Do you still support Ken Holland and Mike Babcock?

[BinCookin]

way too many fans love to tout the successes but loathe to accept the failures

15 years ago.... hasent been able to uneath one really significant and impactful forward or dmen(55 pt ceiling franzens are a dime a dozen)

First off, 55 Pt (50-60Pt) players, or 20 goal scores are NOT a dime a dozen, or most teams would have 9-12 of them. Top line players do not grow on trees. And MOST of those quality players are drafted in the top 15 positions in the draft. Detroit has not held such a position in roughly 20 years.

2nd. We have alot of Dmen now there. Sadly this was mostly forced by retirements, but whatever, they look ok.

Also 13 players on the Red Wings were draft picks (heard this in the buffalo game) whereby Six of the buffalo sabres players were draft picks. (that is drafted by THEIR team). This is a pretty considerable number. It is just alot of these guys are now older.

if nyquist, tatar, jurco, ferraro, sheahan, etc arent yet capable of playing a regular shift in the NHL...

Nyquist and Tatar are ready. We all know this... what is our management doing!?

who scouts and drafts little guys with skill if the organization then turns around and says they're too small to play in the NHL 4, 5, 6 years after they were drafted to begin with?

This is an amazing point. If we are making a team where the bottom 6 have skill (all young kids are cheap) then we should field a team that matches this. If we wanted big players, we should draft that way. I think Detroit is CLEARLY the team that is on one EXTREME, that is all small, skilled players, our bottom six should be either small skilled players that win the game for you OR small skilled players that are getting outmuscled and oft injured. Either way, that would MATCH our drafting style.

Because of the complete lack of top6 talent that the Wings have drafted and have played in the NHL regularly in the past 8 years, there are only two conclusions you can draw.

1. Our drafting and development is terrible.
2. garbage taking up spots on the roster.


Again. Neither explanation is favorable to the organization.

Again in all fairness we have ON AVERAGE the WORST draft position for 20 years, due to winning the most out of any team for 20 years. This can explain why we don't have the kind of talent other teams do.

Even if you want to take the last 6-7 years. We have been placing quite high in the standing still. People want to say we are not contenders anymore, but we are still in the top 1/3rd of teams, so drafting 20-30 is standard. Few other teams CONSISTENTLY pick in this range. I am sure you can find maybe 1-2 teams as an example, but the BASIS of this point is clear.

Again though, these points do not mean that our organization is drafting well.. just that if you wanna do this better, show me all the teams that have Solid top 9 talents drafted in the 20th or over position. Show me a team that has ALOT of these players. Then realize that due to Detroits 20 year history in this department, show me a team that has ALL of their players drafted higher than this position. Well no one else has our run of luck, so this is an impossible exercise.

I said a couple of bounces from potentially going all the way. Not a couple of bounces from competing. It's a big difference. We already were competing in my opinion. But maybe I have a different view of what competing for the cup is.

There are some serious negative nancies on this board. Also when people start saying we "have not been contenders" since 2009, this is a spoiled viewpoint. Also NOT true. Look up season ending stats for 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 and realize we are in the top 7-8 teams in all of hockey every year (I would quote my own long work on this, but am too lazy to look it up. IMO that is a contender. If you want to be TOP 3, every year... suck it up spoiled people NO TEAM IN HOCKEY REMAINS THE BEST FOR THAT LONG! NO ONE!

Again this does not mean I do not agree with their points. Holland is TOO conservative. Holland is too loyal. I hate the lineup now. I agree with them with alot of what they are talking about. But for this point. I agree completely with you.

all that is clear is ken holland isnt as good as everyone thought he was or believed he was

I agree with you. I don't think Holland is amazing. I think his conservativeness is better than Holmgren who just burned the philly team into the ground. I think Hakan Anderson is the reason we are good. Thanks alot Hakan Cheers

 

[ShanahanMan]

Time for a revote?

