Do you have faith in this team?

[BonMorrison]

I would love to, I really would.

But I will not have faith in this team until they can prove that they are over their late-season collapses.

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

you would need to define "faith in this team"?

Do I believe we are winning the cup this year? NO.
Do I think this team is improving every year, and there is more help coming? YES!
This team is a middle of the pack team, now, with guys like Kadri, Gardiner, Rielly, Percy, Holland, Nylander either still learning the NHL or not even there yet. Add to that that Bozak, JVR, Kessel, Bernier are not that old and the future is not looking too bad. So yes, I got faith that things are looking up.

Problem is that we are up against the cap and have several players with significant terms so adding quality to this group will not be easy. We will even a difficulties keeping the ones who have done well this season whos contracts expire.
Kadri and Bernier are up for new deals. Nylander as a top prospect will cary a pretty big cap hit for a guy on a ELC. Rielly and Holland will also have to be resigned in the near future. Dont think that will be a problem but a lot of the teams current success is down to the depth they have and several of those depth guys will be gone next season because we can not afford to resign them.

At the same time teams around us are either still better overall then us or starting to get their act together. There are teams like Florida and Islander who have not spent much money in recent years and built up impressive prospect pools and are about to put things together. Not only do they have younger cores then us, but more cap space so that they can add help. This season might be a wright off for Columbus due to all the injuries they have had but they are still a team who should be good enough to consistently make the playoffs.

Leafs have done well the last couple of seasons to find guys who wants another chance and signs a cheap 1 year deal with us. We need to keep finding those guys if we are to stay competitive.

Then there will always be the fear of another epic collapse when our big earners start to plan their fishing- and golfing trips when the season is far from over.

 

[Commander Clueless]

After the collapses and general unpredictability around this team, I find it impossible to have "faith" in them.

However, I don't think it's as doom and gloom as some people say. There is good here - our 5 years of suffering a rebuild after the 4 years of suffering a not rebuild has yielded some good. But there is much to be done before the Leafs can be considered a contender.

Playoffs, though, are a real possibility. If we're honest, so is a top 10 pick....and anywhere in between.


My stance really hasn't changed since the offseason, and that was to predict unpredictability. This season is a big one for Shanahan, and it will likely determine what happens going forward.

 

[zeke]

i have faith that this team can score with the best of them.

i have faith that our goaltending is above average.

i have zero faith that our coach and system can help us improve our defensive performance.

i have faith we can be a decent playoff team as is, but no faith that we can contend with this coach in charge.

 

[AuGsY]

i have faith that this team can score with the best of them.

i have faith that our goaltending is above average.

i have zero faith that our coach and system can help us improve our defensive performance.

i have faith we can be a decent playoff team as is, but no faith that we can contend with this coach in charge.

So essentially if we swapped Carlyle for Babcock we could contend with this group?

We're going to need a little more than a coaching change to turn this group around. I'd start with a real 1C and 1D boot.

 

[zeke]

So essentially if we swapped Carlyle for Babcock we could contend with this group?

We're going to need a little more than a coaching change to turn this group around. I'd start with a real 1C and 1D boot.

no guarantees, but i'd like to see what this team could do with a coach who valued posession systems, and constructed his lineup to avoid possession black holes.

maybe this roster couldn't do it, but we won't know until they try. the ducks didn't look like a contender at all in randy's last few years, and they instantly contended once he was replaced, completely turning their possession numbers around.

what i know is that this team can score with anyone, and has good goaltending. i'd like to see what they could do with a coach with a proven possession track record.

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

So essentially if we swapped Carlyle for Babcock we could contend with this group?

We're going to need a little more than a coaching change to turn this group around. I'd start with a real 1C and 1D boot.

Babcock or any other coach would not demand anything less from our players then Carlyle does. Torontos problems is not a coaching problem. It is the players willingness to listen to the coach and play his system that is the problem.

