Do You Consider Ovechkin Generational?

[Shaman464]

Team roster were smaller right with star playing a much larger percentage of the game ?

18 skaters is since 82-83, during the 50s it was between 15 to 17, with team/players that used to play 14 players in the 40s, that is to be taken into factor here.

It was also a much less offensive game. And, less players and less teams has been thought to mean less watered down rosters. It is much harder to compare a Howe to an Ovie than a Gretzky to an Ovie, but, scoring 50 goals in the 50s was harder than scoring 50 goals now (they also played 12 less games).

 

[HTFN]

So the 10 season between 1979 to 1989 the most average team in the NHL would have scored 3126 goals. In the 10 seasons BEST season of Ovie's career the most average team would score 2342 goals. Ovie's production on the most generic team would account for 21.7% of their goals. Gretzky's over the 80s was 20.5% of goals on the most generic team. Gretzky actually pulls ahead if I do 10 year peaks, or if I do 10 year best vs 10 year best. So, again, to say that Gretzky benefited from his era isn't true, standardizing to percentages of totals they have very similar goal scoring figures, with Ovie only doing better if you only pick his ten best goal scoring years.

Uh... You're era adjusting.

Gretzky's bulk totals 100% benefit from the era he played in. That's the original point you were arguing, that because Ovechkin had yet to score a 90+ goal season he was definitely not the best. Well congrats, you've just finished adjusting for eras yourself and proven that Ovechkin is every bit the goal scorer that Gretzky was, and that bulk totals aren't the only way to determine things like that.

 

[Empoleon8771]

How does a thread with such an obvious answer have 19 pages at this point? Yes, Ovechkin is generational. I don't even know how you can remotely justify that he's not.

 

[MadLuke]

So, again, to say that Gretzky benefited from his era isn't true, standardizing to percentages of totals they have very similar goal scoring figures

It is if people bring 92 goal in a season, it become less true/not true when some work is done to take the difference era correctly into account, the fact that Ovechkin keep up with the Great One about any offensive statistics like that, do show how special he is.

 

[Shaman464]

Uh... You're era adjusting.

Gretzky's bulk totals 100% benefit from the era he played in. That's the original point you were arguing, that because Ovechkin had yet to score a 90+ goal season he was definitely not the best. Well congrats, you've just finished adjusting for eras yourself and proven that Ovechkin is every bit the goal scorer that Gretzky was, and that bulk totals aren't the only way to determine things like that.

The point I was trying to make is that Ovie isn't far and away the best ever. I will never argue he isn't top 3-5, but saying best ever isn't something I agree with because its hard to account for every difference between eras and players.

 

[Shaman464]

It is if people bring 92 goal in a season, it become less true/not true when some work is done to take the difference era correctly into account, the fact that Ovechkin keep up with the Great One about any offensive statistics like that, do show how special he is.

I'm just not sure if you can say he kept up. Gretzky scored as much as Ovie did, but did it at the same time he was also playing as the best playmaker ever. It would be interesting to see what would happen if Gretzky passed less and shot more.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Don’t see how you can be one, arguably THE best goal scorer ever and not be generational. I don’t care about the whole “hes not a generational player, he’s a generational GOAL SCORER.” Such nonesense. He’s a generational player, last time I checked scoring goals is part of being a player and he’s been the best at that this era, among being up there all time.

 

[MadLuke]

I'm just not sure if you can say he kept up. Gretzky scored as much as Ovie did, but did it at the same time he was also playing as the best playmaker ever. It would be interesting to see what would happen if Gretzky passed less and shot more.

I think we are talking over each others, absolutely no one ever suggested Ovechkin is close to the player Gretkzy was, Gretzky is the best playmaker of all time and arguably the best goal scorer of all time.

Ovechkin has an argument to be the best goalscorer of all time (With Bobby Hull, Richard, Gretzky, Lemieux) and yes he kept up with Gretzky goalscoring to the point there is talk of him scoring more goal than Gretzky in is career, despite playing in a much lower scoring environment in average.

Gretzky would have scored a bit more with a different playing style mabe, but Gretzky took the most shot in the league 4 time in is career he was no Joe Thorton.

 

[GreatGonzo]

I'm just not sure if you can say he kept up. Gretzky scored as much as Ovie did, but did it at the same time he was also playing as the best playmaker ever. It would be interesting to see what would happen if Gretzky passed less and shot more.

I think that’s what made Lemieux and Gretzky so much different than Crosby and Ovechkin for example.

