Do you still support Ken Holland and Mike Babcock?

[BinCookin]

List names an numbers and it sounds great.

It's great that we give 4th liners a shot.
Maybe it's great to you that guys like Kindl and Smith are getting their chance at 25 or 26 years old.

But cold hard truth is that we haven't produced an impact player since when? Franzen? Howard?

So your point is new young superstar or bust?

I think Nyquist and Tatar are those guys. They are the highest skilled guys we have.

We have been drafting low for a long time. Yes Giroux was low, yes Benn was low. But common. I have to do entirely too much research to prove that the odds detroit had an option to get a superstar were unlikely.
-Do you think Blashill is doing a bad job developing the draft picks?
-Do you think we are drafting stupidly? And that our picks are dumb?
-Do you want Holland to trade these prospects for someone good? (If the prospects are not good, who will trade for them).
I think you are being too tough on a team that really couldnt have drafted much better considering their position.

Maybe we need to discuss what other teams (EVERY other teams) superstar, or at least non-4th liner, taken in the 2nd round (Lets deal with only forwards).

According to HF's we are ranked 11th in prospects. This is pretty good considering we have been drafting about 22nd-26th last 5-6 years.

 

[BinCookin]

Even so, 14 of the Wings current regulars on the roster are 100% products of Wings drafting. That's 60% on a 23 man roster.

And that number is only expected to increase as I didn't include Nyquist and Mrazek. And there's a half dozen other guys that are guaranteed to get chances to earn spots like Jurco, Frk, Mantha, Ouellet and others.

The Wings live and die on their drafting. A better question is when is the last time a free agent was an impact player for the Wings? I don't think I'm going to like the answer...

.... mmmmm....
mmmm

I don't know. LOL

Edit: Rafalski!!! I got one!

 

[Bench]

Benn was low.

And a total surprise. It's akin to getting Zetterberg that late. If you're going to downplay that pick, you've got to downplay other teams surprise finds.

Dallas drafting has actually been a total bust with its 1st round picks. Guys like Fistric and Niskanen. All their better players have come in later rounds, and even then, they're still trying to get a single playoff birth in 6 years, so there's that.

 

[Bench]

.... mmmmm....
mmmm

I don't know. LOL

Edit: Rafalski!!! I got one!

At least you didn't say Hossa.

 

[TheNextDaigle]

List names an numbers and it sounds great.

It's great that we give 4th liners a shot.
Maybe it's great to you that guys like Kindl and Smith are getting their chance at 25 or 26 years old.

But cold hard truth is that we haven't produced an impact player since when? Franzen? Howard?

Excuse me, but wasn´t Smith closer to 22-23 than 25-26 when he was "broken" into the team?

 

[RedWingsNow*]

So your point is new young superstar or bust?

I think Nyquist and Tatar are those guys. They are the highest skilled guys we have.

We have been drafting low for a long time. Yes Giroux was low, yes Benn was low. But common. I have to do entirely too much research to prove that the odds detroit had an option to get a superstar were unlikely.
-Do you think Blashill is doing a bad job developing the draft picks?
-Do you think we are drafting stupidly? And that our picks are dumb?
-Do you want Holland to trade these prospects for someone good? (If the prospects are not good, who will trade for them).
I think you are being too tough on a team that really couldnt have drafted much better considering their position.

Maybe we need to discuss what other teams (EVERY other teams) superstar, or at least non-4th liner, taken in the 2nd round (Lets deal with only forwards).

According to HF's we are ranked 11th in prospects. This is pretty good considering we have been drafting about 22nd-26th last 5-6 years.

My point is that the Red Wings have been great for 25 years because we've had more skill than most teams.

Our GM keeps drafting skill guys -- and we've done well getting small, skilled guys late -- players overlooked because they were small.

But we've got a coach who doesn't promote players into the skill roles. Instead he wants heavy players and he promotes them into our fourth line.

Well -- if the way into the Wings lineup is the 4th line -- skill guys are screwed.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

Excuse me, but wasn´t Smith closer to 22-23 than 25-26 when he was "broken" into the team?

Do you consider Smith "broke in"

Let's put our offensive defenseman in a dump and chase system, not use him on the PP but use him on the PK.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

Even so, 14 of the Wings current regulars on the roster are 100% products of Wings drafting. That's 60% on a 23 man roster.

And that number is only expected to increase as I didn't include Nyquist and Mrazek. And there's a half dozen other guys that are guaranteed to get chances to earn spots like Jurco, Frk, Mantha, Ouellet and others.

The Wings live and die on their drafting. A better question is when is the last time a free agent was an impact player for the Wings? I don't think I'm going to like the answer...