If anything, a more hard line coach like Babcock would probably alienate him self more towards some of our players. You really think Babcock would accept JVR´s and Kessel´s overall game? We would probably see them both clash with him just as they clashed with Julien and Laviolett when they played for the Bruins and Flyers. But what do cup winning coaches know anyway.

Listen to Phaneuf after we started winning again. The turn around was according to him that they did a better job at keeping the other teams forwards on the out side and that the forwards came back and helped out more then previously, exactly what Carlyle had preached. It is not like if he said these things where not important, it is just that some of the players did not listen or care much about it. And to be honest, neither JVR or Kessel seem to have taken the teams new approach very well and both struggle with their game. Good thing the rest of the team have decided to play the coaches game instead as before, the first lines game.

 

[Kubus]

Problem is that we are up against the cap and have several players with significant terms so adding quality to this group will not be easy. We will even a difficulties keeping the ones who have done well this season whos contracts expire.

To be honest, I'm not too worried about our cap situation. The way I see it we can easily open up some cap space. I honestly think most of our players are movable at this point. We might not get a tone but we can easily open cap space.
Lupul = 5.25 - I really don't see any issue moving him.
Clarkson = 5.25 We might have to either keep some salary, or maybe take some back, but I'm sure we can save 2-4 mil. And to be honest he is on 25 goal pace so team that needs some goals/grit might just take him for cheap.
Reimer = 2.3 - I think we can move him easily, just not for much.
Franson = 3.3 - I think he is gone next year.
Gardiner = 4 - If Franson stays I'm sure we move him. Still a young guy with lots of skill.
Robidas = 3 - I'm not sure if he has a NTC or something, but I have a feeling a few teams would take him.
Phaneuf = 7 - We won't be getting tones for the guy but teams would take him. He has 13 points and is a +11 this year.


The point being that we can move some things around to open up some cap space. A few of those moves would be only to get cap space, but if that's what we need we can do it.

 

[mcleex]

This team has all the tools to be good, but they just don't show up half the time. You never know what you are gonna get. Like what team beats Boston 6-1 .... then loses 6-2 to Buffalo ??

 

[Wafflewhipper]

This is a playoff team and I said that early. The bottom six is so drastically improved over past years is mainly my present and past determination. We should if possible be entertaining moving for a trade of a significant degree.

We all I believe understand where JVR is and has been a cost defensively and should be moved along with Gardiner for some players with good all round approach to the defensive game. I understand the offensive value they bring is hard to reason parting with like everyone else.

It is time to tweek in a big way leaning towards being better defensively. That's the only way we will be capable of prolonging a playoff run this year. Columbus might be intrigued if offered JVR.

I would suggest Boone Jenner in return.

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

To be honest, I'm not too worried about our cap situation. The way I see it we can easily open up some cap space. I honestly think most of our players are movable at this point. We might not get a tone but we can easily open cap space.
Lupul = 5.25 - I really don't see any issue moving him.
Clarkson = 5.25 We might have to either keep some salary, or maybe take some back, but I'm sure we can save 2-4 mil. And to be honest he is on 25 goal pace so team that needs some goals/grit might just take him for cheap.
Reimer = 2.3 - I think we can move him easily, just not for much.
Franson = 3.3 - I think he is gone next year.
Gardiner = 4 - If Franson stays I'm sure we move him. Still a young guy with lots of skill.
Robidas = 3 - I'm not sure if he has a NTC or something, but I have a feeling a few teams would take him.
Phaneuf = 7 - We won't be getting tones for the guy but teams would take him. He has 13 points and is a +11 this year.


The point being that we can move some things around to open up some cap space. A few of those moves would be only to get cap space, but if that's what we need we can do it.

Any one can be moved but do we become a better team by moving out proven players and then play the youngsters instead? We would then have a couple of seasons where they show their growing pains and mix their performances a lot, like is usually the case with young players.