Both were their generations best goal scorers AND playmakers. Ovechkin and Crosby are not this generations all around best players, but his goal scoring isn’t generational, and I personally believe Thornton is the best playmaker of this generation, with Crosby being close to him. But If we really look at it, Crosby is one of the best overall offensive talents while Ovechkin is THE best goal scorer. I’m sure that’s why many consider Crosby the best player while Ovechkin is the best scorer....either way no player dominated offensively like Gretzky and Lemieux did all around.

 

[Nsjohnson]

'ta hell kind of thread is this boys?

Ovechkin is Ovechkinal. A special kind of Generational. Possible greatest goal scorer ever. Jesus.

 

[Mackinnonen]

Hells yes he is generational.

 

[KevinRedkey]

He's a generational goal scorer.

And no, that doesn't mean there are generational everything-elses. Marc Stone is not a generational takeaway-er. McDavid isn't a generational skater. Thornton isn't a generational passer. I personally believe player, goalie, and goal scorer are the only 3 categories that one can be "generational". Two of which describe a skater as whole, and the other being THE most important past of the game as we know it.

Note:
I do not consider Ovie a generational player. I don't have Crosby or McDavid in that tier (yet?) either.
I consider Mike Bossy to be a generational goal scorer.

 

[Shaman464]

I think we are talking over each others, absolutely no one ever suggested Ovechkin is close to the player Gretkzy was, Gretzky is the best playmaker of all time and arguably the best goal scorer of all time.

Ovechkin has an argument to be the best goalscorer of all time (With Bobby Hull, Richard, Gretzky, Lemieux) and yes he kept up with Gretzky goalscoring to the point there is talk of him scoring more goal than Gretzky in is career, despite playing in a much lower scoring environment in average.

Gretzky would have scored a bit more with a different playing style mabe, but Gretzky took the most shot in the league 4 time in is career he was no Joe Thorton.

If he has a 50 goal season this year he'll have 7 50 goal seasons. He would need 5 more at a time in his career when almost all players decline. If he ages well, I can see him passing Gordie Howe. But, if he ages into scoring 40+ goals into his early 40s he will be the best goal scorer ever.

 

[HTFN]

I'm just not sure if you can say he kept up. Gretzky scored as much as Ovie did, but did it at the same time he was also playing as the best playmaker ever. It would be interesting to see what would happen if Gretzky passed less and shot more.

Everybody gets unselfish and passes up points/goals they could have had, Ovechkin included, but I'm inclined to say that arguably the greatest hockey IQ ever to play the game mostly took the shots he should take, and passed the pucks he should pass. Making Gretzky a more one-dimensional player might not necessarily help, especially if he becomes at all easier to defend as a result.

Either way, if you need the Greatest of All Time to modify his game to put you in the dust, then what are we even talking about?

 

[6ix]

Easily yes!

 

[BallardEra]

If he has a 50 goal season this year he'll have 7 50 goal seasons. He would need 5 more at a time in his career when almost all players decline. If he ages well, I can see him passing Gordie Howe. But, if he ages into scoring 40+ goals into his early 40s he will be the best goal scorer ever.

He'll have 8.

 

[Shaman464]

He'll have 8.

Shit, forgot his first season. But it stands, he'll need 5 more if he wants to make 895 goals by the time he's in his very late 30s.

 

[puckIuck]

he was generational from 2006-2010

 

[Mbraunm]

Yes, Ovechkin is generational. Not close to Gretzky or Lemieux overall...but he is absolutely generational!

 

[BallardEra]

****, forgot his first season. But it stands, he'll need 5 more if he wants to make 895 goals by the time he's in his very late 30s.

No way he pumps out 5 more 50 goal seasons but I get your point.

 

[Shaman464]

No way he pumps out 5 more 50 goal seasons but I get your point.

I’m not arguing he’s not top ~3 goal scorers ever. I just don’t think there’s a slam dunk case for any of the top 5 being the undisputed #1 best ever. I think you can make a case for Howe, for Gretzky, for Ovie and for a couple others. That said there’s no argument that he’s not the best of the last 15 years by a large margin.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

He is a generational player.

He is the GOAT goal scorer.

Lemieux is the best goal scorer.

 

[HockeySniper]

What are his era adjusted stats anyway? Just curious where is he at

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

Generational goal scorer. Not a generational player.

 

[Bieber fever]

you dont have to be on the same level as Gretzky or Lemieux to be generational.