Do You Consider Ovechkin Generational?

[MadLuke]

Ovechkin is maybe a rarer than one by generation of players goal scorer.

He also has never scored 92 goals.

This is a bit ridiculous, he never played in a league which team averaged 321 goal a season.

 

[Hockey4Lyfe]

Crosby is currently 6th in points/gp (1.29) - considering he isn't scoring at a 105 point pace anymore, that's going to significantly drop, and he'll safely fall out of the top 10 in per game rankings.

Same goes for assists.

Even top 10 all time, only a handful are included in both and they are the all time greats of the game.

He’s also scoring at exactly that rate this year, so far.

 

[innitfam]

Of course he is.

 

[MadLuke]

Crosby is currently 6th in points/gp (1.29) - considering he isn't scoring at a 105 point pace anymore, that's going to significantly drop, and he'll safely fall out of the top 10 in per game rankings.

Same goes for assists.

Crosby is exactly at a 105 poing pace this season (72 in 56 games), but should be is last one year and start to fall as it goes.

 

[Shaman464]

Ovechkin is maybe a rarer than one by generation of players goal scorer.



This is a bit ridiculous, he never played in a league which team averaged 321 goal a season.

You do realize that Tampa, if they continue their trend, will have 324 goals for this season, right?

 

[Dotter]

Well...its called generational because each generation has its elite players. It could be said that each generation has its best player, but then only one of Gretzky and Lemeiux could be generational.

Makes sense. So I guess Crosby would be the generational talent then. And I predict Mcdavid could be the next gen talent.

But even that makes me feel uncomfortable. The standards should be higher imo.

 

[MadLuke]

You do realize that Tampa, if they continue their trend, will have 324 goals for this season, right?

Yes he played in a league were the very best team could do it and scoring went up againts once he is out of is peak, Tampa Bay offense was the average team when Gretzky scored 92 goal, the Oilers scored 417 of them.

 

[Alan Wake]

Without question Ovie is generational.

 

[txpd]

He also has never scored 92 goals..

That season there were 10 50 goal scorers. There were 3 with at least 60 goals. Including that noted superstar Dennis Maruk. Most of Ov's many 50 goal seasons he was the only one.

 

[MadLuke]

Well...its called generational because each generation has its elite players. It could be said that each generation has its best player, but then only one of Gretzky and Lemeiux could be generational.

It is more a level of talent rare to the level we see it occur about once in a generation, some will have none, some will have 2.

What will change is how long a generation of player is, for some it is 20 year's giving us about place for a 5th one, others about 10 year's, some maybe even 6-7 year's (the length of the peak play)

 

[Shaman464]

Yes he played in a league were the very best team could do it and scoring went up againts once he is out of is peak, Tampa Bay offense was the average team when Gretzky scored 92 goal, the Oilers scored 417 of them.

And of those 417 goals, Gretzky factored into HALF of them. Ovie has only factored into 1/3rd of his teams goals.

 

[MadLuke]

And of those 417 goals, Gretzky factored into HALF of them. Ovie has only factored into 1/3rd of his teams goals.

No one is arguing that peak Gretzky was not a much better player than Ovechkin.

My problem was using the 92 goal bar for someone that peaked between 2007-2011, has if scoring 90 around that time would not have been much much better than 92 in the early 80s.

The numbers of goal in hockey obviously demand context, Joe Malone over 2 goal a game season would make him the best goal scorer ever and that it.....

 

[Shaman464]

That season there were 10 50 goal scorers. There were 3 with at least 60 goals. Including that noted superstar Dennis Maruk. Most of Ov's many 50 goal seasons he was the only one.

As I pointed out in other posts, the amount in his best seasons he out goal scored the next player doesn't compare to how other goal scorers have out scored the next player have. One example would be that Howe in his best season had 53% more goals than the next best player in the league. Ovie's best season for outpacing other players he had less than 40% more goals than the next guy. There are multiple other examples. Ovie is one of the most CONSISTENT goal scorers. He is the BEST ever. Especially when you try to play the 'era adjustment' game.

 

[txpd]

It is more a level of talent rare to the level we see it occur about once in a generation, some will have none, some will have 2.

What will change is how long a generation of player is, for some it is 20 year's giving us about place for a 5th one, others about 10 year's, some maybe even 6-7 year's (the length of the peak play)

Well...I will leave it to you that after Ovechkin breaks the all time goals record that you repeat this not a generational player thing.