Lets say we move out Reimer and get a pick for him. Who will be the backup to Bernier and how much will he cost to acquire and what will his salary be. Same goes for all the players. Bye bye Lupul, but who will play in his position that can give us 25 goals for less money then he is currently on. If the idea is to progress and become better, any one we ship out needs to be replaced with some one as good or preferably better. The other option is to trade players away and replace them with unproven young guys.

Now that is actually something I would want us to do but I realize it would probably make us worse for a season or two. But rather that then adding around the current core who I have little to no faith in.

 

[AuGsY]

Our D-core is our biggest glaring roster flaw and I really think we are missing a couple top 4 quality D-men.

Phaneuf - #2 on a contender
Franson - #4 on a contender
Polak - #5 on a contender
Reilly - #4/5 on a contender
Gardiner - #6/7 on a contender
Robidas - #5/6 on a contender

Imo we are going to need some sort of upgrade on the back end before we start throwing the word contender around.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

Any one can be moved but do we become a better team by moving out proven players and then play the youngsters instead? We would then have a couple of seasons where they show their growing pains and mix their performances a lot, like is usually the case with young players.

Lets say we move out Reimer and get a pick for him. Who will be the backup to Bernier and how much will he cost to acquire and what will his salary be. Same goes for all the players. Bye bye Lupul, but who will play in his position that can give us 25 goals for less money then he is currently on. If the idea is to progress and become better, any one we ship out needs to be replaced with some one as good or preferably better. The other option is to trade players away and replace them with unproven young guys.

Now that is actually something I would want us to do but I realize it would probably make us worse for a season or two. But rather that then adding around the current core who I have little to no faith in.

I think you can get better in proper areas through trade but preparedness to move quality for quality is a slippery slope general manager's avoid. You would hope our GM is not to conservative at this point.

 

[zeke]

rielly and gardiner were both top four quality last year, and have top pair potential. good teams wait on their kids.

in fact, you could construct a very good argument that the leafs woukd be beter right now if they were giving rielly top minutes.

most all the contenders have unproven youngsters in key spots.

 

[silentbob37*]

To be honest, I'm not too worried about our cap situation. The way I see it we can easily open up some cap space. I honestly think most of our players are movable at this point. We might not get a tone but we can easily open cap space.
Lupul = 5.25 - I really don't see any issue moving him.
Clarkson = 5.25 We might have to either keep some salary, or maybe take some back, but I'm sure we can save 2-4 mil. And to be honest he is on 25 goal pace so team that needs some goals/grit might just take him for cheap.
Reimer = 2.3 - I think we can move him easily, just not for much.
Franson = 3.3 - I think he is gone next year.
Gardiner = 4 - If Franson stays I'm sure we move him. Still a young guy with lots of skill.
Robidas = 3 - I'm not sure if he has a NTC or something, but I have a feeling a few teams would take him.
Phaneuf = 7 - We won't be getting tones for the guy but teams would take him. He has 13 points and is a +11 this year.


The point being that we can move some things around to open up some cap space. A few of those moves would be only to get cap space, but if that's what we need we can do it.

But how are they going to remain competitive after they move out 5-6-7 players?

Then what are you going to do with the extra cap space?

 

[silentbob37*]

rielly and gardiner were both top four quality last year, and have top pair potential. good teams wait on their kids.

in fact, you could construct a very good argument that the leafs woukd be beter right now if they were giving rielly top minutes.

most all the contenders have unproven youngsters in key spots.

Define "key" spots.

The Hawks, for example, have proven players in what I'd call their key spots.

And as I've pointed out before, if this team isn't going to be competitive until Rielly and Nylander and co. are on the team and the best players/core, why are we keeping Kessel and Phaneuf and Lupul around? If this team is not going to be a contender until we have a new/different core we should tear down this core and take a few years to give Rielly and Nylander and Percy a higher quality of teammate in the future.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

Define "key" spots.

The Hawks, for example, have proven players in what I'd call their key spots.