 

[RedWingsNow*]

First off, 55 Pt (50-60Pt) players, or 20 goal scores are NOT a dime a dozen, or most teams would have 9-12 of them. Top line players do not grow on trees. And MOST of those quality players are drafted in the top 15 positions in the draft. Detroit has not held such a position in roughly 20 years.s

Really man -- 20 goal, 50 point guys aren't that big a deal.
Every team has a PP unit. And even the worst PPs are going to score goals.
Forwards Only
Lets go back to 11-12, the last full season
Anaheim 3 20 goal scorers. 4 50 point (actuallly 3 25s and 4 55s)
Boston 6 20 goal guys (plus 17 and 16). 5 60 point guys
Buffalo 3 20 goal guys 3 50 point guys
Calgary 3 and 3
Carolina 2 and 1 (plus 4 guys with 17 goals)
Chicago 5 20 goals, 4 50 points
Colo 3 and 3
Columbus 2 and 2
Dallas 3 and 4
Detroit 4 and 5
Edmonton 2 and 3
Florida 2 and 3
LA 3 and 3
Minn 2 and 1
MTL 2 and 3
NAS 2 and 3
NJD 3 and 4
NYI 4 and 3
NYR 3 and 4
OTT 3 and 3
PHI 4 and 3 (with 3 guys with 49 and one with 47)
PHX 3 and 3
PIT 5 and 5
SJ 3 and 4
STL 2 and 2 (7 15-goal scorers)
TB 5 and 3
TOR 3 and 3
VAN 3 and 3
WAS 3 and 2
WIN 3 and 3

So basically, every team that's not an absolute joke as 2-4 20 goal guys and 2-3 50 point guys.

If you're a first line player and first unit PP forward -- 20 goals and 50 points is not a great feat

It's standard. It's expected.

 

[Frk It]

I used to be a BIG supporter of Babcock, and a BIG critic of holland.

Now a days I can't decide which one of these guys I like less.

 

[detredWINgs]

I used to be a BIG supporter of Babcock, and a BIG critic of holland.

Now a days I can't decide which one of these guys I like less.

To me, its not one or the other - its the way they're complicit in one another's actions. They allow one another to indulge in their weaknesses. It's like they got together and one day decided "Hey, if you don't care that I retain almost every veteran we have from year to year, I'll be sure to bring in only desperate grinders who will gladly buy into your grinding, two-way demands out of desperation to keep their NHL careers alive."

And thus, we have the likes of Samuelsson, Cleary, and Bertuzzi - against all logic - receiving cemented positions in the lineup.


Right now, I look around the league at the Silfverbergs and the Gallaghers and the Saads flourishing - none of them preordained high first rounders or power forwards - and I just want to cry at the way loyal Red Wings fans are instead being "rewarded" with watching the Samuelssons and the Bertuzzis and the Alfredssons fizzle out.

 

[BinCookin]

Really man -- 20 goal, 50 point guys aren't that big a deal.
Every team has a PP unit. And even the worst PPs are going to score goals.
Forwards Only
Lets go back to 11-12, the last full season
Anaheim 3 20 goal scorers. 4 50 point (actuallly 3 25s and 4 55s)
Boston 6 20 goal guys (plus 17 and 16). 5 60 point guys
Buffalo 3 20 goal guys 3 50 point guys
Calgary 3 and 3
Carolina 2 and 1 (plus 4 guys with 17 goals)
Chicago 5 20 goals, 4 50 points
Colo 3 and 3
Columbus 2 and 2
Dallas 3 and 4
Detroit 4 and 5
Edmonton 2 and 3
Florida 2 and 3
LA 3 and 3
Minn 2 and 1
MTL 2 and 3
NAS 2 and 3
NJD 3 and 4
NYI 4 and 3
NYR 3 and 4
OTT 3 and 3
PHI 4 and 3 (with 3 guys with 49 and one with 47)
PHX 3 and 3
PIT 5 and 5
SJ 3 and 4
STL 2 and 2 (7 15-goal scorers)
TB 5 and 3
TOR 3 and 3
VAN 3 and 3
WAS 3 and 2
WIN 3 and 3

So basically, every team that's not an absolute joke as 2-4 20 goal guys and 2-3 50 point guys.

If you're a first line player and first unit PP forward -- 20 goals and 50 points is not a great feat

It's standard. It's expected.