LOL
that's not a better question.
When you're signing UFAs, you're generally getting guys who are known quantities.
If we don't sign "impact players" it's because we didn't want them or they didn't want us.
It next to nothing to do with our development.

 

[Sadekuuro]

Excuse me, but wasn´t Smith closer to 22-23 than 25-26 when he was "broken" into the team?

Only because we lost three of our top four D in just over a year's time. If we still had Lidstrom-Rafalski Kronwall-Stuart as a top four, he'd be getting the Kindl treatment from a few years ago.

(And 22-23 is still years later than almost anyone else starts breaking their good prospects in anyway.)

 

[Bench]

LOL
that's not a better question.

I was setting you up for a joke. Thanks for playing, anyway.

 

[Chance on Chance]

Our drafting since Franzen hasn't been anything special or better then any other teams. You can say the 5 or 6 players on our team we drafted but I can do the same for every team. True they have some higher picks bit we seems to bomb our first rounders

 

[Bench]

Our drafting since Franzen hasn't been anything special or better then any other teams. You can say the 5 or 6 players on our team we drafted but I can do the same for every team. True they have some higher picks bit we seems to bomb our first rounders

Yeah, it's competitive. Which is pretty good, all things considered. There will be more emphasis moving forward for players like Mantha to pan out, that's for sure.

 

[BinCookin]

My point is that the Red Wings have been great for 25 years because we've had more skill than most teams.

Our GM keeps drafting skill guys -- and we've done well getting small, skilled guys late -- players overlooked because they were small.

But we've got a coach who doesn't promote players into the skill roles. Instead he wants heavy players and he promotes them into our fourth line.

Well -- if the way into the Wings lineup is the 4th line -- skill guys are screwed.

agreed!

 

[Chance on Chance]

Yeah, it's competitive. Which is pretty good, all things considered. There will be more emphasis moving forward for players like Mantha to pan out, that's for sure.

I think we should get 2 d men out of our current crop. Really hope we draft more centers though we seem weak there

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

So your point is new young superstar or bust?

I think Nyquist and Tatar are those guys. They are the highest skilled guys we have.

We have been drafting low for a long time. Yes Giroux was low, yes Benn was low. But common. I have to do entirely too much research to prove that the odds detroit had an option to get a superstar were unlikely.
-Do you think Blashill is doing a bad job developing the draft picks?
-Do you think we are drafting stupidly? And that our picks are dumb?
-Do you want Holland to trade these prospects for someone good? (If the prospects are not good, who will trade for them).
I think you are being too tough on a team that really couldnt have drafted much better considering their position.

Maybe we need to discuss what other teams (EVERY other teams) superstar, or at least non-4th liner, taken in the 2nd round (Lets deal with only forwards).

According to HF's we are ranked 11th in prospects. This is pretty good considering we have been drafting about 22nd-26th last 5-6 years.

why would the 2nd rd be the starting point, as oppossed to all picks not taken in the top 14(lets define misisng the playoffs as a failure)

lets look at montreal
-subban(2nd rd)
-patches(2nd rd)
-desharnais(signed as a UFA)
-gallagher(not sur ehow late he was)
-eller(traded for)

thats 5 of the 7 members of their core(price and galchenyuk(sp) are the two others) taken or traded for that didnt require a failing to acquire

all 7 of these players are making huge impacts today and not a dream that they will one day

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

My point is that the Red Wings have been great for 25 years because we've had more skill than most teams.

Our GM keeps drafting skill guys -- and we've done well getting small, skilled guys late -- players overlooked because they were small.

But we've got a coach who doesn't promote players into the skill roles. Instead he wants heavy players and he promotes them into our fourth line.

Well -- if the way into the Wings lineup is the 4th line -- skill guys are screwed.

Hard to argue against this logic, skill is just not something that is rewarded by Babcock very often. When he first came and talked about putting more sandpaper/grease into the team it did help, we had the necessary skill in place. We have swung too far in that direction and it has us in our current problems.

 

[detredWINgs]

why would the 2nd rd be the starting point, as oppossed to all picks not taken in the top 14(lets define misisng the playoffs as a failure)

lets look at montreal
-subban(2nd rd)
-patches(2nd rd)
-desharnais(signed as a UFA)
-gallagher(not sur ehow late he was)
-eller(traded for)

thats 5 of the 7 members of their core(price and galchenyuk(sp) are the two others) taken or traded for that didnt require a failing to acquire

all 7 of these players are making huge impacts today and not a dream that they will one day

He was taken in the 5th round. And he's 5'9". And he came into the league at age 20. And he put up a modest 20 points in 36 games in the AHL before getting called up.

And now he's following up his 50 point rookie pace with 5 points in 5 games.