And as I've pointed out before, if this team isn't going to be competitive until Rielly and Nylander and co. are on the team and the best players/core, why are we keeping Kessel and Phaneuf and Lupul around? If this team is not going to be a contender until we have a new/different core we should tear down this core and take a few years to give Rielly and Nylander and Percy a higher quality of teammate in the future.

Kessel Jvr and Gardiner are our three worst defensive players. Kessel has extremely high value. JVR has high quality value and Gardiner has mild value. Moving all three would a turning point that would signal becoming a better defensive team.

Call me ultra risky but I would not blink an eye if we moved all three. It would signal a new era. We might enjoy watching a tougher breed of defensive hockey as a fan base if memory serves me right.

 

[zeke]

Define "key" spots.

The Hawks, for example, have proven players in what I'd call their key spots.

And as I've pointed out before, if this team isn't going to be competitive until Rielly and Nylander and co. are on the team and the best players/core, why are we keeping Kessel and Phaneuf and Lupul around? If this team is not going to be a contender until we have a new/different core we should tear down this core and take a few years to give Rielly and Nylander and Percy a higher quality of teammate in the future.

the hawks are one example, true. no kids in any key spots there.

but they're the only contender you can say that about.

and you don't get rid of good players just because you have other good players. the key is to have more good players, not less.

 

[AuGsY]

Define "key" spots.

The Hawks, for example, have proven players in what I'd call their key spots.

And as I've pointed out before, if this team isn't going to be competitive until Rielly and Nylander and co. are on the team and the best players/core, why are we keeping Kessel and Phaneuf and Lupul around? If this team is not going to be a contender until we have a new/different core we should tear down this core and take a few years to give Rielly and Nylander and Percy a higher quality of teammate in the future.

Because MLSE makes more money being a fringe playoff team rather than being a basement team.

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

Because MLSE makes more money being a fringe playoff team rather than being a basement team.

Making money is not a concern for MLSE. They made plenty of money the last decade when we have been closer to the basement then the playoffs. Some times even in the basement and only once a playoff team.

They would however make a lot more money of the Leafs become a contender, something that is highly unlikely with the current core.

 

[Kubus]

But how are they going to remain competitive after they move out 5-6-7 players?

Then what are you going to do with the extra cap space?

Who said they had to move 5-6-7 players? Why would we? Point was we have guys we can move to open up cap space. We can move one guy or a few to open the space we need. This was not a list of everyone that should be moved, just list of who could be, with attached cap hits.

 

[silentbob37*]

the hawks are one example, true. no kids in any key spots there.

but they're the only contender you can say that about.

and you don't get rid of good players just because you have other good players. the key is to have more good players, not less.

What top teams have unproven players in key positions?

The issue is, how can the Leafs add the good players they need? What team is goign to trade us a real #1 center? What would the Leafs ahve to give up? How could they fit it under the cap if one was a UFA etc...? Then repeat that for another top tier player, and maybe repeat a 3rd time.

Sometimes you have a take a step back (tear down a good but not great core) to take two steps forward (in order to build a core that could be great, if done correctly).

 

[KLM-Line]

Hanging around? Maybe. Not really.

Becoming a serious cup contender in the next years. NOT A CHANCE!

 

[Wafflewhipper]

What top teams have unproven players in key positions?

The issue is, how can the Leafs add the good players they need? What team is goign to trade us a real #1 center? What would the Leafs ahve to give up? How could they fit it under the cap if one was a UFA etc...? Then repeat that for another top tier player, and maybe repeat a 3rd time.

Sometimes you have a take a step back (tear down a good but not great core) to take two steps forward (in order to build a core that could be great, if done correctly).

I suggested earlier in this thread that maybe JVR for Boone Jenner would be a possibility. Quality for quality is what you must give up.

It doesn't need to be demolished. Nonis needs to start earning his pay. He is to stagnant.

 

[Joey Hoser]

"Top teams with unproven players is key roles" is sort of a self-defeating statement. Consistantly playing a big role on a top team basically makes you proven.