1 Issue though. You are counting the SAME guys, in many of these cases. I.E. a guy with 20 goals AND 50 pts you have put in both categories.

I see 3 50 Pt guys in Vancouver:

Daniel Sedin (also 20goals)
Henrik Sedin
Kesler 49pts (22goals)
Burrows (also 28 goals)

So 3-3 is 4 players.

If you erase superstars for these teams most teams have only 1 and at most 2 20 goal/50 pt men. So no, they are not a dime a dozen.

It means basically that they are QUALITY 2nd liners.

There are on average about 1-2 quality 2nd liners (who put up those stats on most teams)... So there are 30-60 of them total. Is that a dime a dozen?

As much as we all hate how lazy Franzen looks, he puts up solid numbers that is not EASILY replacable.
You imply that We can just stick any winger up there, and they will get 20-30 goals, and 50-60 pts because thats what first liners/2nd liners do. This did not work for Filppula (Except 1 year with Zetterberg). Would Brunner ever produce this much?

I know you like Grabovski. He is this type of player for Toronto
Mike Ribiero is this type of player. I mean we are basically naming people who are not superstars, but they are pretty darn good.

If we put Nyquist on the top line right now.. I am not sure he can get 50 pts that easily. I hope he can like you do. But lets not just trivialize the quality of Franzen's numbers just because you don't like him. He is one of the better point producers and goal scorers in the league. And you can trade him for maybe 1-2 players on other teams to replace him, and likely CANT replace him with a prospect or a 3rd liner on our team etc etc. So Again, not a dime a dozen.

 

[BinCookin]

To me, its not one or the other - its the way they're complicit in one another's actions. They allow one another to indulge in their weaknesses. It's like they got together and one day decided "Hey, if you don't care that I retain almost every veteran we have from year to year, I'll be sure to bring in only desperate grinders who will gladly buy into your grinding, two-way demands out of desperation to keep their NHL careers alive."

And thus, we have the likes of Samuelsson, Cleary, and Bertuzzi - against all logic - receiving cemented positions in the lineup.


Right now, I look around the league at the Silfverbergs and the Gallaghers and the Saads flourishing - none of them preordained high first rounders or power forwards - and I just want to cry at the way loyal Red Wings fans are instead being "rewarded" with watching the Samuelssons and the Bertuzzis and the Alfredssons fizzle out.

The lack of any rookies does indeed make me have LESS to cheer for. I want to see Nyquist, Tatar, Brunner become 3rd liners, or 2nd liners, or maybe even first liners. I want to see one of them do it for the wings.
Brunner is gone. The other two are not even playing. And someone like Andersson, who is a "dime a dozen" 3rd line center is getting real minutes.

I am hoping for a BAD start to the season... Thus a reason to change the culture in Detroit. Because the locker room will have more enthusiasm in it, with someone trying to earn their place. I was glad when Andersson scored today with NO assist for cleary/bertuzzi/sammy. I hope all 3 do AMAZING, or HORRIBLY. That way they help us win easy, or are freaking gone SOON!

 

[mindfly]

These two bums make mistake after mistake, but they are still employed, imagine if you did that at your job all the time, would you not get fired?.... this is just BS, FIRE BABCOCK AND HOLLAND NOW.

 

[probertrules24]

I think I've lost a little more favor for both this year but will still support them in the hopes the needed changes will take place.

For me the most frustration comes from Babcock who I think is a great coach but is so set in his ways. You see players that seem to stagnate in our organization and don't produce offensively like they should. It seems Babcock would be happy winning every game 1-0 and doesn't want to let his players play the game they know or are comfortable with. Not every player is going to have the defensive game of Pav and Z.

I know it's a very small sample size but to me Weiss is good example. He's mentioned how coming here and picking up the system has been a little difficult as they don't play a zone defense and more man. Just my observations but it looks like he is so worried he's not going to pick up his man that his offensive game is hurting now.

I would rather see a guy play to his strengths and succeed then try to change his game into something that it isn't. I have no problems winning 4-2 5-3 every game.

