Do We Have a #1 Goalie? All Purpose Goalie Talk ‎ (Part II)

[spidergoalie]

You know, sometime I think the Reimer's supporters are more about how they feel it was unfair to him that Bernier was brought in, than they are about having the best possible goaltending for the Leafs.

I think Reimer is a great guy, and I was perfectly happy moving forward with him, and was vocally opposed to the deal to bring in Bernier.
I was wrong.

Bernier simply is a better goalie. People can hand pick stats all they want, but I'll say it again...ask virtually any goalie coach or experienced goalie and the vast majority would say it is a no-brainer.
Was this a good year? of course not! but if people are going to toss him out because of that, than forget supporting a rebuild, because no one will have the patients.

Now you might say, but they weren't patient with Reimer. I would disagree, but really that is beside the point. Lets say they weren't fair to him. It doesn't matter now. All that matters now is getting the best goaltending they can get with intelligent asset/financial management.
Is Reimer an upgrade on Bernier? No he is not. At best his supporters can say he is only marginally worse...not a real ringing endorsement.

I will honestly be disappointed is Bernier isn't back, but if they do so to bring in a better goalie, then more power to them.

 

[crump]

This is an important question. You always build from the net out to your centres. If Bernier isn't the one, then that will be job one after the purge and draft. Get your goaltending future figured out. Hopefully the new braintrust sees this season as an anomaly and Bernier is better than this. I think he is. Reimer should be traded for assets. Let one of the Marlies back up Bernier giving him his first season as the clear cut number one. Hopefully the new coach and defense will be a goalies friend.

 

[King Leaf]

You know, sometime I think the Reimer's supporters are more about how they feel it was unfair to him that Bernier was brought in, than they are about having the best possible goaltending for the Leafs.

I think Reimer is a great guy, and I was perfectly happy moving forward with him, and was vocally opposed to the deal to bring in Bernier.
I was wrong.

Bernier simply is a better goalie. People can hand pick stats all they want, but I'll say it again...ask virtually any goalie coach or experienced goalie and the vast majority would say it is a no-brainer.
Was this a good year? of course not! but if people are going to toss him out because of that, than forget supporting a rebuild, because no one will have the patients.

Now you might say, but they weren't patient with Reimer. I would disagree, but really that is beside the point. Lets say they weren't fair to him. It doesn't matter now. All that matters now is getting the best goaltending they can get with intelligent asset/financial management.
Is Reimer an upgrade on Bernier? No he is not. At best his supporters can say he is only marginally worse...not a real ringing endorsement.

I will honestly be disappointed is Bernier isn't back, but if they do so to bring in a better goalie, then more power to them.

That's what I keep trying to tell these guys, they won't listen. Or at least say, I know it's dumb, but I just like Reimer. That's completely fair, I'm like that too with some players, like JvR for instance, I understand he's our most valuable trading chip but I'm still really really hesitant to trade him barring a spectacular return.

And on Reimer getting wronged and blahblah, I think that's a load of crap. Yeah, I get he took us to the playoffs for the first time in years (and that was also the best performing Leafs team we've had in years), and I get that people are loyal to him because of that. But from a management perspective, getting Bernier was a no brainer. Lets go take a look at all the goals from Game 7 in the midst of the collapse. They were all glaring examples of Reimers well known weaknesses. Poor rebound control, and poor positioning, specifically playing too deep. I'm not saying Game 7 was Reimers fault (I personally think most of the blame lies on the coaching, not changing lines appropriately and not telling the team to push the pace instead of turtle). But it's undeniable that those goals were a byproduct of Reimers technical game. So when Dean Lombardi calls and says hey, I've got a high pedigree, potentially elite goalie thats available, what would any sound GM do? I'd most certainly get another young, high upside goalie. Best case scenario, he pushes your existing starter to new heights and they both play great, worst case scenario he turns out to be a better goalie. It absolutely baffles me that people think this was a bad move. If Bernier ever comes close to reaching his potential, we'd have won that trade by an absolute landslide.

 

[edwardslane]

I lost all respect for Bernier after this moment.

To BS in this interview about something he clearly knows nothing about rubbed me the wrong way and i can't like someone i don't respect. I don't know if i'm alone here or not but after that moment i just can't root for the guy. I seriously i hope we trade him as he still has some decent value.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BG2yELLZgB8

 

[New Liskeard]

To BS in this interview about something he clearly knows nothing about rubbed me the wrong way and i can't like someone i don't respect. I don't know if i'm alone here or not but after that moment i just can't root for the guy. I seriously i hope we trade him as he still has some decent value.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BG2yELLZgB8

Guess you haven't been put in the media spotlight before and asked a question you know nothing about. Are you suggesting he purposely tried to insult Mandella.

 

[BlueBaron]

So Bernier was invited to the world championships (declined) and Riemer wasn't...

 

[BlueBaron]

To BS in this interview about something he clearly knows nothing about rubbed me the wrong way and i can't like someone i don't respect. I don't know if i'm alone here or not but after that moment i just can't root for the guy. I seriously i hope we trade him as he still has some decent value.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BG2yELLZgB8

That is an odd reason to trade someone, you're on your own with that one.