 

[MadLuke]

Well...I will leave it to you that after Ovechkin breaks the all time goals record that you repeat this not a generational player thing.

? Not sure I get that answer, did I ever said Ovechkin was not a generational player thing ? Or what ?

 

[Conspiracy Theorist]

If Crosby is, then yes he is. I still say yes.

 

[gtrower]

Hard to judge until they finish their careers IMHO. If Ovi got hurt tomorrow and was done he might lose his claim. If he has another three 50 goal seasons, finishes with 10 rockets, and catches Gretzky then he’s on the Mount Rushmore of hockey. He’s 33 still looks like a beast so I’d say he’s on pace.

 

[pezpunk]

You do realize that Tampa, if they continue their trend, will have 324 goals for this season, right?

lol the #1 most dominant team in a year where scoring happens to be way up just barely reaches the average of a previous era and you're going to pretend they're equal? how is anyone supposed to take you seriously?

 

[Shaman464]

No one is arguing that peak Gretzky was a much better player than Ovechkin.

My problem was using the 92 goal bar for someone that peaked between 2007-2011, has if scoring 90 would not have been better than 92 in the early 80s.

The numbers of goal in hockey obviously demand context, Joe Malone over 2 goal a game season would make him the best goal scorer ever and that it.....

Over the approximately the same number of games (~13 seasons):

Ovie scored ~18.9% of Caps goals and factored into 34% of all caps goals.

Gretzky scored ~17.5% of the goals for the Oilers, and factored into 49% of goals scored in that period.

So, while being the most elite playmaker EVER, Gretzky only trailed Ovie by 1.5% of goals as a function of total team goals. And this was while playing on the highest goal scoring teams ever to play. Wrap your mind around that. He was as fundamental to the goal scoring for the Oilers (and a season of the Kings) as Ovie is for the Caps.

 

[Shaman464]

lol the #1 most dominant team in a year where scoring happens to be way up just barely reaches the average of a previous era and you're going to pretend they're equal? how is anyone supposed to take you seriously?

Look at the post below it where I adjust goal scoring as a function of overall team goals for. Ovie isn't running away with it. And its worse if you look at goal scorers from the 50s.

 

[HTFN]

Over the approximately the same number of games (~13 seasons):

Ovie scored ~18.9% of Caps goals and factored into 34% of all caps goals.

Gretzky scored ~17.5% of the goals for the Oilers, and factored into 49% of goals scored in that period.

So, while being the most elite playmaker EVER, Gretzky only trailed Ovie by 1.5% of goals as a function of total team goals. And this was while playing on the highest goal scoring teams ever to play. Wrap your mind around that. He was as fundamental to the goal scoring for the Oilers (and a season of the Kings) as Ovie is for the Caps.

I don't think you're making your point correctly.

 

[GoJetsGo55]

Absolutely. He's the best goal scorer of our generation.

 

[Shaman464]

I don't think you're making your point correctly.

The point is that even on a team that had the highest powered offense ever, Gretzky was as fundamental to the Oilers goal scoring as Ovie is the the Caps. If we adjust this to a more standard mark, number of goals as a function of aggregated average goals over 13 seasons, they are indistinguishable, or Gretzky actually pulls ahead.

Also, just looking at Howe, Howe scored nearly 20% (19.7) of the Red Wings goals in the 1950s. Does that make him a better goal scorer than Ovie?

 

[MadLuke]

Also, just looking at Howe, Howe scored nearly 20% (19.7) of the Red Wings goals in the 1950s. Does that make him a better goal scorer than Ovie?

Team roster were smaller right with star playing a much larger percentage of the game ?

18 skaters is since 82-83, during the 50s it was between 15 to 17, with team/players that used to play 14 players in the 40s, that is to be taken into factor here.

 

[Shaman464]

So the 10 season between 1979 to 1989 the most average team in the NHL would have scored 3126 goals. In the 10 seasons BEST season of Ovie's career the most average team would score 2342 goals. Ovie's production on the most generic team would account for 21.7% of their goals. Gretzky's over the 80s was 20.5% of goals on the most generic team. Gretzky actually pulls ahead if I do 10 year peaks, or if I do 10 year best vs 10 year best. So, again, to say that Gretzky benefited from his era isn't true, standardizing to percentages of totals they have very similar goal scoring figures, with Ovie only doing better if you only pick his ten best goal scoring years.