Not to leave Holland out as he's made a few mistakes as well but I give him a little more slack as he's also trying to run a business and make sure they ice a competitive team. The two mistakes I see him making were signing Samuelsson and Cleary. Though these mistakes aren't going to be the downfall of the organization like some people would like to believe. Even after making these deals he was still able to find a way to get under the cap. Though a lot of people do not like his methods, he's doing his job.

Don't get me wrong I wish those two contracts were never signed and believe they were mistakes but they were both short term and hopefully will be done next year.

Would I like to see him become more aggressive again with free agents and trades. Yes. The only problem with that is I don't want to see moves just make moves. Holland has become complacent and loves the playoff streak. I don't see him making any radical moves to jeopardize that.

Just remember things could be worse. Holland could of re-signed Lilja and Babcock could be playing him in the top 4 right now. Those were some low times being a Wings fan for me.

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

In a way, these two have similar philosophies: "do ___ and good things happen." Babcock thinks you shoot the puck and good things happen. Holland thinks you make the playoffs and good things happen. It's like they've completely embraced that they cannot control their destinies. You just play the percentages and eventually things go right.

But what an ugly, unambitious philosophy that is. It's applied mediocrity.

 

[Winger98]

Not in the last decade, unless you consider "last decade" to mean from 2010 on.

No idea why people do that.

Not even if you go from 2010. Look at the teams who haven't made the playoffs for the past 3-5 years, and the teams that have bounced in and out of the playoffs. Imagine if we were Edmonton. Or Dallas. Or Carolina. Or Florida. Or Tampa. Or Columbus. Or Calgary. Or Buffalo. etc. etc. Organizations that continually talk about the future while not making the playoffs and whose futures never seem to materialize. And I know some of these teams are doing well right now, but get back to me after game 82.

Holland screws up, everyone screws up. Guy has done far more right than wrong, though.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

Not even if you go from 2010. Look at the teams who haven't made the playoffs for the past 3-5 years, and the teams that have bounced in and out of the playoffs. Imagine if we were Edmonton. Or Dallas. Or Carolina. Or Florida. Or Tampa. Or Columbus. Or Calgary. Or Buffalo. etc. etc. Organizations that continually talk about the future while not making the playoffs and whose futures never seem to materialize. And I know some of these teams are doing well right now, but get back to me after game 82.

Holland screws up, everyone screws up. Guy has done far more right than wrong, though.

to be fair though, none of those teams have a datsyuk AND zetterberg, two of arguably the top ten players in the league, for its almost exclusively because of those two players we have made the playoffs the last 3-5 years and not because of the following(which is what is being brought up)
-players ken holland has drafted in the last 3-5 years
-players ken holland has developed in the last 3-5 years
-waiver wire acquistions ken holland has made in the last 3-5 years
-trades ken holland has made in the last 3-5 years
-ufa signings ken holland has made in the last 3-5 years

and on top of that, not only has he failed in each of those 5 managerial categories in bringing in significant and impactful talent to help during those years and today, but, and perhaps more importantly done so to help us 3 years from now

 

[JmanWingsFan]

In a way, these two have similar philosophies: "do ___ and good things happen." Babcock thinks you shoot the puck and good things happen. Holland thinks you make the playoffs and good things happen. It's like they've completely embraced that they cannot control their destinies. You just play the percentages and eventually things go right.

But what an ugly, unambitious philosophy that is. It's applied mediocrity.

Since when is playing the percentages applied mediocrity? You really can't control your destiny. There are simply things you can't control. Moreso in Hockey than in any other sport. Playing the percentages is just how any GM or Coach behaves in the professional leagues. Numbers are what sports are.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

A good GM attempts to minimize the role luck plays in determining your fate. Holland has built a team that relies exclusively on luck. That will fail 99.9% of the time. The team that has the puck the longest, ends up having the most puck luck.

It's not a coincidence why the Wings have been on the wrong end up "puck luck" the past four years.