 

[Gary Batman]

This is really funny post. You talk about teams developing their goalies then how about this.

Crawford didn't become Chicago's starting goalie until the age of 26. He was developed by Chicago until this year where he started to show promise.

Dubnyk wasn't the Oilers starting goalie until the age of 25. He didn't show promise until this year where Sean Burke reinvented his game. At what age? 28.

Elliot was starter at the age of 24 but was horrible in Ottawa. He got a chance in STL and showed promise at the age of 26.

Rinne didn't become Nashville starter until the age of 26.

Ben Bishop didn't become a starter until the age of 27.

You also left out Rask and Schneider both who became the team's full time starter at the age of 25 and 27 respectively.

Oh and I forget to mention Varlamov who didn't blossom until the age of 25.

Notice that when I mention starter, I mean that played more games than the other goalies.

Price and Lundqvist are the exception because they are both generational goaltenders.

Bernier became the leafs starter at the age of 25 and showed promise at the age of 24.

Just like the example you showed, the team took time to develop their game instead of tossing them aside whenever they have a bad year. There are some exceptions but most teams develop their goalies for more than 4 years whether they were drafted by their own team or not. So I guess Rask, Varlamov, Schneider, and Bishop team are doomed because they didn't draft their own goaltender...

I talked about developing own goalies. We aren't developing Bernier. Don't think that for a second. Most of the development phase was done in first 6-7 years by LA. We are just hoping to put up finishing touches and hope he delivers. 6-7 years in LA system was enough for LA to see that Bernier isn't a diamond in the rough. And given how cheap Leafs got him, I'd say it was evident for 28 other teams as well, or he'd go for much higher price in a bidding war.

I said draft and/or develop, so that rules Rask out. I already mentioned that Rask was never a Maple Leaf, he never considered himself a Maple Leaf. Leafs didn't consider him a Maple Leaf. He spent 0 nano seconds in Leafs development system. Regarding the rest... come back when any wins a cup.

Agree with you about age.. So, I hope Leafs don't spend any further on 2nd rounders on mediocre goaltenders who are backups on other teams, and be actually patient with their own prospects.

Really liked the article that came out last week that quoted Kyle Dubas. He talked only about our goalie prospects and being patient with them, and Dubas didn't mention Bernier (or Reimer) at all

 

[hfdshdh]

To BS in this interview about something he clearly knows nothing about rubbed me the wrong way and i can't like someone i don't respect. I don't know if i'm alone here or not but after that moment i just can't root for the guy. I seriously i hope we trade him as he still has some decent value.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BG2yELLZgB8

As it turns out, a lot of professional athletes aren't that bright. More at 11.

 

[Gary Batman]

To BS in this interview about something he clearly knows nothing about rubbed me the wrong way and i can't like someone i don't respect. I don't know if i'm alone here or not but after that moment i just can't root for the guy. I seriously i hope we trade him as he still has some decent value.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BG2yELLZgB8

I hadn't bothered listening to it thinking maybe it was just a passing remark by Bernier and fans were running away with it; but I was listening to TSN radio yesterday and they played the entire clip... and I said "WTF!"

A few brain cells of mine just died listening to that. The way he kept ************, it will be tough to take him seriously any time he wants to say anything in front of the mic.

 

[BlueBaron]

I talked about developing own goalies. We aren't developing Bernier. Don't think that for a second. Most of the development phase was done in first 6-7 years by LA. We are just hoping to put up finishing touches and hope he delivers. 6-7 years in LA system was enough for LA to see that Bernier isn't a diamond in the rough. And given how cheap Leafs got him, I'd say it was evident for 28 other teams as well, or he'd go for much higher price in a bidding war.

I said draft and/or develop, so that rules Rask out. I already mentioned that Rask was never a Maple Leaf, he never considered himself a Maple Leaf. Leafs didn't consider him a Maple Leaf. He spent 0 nano seconds in Leafs development system. Regarding the rest... come back when any wins a cup.

Agree with you about age.. So, I hope Leafs don't spend any further on 2nd rounders on mediocre goaltenders who are backups on other teams, and be actually patient with their own prospects.

Really liked the article that came out last week that quoted Kyle Dubas. He talked only about our goalie prospects and being patient with them, and didn't mention Bernier at all

Yeah the fact he could not beat Quick out of a job speaks volumes...

Your agenda is pretty obvious but it also seems irrational.

 

[Nithoniniel]

I talked about developing own goalies. We aren't developing Bernier. Don't think that for a second. Most of the development phase was done in first 6-7 years by LA. We are just hoping to put up finishing touches and hope he delivers. 6-7 years in LA system was enough for LA to see that Bernier isn't a diamond in the rough. And given how cheap Leafs got him, I'd say it was evident for 28 other teams as well, or he'd go for much higher price in a bidding war.

