextDaigle]

I no longer support Ken Holland and Mike Babcock.

Flame away

If you want to be flamed, you have to SUPPORT them.

 

[Sadekuuro]

I think it's clear at this point that Holland should've been put out to pasture (not fired but promoted to President or some other do-nothing front office sinecure) a few years ago.

Jury's still out on Babcock, a terrific motivator but subpar tactician, especially because management seems to ignore every roster-related request he makes.

 

[RayMoonDoh]

They both have great track records. I can say im not as confident in them as i once was.

But, if we win, im happy

 

[Mount Royal]

That's your bottom line? As long as we're winning you have no qualms, even if it's a detriment to the future of the organization? Rather short-sighted of you, don't you think?

I'd rather ice a better team now, win more now, get the future core of this team some experience so we can continue to be a solid team in the future. But if you'd rather just play the vets and eek out games vs bottom dwellers....

Maybe. We don't know if it's a real detriment to the future though. That's why I'll take the wins now...but we do have to win.

Apart from this reason, you've listed the same reasons I've wanted to see Gus and Tatar. I want to see what they can bring on a consistent basis. But again, I'll wait so long as we're winning.

And If Babcock thinks he's icing the best team right now, I'd take his word over yours.

I think it's clear at this point that Holland should've been put out to pasture (not fired but promoted to President or some other do-nothing front office sinecure) a few years ago.

Jury's still out on Babcock, a terrific motivator but subpar tactician, especially because management seems to ignore every roster-related request he makes.

This is something I don't understand. How is Babcock a subpar tactician?

 

[LeighDx59]

I still support both of them, I just wish they would change their way of doings things abit. And yes, I'm in that boat of people who are furious that Nyquist is in the AHL and Tatar is in the pressbox.

 

[Sadekuuro]

This is something I don't understand. How is Babcock a subpar tactician?

He's good at some aspects, but he doesn't seem nearly as good at Xs and Os as many coaches. Suboptimal line combinations. Not great at making in-game adjustments (as opposed to after or between games). Doesn't always utilize his rosters to their full potential--it often seems like he wants players to push through and succeed in spite of him rather than putting them in situations that maximize their potential contributions.

Why? Do you guys think he's an amazing Xs and Os guy? The way I see it, his strengths lie elsewhere.

 

[Mount Royal]

He's good at some aspects, but he doesn't seem nearly as good at Xs and Os as many coaches. Suboptimal line combinations. Not great at making in-game adjustments (as opposed to after or between games). Doesn't always utilize his rosters to their full potential--it often seems like he wants players to push through and succeed in spite of him rather than putting them in situations that maximize their potential contributions.

Why? Do you guys think he's an amazing Xs and Os guy? The way I see it, his strengths lie elsewhere.

I think he puts the Wings in the best position they can be in. I said it earlier, we played against top teams like Anaheim and Chicago and we won or came within a goal of winning. I think that's the impact Babs has.

 

[Vladdy84]

I think he puts the Wings in the best position they can be in. I said it earlier, we played against top teams like Anaheim and Chicago and we won or came within a goal of winning. I think that's the impact Babs has.

Tell me more.

 

[theYman]

They both make decisions that make you scratch your head sometimes, but it somehow works out . Yeah its weird.

 

[Mount Royal]

Tell me more.

I've listed examples earlier in this thread.

I disagree strongly. His lineups, allocation of playing time and refusal to play younger more talented players have prevented this team from reaching conference finals the past couple years IMO.

You think?

We lost to San Jose two years in a row because we we weren't playing the youth?

Who should we have played against Nashville the year after that? Or Chicago last season?

I think these losses are on Holland's hands. I remember against SJ people were commenting that their bottom-6 looked like six Helms. With better depth plus a strong top six (like Detroit had, though Dats and Z are tops between either team), they had a better roster. And we nearly came back from down 3-0 in 2011.

Nashville was a bad series all around. Nobody apart from Howie, Z, and Ericsson (surprisingly enough) played well in my eyes.

Chicago. Cup champs with a great roster. Detroit brought them to the brink, and we had youth. You'd take out Cleary despite the fact that he was actually producing?

No, I can't blame Babs for these losses. Coaches are hired to be fired, and are only as good as the talent around them in the end. We've got a good top-six (still would prefer Bert to Abby), then the roster falls off. Defence is ok (being 5th in GA last season was a result of team defence, imo). Jimmy's great.

This roster, even with Tatar and Gus, is only going to do so much in a series against stacked teams like Boston and Chicago. If the roster is the issue, it falls to Kenny.

But that's just my opinion anyway.

 

[Filppula]

Pretty much done with Babcock at this point.

Cleary
Bertuzzi
Samuelsson

How these guys play while Nyquist is in GR and Tatar is in the pressbox is a disgrace.

 

[Tomas W]

And Brunner has already scored three goals, just wanted to mention that in this thread.

Babs is still a great coach but he and his boss needs to let go of some people, they grow to attached!