 

[Winger98]

to be fair though, none of those teams have a datsyuk AND zetterberg, two of arguably the top ten players in the league, for its almost exclusively because of those two players we have made the playoffs the last 3-5 years and not because of the following(which is what is being brought up)
-players ken holland has drafted in the last 3-5 years
-players ken holland has developed in the last 3-5 years
-waiver wire acquistions ken holland has made in the last 3-5 years
-trades ken holland has made in the last 3-5 years
-ufa signings ken holland has made in the last 3-5 years

and on top of that, not only has he failed in each of those 5 managerial categories in bringing in significant and impactful talent to help during those years and today, but, and perhaps more importantly done so to help us 3 years from now

09/10 Roster
13/14 Roster

16 guys from the 09/10 roster are no longer with the organization. Guys who have stepped into those vacated spots so far this year:

Weiss
Alfredsson
Abdelkader
Emmerton
Tatar
Smith
Dekeyser
Andersson

And that's not counting re-signings Samuelsson and Quincey, or guys who haven't played yet like Mrazek, Gustavson, Tootoo, Lashoff, and Nyquist.

That doesn't look like someone who has drafted and developed poorly, or who hasn't made any significant signing in the UFA market. He's turned the roster over in a significant way over the past five years, and has worked a lot of young guys onto the roster that came up through the system.

 

[Winger98]

In a way, these two have similar philosophies: "do ___ and good things happen." Babcock thinks you shoot the puck and good things happen. Holland thinks you make the playoffs and good things happen. It's like they've completely embraced that they cannot control their destinies. You just play the percentages and eventually things go right.

But what an ugly, unambitious philosophy that is. It's applied mediocrity.

But to shoot the puck you have to have possession of the puck. To have possession of the puck, you have to keep it from the other team, which requires some pretty good players. That's not a philosophy that just relies on percentages but on putting a team together that controls play and keeps the other team from applying consistent pressure or maintaining possession.

Now, the Wings clearly aren't playing that game well right now. Part of that, I agree entirely with a lot of other people lately, the makeup of the lines. part of it is that we are leaning on some kids who haven't been able to adequately fill their roles yet - and I mean the blueline by that.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

09/10 Roster
13/14 Roster

16 guys from the 09/10 roster are no longer with the organization. Guys who have stepped into those vacated spots so far this year:

Weiss
Alfredsson
Abdelkader
Emmerton
Tatar
Smith
Dekeyser
Andersson

And that's not counting re-signings Samuelsson and Quincey, or guys who haven't played yet like Mrazek, Gustavson, Tootoo, Lashoff, and Nyquist.

That doesn't look like someone who has drafted and developed poorly, or who hasn't made any significant signing in the UFA market. He's turned the roster over in a significant way over the past five years, and has worked a lot of young guys onto the roster that came up through the system.

emmerton, tatar, smith and andersson have not made significant impacts to our success

if datsyuk and zetterberg go down will those guys will the holes? of course not as they're complimentary players or not seemingly not good enough to get in the lineup

the signings of sammy and quincey were and are terrible

as far as development, not one, again not one single forward drafted in the last six years by KH is currently in our top 9 and making a significant impact game after game

as far as guys not in the lineup, every single NHL team can and does say the exact same thing, same words even.

KH's best moves the last # of years(lets go with 5) are
-dekeyser signing
-weiss signing

and thats about it

 

[Winger98]

emmerton, tatar, smith and andersson have not made significant impacts to our success

if datsyuk and zetterberg go down will those guys will the holes? of course not as they're complimentary players or not seemingly not good enough to get in the lineup

the signings of sammy and quincey were and are terrible

as far as development, not one, again not one single forward drafted in the last six years by KH is currently in our top 9 and making a significant impact game after game

as far as guys not in the lineup, every single NHL team can and does say the exact same thing, same words even.

KH's best moves the last # of years(lets go with 5) are
-dekeyser signing
-weiss signing

and thats about it

Emmerton and Andersson have slid into the bottom6 center spots and have assumed a large share of the PK duties. Smith has held down 18+ minutes a night, including a chunk of PK time, last season and this season. I don't care for Emmerton, but those aren't insignificant contributions.

Will they step in for Z or D? Of course not, but how many teams across the league have enough guys to step in and fill the shoes of two top ten players in the league, if they go down? Five teams, maybe?