Must be nice having a coach that recognizes you don't need to be 6 feet or taller to merit NHL ice time.

 

[BinCookin]

He was taken in the 5th round. And he's 5'9". And he came into the league at age 20. And he put up a modest 20 points in 36 games in the AHL before getting called up.

And now he's following up his 50 point rookie pace with 5 points in 5 games.

Must be nice having a coach that recognizes you don't need to be 6 feet or taller to merit NHL ice time.

Montreal has been "critisized" for being small.

Many of their fans and detractors make fun of them. Say they need more size.

Overall I think their team has done quite well with small skill guys.
Subban/Patches/Gallagher... Ya that is a great example.

Wish Tatar and Nyquist got their chances like these guys did.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

A homegrown lineup full of grinders is a terrible lineup. Wings have sucked at drafting impact players as of late.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

Montreal has been "critisized" for being small.

Many of their fans and detractors make fun of them. Say they need more size.

Overall I think their team has done quite well with small skill guys.
Subban/Patches/Gallagher... Ya that is a great example.

Wish Tatar and Nyquist got their chances like these guys did.

montreal plays small

their leaders are both not overly big but also not tough/hard to play against

thats been their problem but they're slowely changing that culture and injecting skill

 

[detredWINgs]

A homegrown lineup full of grinders is a terrible lineup. Wings have sucked at drafting impact players as of late.

Query whether the Wings suck at drafting impact players or whether, with the departure of puck-possession veterans like Lidstrom and Rafalski, Babcock's culture hasn't become monolithic.

To illustrate, what if Hudler and Filppula were trying to make the Wings today instead of Nyquist and Tatar? What about Hudler's game, at age 22, made Babcock willing to put him into the lineup full-time (and Filppula as well)? We all know the answer is "nothing." In fact, Hudler is arguably the complete antithesis of what Babcock likes. Even if he is better than Tatar offensively, Tatar is also bigger (albeit slightly), a hell of a skater in comparison to Hudler, and more physical as well.

If Hudler and Filppula were in Tatar and Nyquist's shoes, they wouldn't have fared any better. And yet both Hudler and Filppula are 50 point NHL players today. They aren't Hank and Pavel, but arguably enough to qualify as impact players.

If you ask me, the likes of Tatar and Nyquist (and Smith, to a lesser extent) are caught in no man's land. They were drafted when Holland was still drafting for a puck possession team, but came of age at a time when there was no puck possession game left. Filppula and Hudler made it to the Wings before the puck-possession window closed, and the waves of prospects after Tatar and Nyquist were drafted under a heavier influence from Babcock.

The fact that we've drafted 1 player under 6'0" tall in the past 3 drafts (Alan Quine in 2011, who we didn't sign and yet another team felt was good enough to be re-drafted) and our average draft height in that time is 6'2", IMO, says a lot about the future of any unestablished smaller skilled player in our system.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

Wings are a puck possession team as long as Z and Datsyuk are still effective.

 

[Winger98]

Even so, 14 of the Wings current regulars on the roster are 100% products of Wings drafting. That's 60% on a 23 man roster.

And that number is only expected to increase as I didn't include Nyquist and Mrazek. And there's a half dozen other guys that are guaranteed to get chances to earn spots like Jurco, Frk, Mantha, Ouellet and others.

The Wings live and die on their drafting. A better question is when is the last time a free agent was an impact player for the Wings? I don't think I'm going to like the answer...

Does that 14 include free agents like Dekeyser?

Hoping Weiss becomes that impact UFA guy, depending on how define impact. I think Alfredsson will be a perfectly fine one year guy, but I'm not sure a one year guy should fit as an impact guy. Just a personal preference, but I think it should be a multi-year guy.

On the UFA front, how many "impact" guys have hit the market that fit our needs? Suter and Parise are the obvious ones, but a lot of lower tier guys who might have been of interest were usually dealt and signed just before the deadline or got overpaid by a bit on the market (Fleischmann is the guy who comes to mind for me). Maybe Holland should have got in on the dealing and signing, but I'm not sure how thrilled we would have been with the deals handed to guys like Ehrhoff and Wisniewski.

 

[Johnz96*]

Montreal has been "critisized" for being small.

Many of their fans and detractors make fun of them. Say they need more size.

Overall I think their team has done quite well with small skill guys.
Subban/Patches/Gallagher... Ya that is a great example.

Wish Tatar and Nyquist got their chances like these guys did.

Pacioretty and Subban aren't small.

 

[Filppula]

Given Babcock's love affair with size, does anyone else think it's a little surprising Sheahan hasn't been given more of a look-in? He must be doing something wrong because given what he offers I'm pretty staggered he hasn't been given more of an opportunity.