And best moves or good moves? In the past five years he's moved Smith and Kindl into the top6 D. Ericsson was allowed to grow into a bigger role. He singed Brunner. He's deepened the organization's talent pool. He's eased the transition into the post Lidstrom era, and has maintained a solid organization while losing two key parts of the front office (Yzerman and Nill, arguably a third depending on how significant you see Bowman's loss).

I'm not thrilled with his roster management, either, but he's rebuilt the lion's share of his roster over the past five years, and has put a team on the lineup that has pretty consistently went out, won games, and gotten us into the playoffs. Which is a lot more than can be said for a lot of organizations.

 

[DatsyukToZetterberg]

Time for a revote?

I'm not one to normally overreact and change my opinion but Babcock has really been disappointing me with some of his lineup decisions. Benching Smith, which I don't have to much of an issue with though I don't think he's the biggest problem on D for us, & not benching someone like Franzen for his recent efforts. I think you bench Franzen put in Tatar & see what happens, one is 5 or 6 inches shorter but he plays a tenacious game & puts in 200% more effort, not to mention he's also a shooter & would slot in well on the 2nd line.

In regards to Holland I think he's lost sight of the overripe policy, & his MO in general. I think the allure of breaking the consecutive all time playoff appearances has caused him to become complacent in that he's afraid to argument our core to improve our current team because he wants to keep the pieces that will allow us to break the record. We don't have another Datsyuk or Zetterberg in the system & once those 2 retire we will be in for a rough 3 or 4 years. We shouldn't be gutting the system but trading off some of our extra pieces from a position of strength shouldn't be such a strange occurrence, especially when our window for the Stanley Cup is closing.

With regards to the overriping system, when the players blocking your top NHL prospects are Hull, Robitaille, Shanahan, etc. it's ok they were still productive NHLers & they were still worth it. Fast forward to today where we are blocking our top guys with players like Cleary, Samuelsson & Bertuzzi it's not anywhere close to the same. I get that they want the prospects to have to work to make it to the NHL, that they have to beat out the old grizzled veteran but when does it just become pointless? We aren't even icing the best possible team, though that seems to be more of Babcock than Holland, & it sucks as a fan to have to watch crap "Grind em up" hockey.

 

[Johnz96*]

I'm not one to normally overreact and change my opinion but Babcock has really been disappointing me with some of his lineup decisions. Benching Smith, which I don't have to much of an issue with though I don't think he's the biggest problem on D for us, & not benching someone like Franzen for his recent efforts. I think you bench Franzen put in Tatar & see what happens, one is 5 or 6 inches shorter but he plays a tenacious game & puts in 200% more effort, not to mention he's also a shooter & would slot in well on the 2nd line.

In regards to Holland I think he's lost sight of the overripe policy, & his MO in general. I think the allure of breaking the consecutive all time playoff appearances has caused him to become complacent in that he's afraid to argument our core to improve our current team because he wants to keep the pieces that will allow us to break the record. We don't have another Datsyuk or Zetterberg in the system & once those 2 retire we will be in for a rough 3 or 4 years. We shouldn't be gutting the system but trading off some of our extra pieces from a position of strength shouldn't be such a strange occurrence, especially when our window for the Stanley Cup is closing.

With regards to the overriping system, when the players blocking your top NHL prospects are Hull, Robitaille, Shanahan, etc. it's ok they were still productive NHLers & they were still worth it. Fast forward to today where we are blocking our top guys with players like Cleary, Samuelsson & Bertuzzi it's not anywhere close to the same. I get that they want the prospects to have to work to make it to the NHL, that they have to beat out the old grizzled veteran but when does it just become pointless? We aren't even icing the best possible team, though that seems to be more of Babcock than Holland, & it sucks as a fan to have to watch crap "Grind em up" hockey.

When Datsyuk and Zetterberg were in the system we didn't have another Yzerman or Fedorov in the system.
Cleary Samuelsson and Bertuzzi who are way past their primes.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

I'm not one to normally overreact and change my opinion but Babcock has really been disappointing me with some of his lineup decisions. Benching Smith, which I don't have to much of an issue with though I don't think he's the biggest problem on D for us, & not benching someone like Franzen for his recent efforts. I think you bench Franzen put in Tatar & see what happens, one is 5 or 6 inches shorter but he plays a tenacious game & puts in 200% more effort, not to mention he's also a shooter & would slot in well on the 2nd line.

In regards to Holland I think he's lost sight of the overripe policy, & his MO in general. I think the allure of breaking the consecutive all time playoff appearances has caused him to become complacent in that he's afraid to argument our core to improve our current team because he wants to keep the pieces that will allow us to break the record. We don't have another Datsyuk or Zetterberg in the system & once those 2 retire we will be in for a rough 3 or 4 years. We shouldn't be gutting the system but trading off some of our extra pieces from a position of strength shouldn't be such a strange occurrence, especially when our window for the Stanley Cup is closing.

With regards to the overriping system, when the players blocking your top NHL prospects are Hull, Robitaille, Shanahan, etc. it's ok they were still productive NHLers & they were still worth it. Fast forward to today where we are blocking our top guys with players like Cleary, Samuelsson & Bertuzzi it's not anywhere close to the same. I get that they want the prospects to have to work to make it to the NHL, that they have to beat out the old grizzled veteran but when does it just become pointless? We aren't even icing the best possible team, though that seems to be more of Babcock than Holland, & it sucks as a fan to have to watch crap "Grind em up" hockey.

I think Holland's window is essentially closed with Datsyuk getting old.
All efforts need to be made to find an elite, young, world class two-way center.

That needs to be priority #1.,..

Jarnkrok, Janmark and Sheahan are not that guy.

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

I think Holland's window is essentially closed with Datsyuk getting old.
All efforts need to be made to find an elite, young, world class two-way center.

That needs to be priority #1.,..

Jarnkrok, Janmark and Sheahan are not that guy.

I think this problem is going to solve itself in the form of a high draft pick in the near future.

I'm also not so sure we should sell Jarnkrok and Janmark completely short. Elite? Hell no. But one of them might be a #2 center who can play on the PP.

 

[DatsyukToZetterberg]

When Datsyuk and Zetterberg were in the system we didn't have another Yzerman or Fedorov in the system.
Cleary Samuelsson and Bertuzzi who are way past their primes.

1 year after Zetterberg was drafted we knew we had something special. Datsyuk on the other hand wasn't highly thought of until he came over even then it wasn't apparent that he would become the dominant 2way #1C we know today.

I can't say for sure that we won't get another #1C but I doubt that we'll get that lucky again.

 

[Sadekuuro]

In regards to Holland I think he's lost sight of the overripe policy, & his MO in general. I think the allure of breaking the consecutive all time playoff appearances has caused him to become complacent in that he's afraid to argument our core to improve our current team because he wants to keep the pieces that will allow us to break the record.

The record being (if memory serves) 29 straight seasons, we're not even really that close, and there's no way this roster makes the playoffs for several more consecutive years without some proactive moves being made. If you're still letting the same roster decay, forget it.

 

[BinCookin]

I think Holland's window is essentially closed with Datsyuk getting old.
All efforts need to be made to find an elite, young, world class two-way center.

That needs to be priority #1.,..

Jarnkrok, Janmark and Sheahan are not that guy.

I wonder sometimes what people expect.

Many are unhappy with Holland/Babcock, but mostly for LITTLE things: (cleary, samuelsson)(Hossa not being resigned).

You expect to find a #1 Center? With no draft pick below 15?
-Impossible.
It will never happen. Maybe EVEN IF YOU HAVE a low pick.

The team HAS to get bad, before you replace superstars.
I thought this was true and then Detroit pulled the impossible... Yzerman, Shanahan out... and magically our young kids got good.
This could happen again with Nyquist/Tatar/Jarnkrok/etc... one can only hope. But if they turn into Filppula's and Hudler's shouldn't we also be happy? Quality 2nd liners are nothing to scoff at.

Do not blame Ken for not finding new world class 2 way players... because I dont think anyone else could have done that with what Detroit had to work with either. I infact think Ken has done a great job trading down to get 2 2nd rounders each year and make our prospect pool stronger.

I have some serious complaints. But lets at LEAST be realistic about the outcome of different people in our management roles.