I said draft and/or develop, so that rules Rask out. I already mentioned that Rask was never a Maple Leaf, he never considered himself a Maple Leaf. Leafs didn't consider him a Maple Leaf. He spent 0 nano seconds in Leafs development system. Regarding the rest... come back when any wins a cup.

Agree with you about age.. So, I hope Leafs don't spend any further on 2nd rounders on mediocre goaltenders who are backups on other teams, and be actually patient with their own prospects.

Really liked the article that came out last week that quoted Kyle Dubas. He talked only about our goalie prospects and being patient with them, and Dubas didn't mention Bernier (or Reimer) at all

Oh please. Now I get your opinion and I respect it, but you know better than the bolded. They were at a crossroads, and nobody moved Quick. It could have been Lundquist as their #2, and it would have mattered just as little due to Quick's cup run. Every piece of information that got out during that time talked about how highly they thought of Bernier. There were even talk about how he was basically a better goalie than Quick, but the ability of the latter to dominate in the playoffs made him the easy choice.

Also, a second rounder isn't exactly cheap for a goaltender unless you are talking someone like Schneider who were putting up best in the league stats so far in his career. The mediocre goalies, that you like to talk about, goes for less.

And Dubas didn't mention Bernier or Reimer when talking about goalie prospects? How very odd. Could be because they are NHLers and not prospects, perhaps.

 

[Super Mega]

I think if you can get a similar return to what we paid you consider moving Bernier - otherwise wait and see if he can take the next step. Goalies are a different beast requiring much more patience and potential tends to be less clear.

 

[Gary Batman]

Oh please. Now I get your opinion and I respect it, but you know better than the bolded. They were at a crossroads, and nobody moved Quick. It could have been Lundquist as their #2, and it would have mattered just as little due to Quick's cup run. Every piece of information that got out during that time talked about how highly they thought of Bernier. There were even talk about how he was basically a better goalie than Quick, but the ability of the latter to dominate in the playoffs made him the easy choice.

Also, a second rounder isn't exactly cheap for a goaltender unless you are talking someone like Schneider who were putting up best in the league stats so far in his career. The mediocre goalies, that you like to talk about, goes for less.

And Dubas didn't mention Bernier or Reimer when talking about goalie prospects? How very odd. Could be because they are NHLers and not prospects, perhaps.

Or maybe, he says "We have a great goaltender in Bernier, and we like what we see in our prospects too"?

And you said Kings spoke highly of Bernier? Breaking News: A team trying to unload an asset is hyping him up, even to the extent of saying he might be better than their Conn Smythe Winner goalie. More at 11.

Yeah the fact he could not beat Quick out of a job speaks volumes...

Your agenda is pretty obvious but it also seems irrational.

So, an up and coming goalie, who is a can't miss right? The way Leafs fans (and Nonis) regard Bernier, he must've been a rare commodity in NHL! But I didn't see teams lining up in LA to acquire him.

 

[TheCLAM]

I'd wait it out and try to attain the maximum return of Bernier/Reimer. If not, then we will see them back next year in the crease.

I think one or the other will be moved next year in order to get rid of this two headed goalie race.

 

[mcleex]

I really hope I never have to see Reimer again. Just a horrible goalie who's glove hand constantly gets exposed

 

[Nithoniniel]

Or maybe, he says "We have a great goaltender in Bernier, and we like what we see in our prospects too"?

And you said Kings spoke highly of Bernier? Breaking News: A team trying to unload an asset is hyping him up, even to the extent of saying he might be better than their Conn Smythe Winner goalie. More at 11.

So, an up and coming goalie, who is a can't miss right? The way Leafs fans (and Nonis) regard Bernier, he must've been a rare commodity in NHL! But I didn't see teams lining up in LA to acquire him.

So you are basically holding it against Bernier that he wasn't mentioned by Dubas in passing while talking about prospects?

I've been following Kings for many many years. They've always been very high on Bernier. He was their goalie for the future, a guy they had high hopes would become a #1 for them. Then Quick continued to develop, and went on that run and became untouchable.

There were other teams reported to be interested. Nobody said anything about can't miss or anything. For someone who has a good case for his opinion, you have started to reach a lot with your arguments. I have no idea why.

 

[BlueBaron]

Or maybe, he says "We have a great goaltender in Bernier, and we like what we see in our prospects too"?

And you said Kings spoke highly of Bernier? Breaking News: A team trying to unload an asset is hyping him up, even to the extent of saying he might be better than their Conn Smythe Winner goalie. More at 11.



So, an up and coming goalie, who is a can't miss right? The way Leafs fans (and Nonis) regard Bernier, he must've been a rare commodity in NHL! But I didn't see teams lining up in LA to acquire him.

Does their GM inform you of all the trade offers he gets ? Didn't think so. Our offer was most attractive because we gave them two players on retained salary. Really Gary, you are trying to hard. But I am becoming convinced you really are Bill Waters.

 

[TheCLAM]

Or maybe, he says "We have a great goaltender in Bernier, and we like what we see in our prospects too"?



So, an up and coming goalie, who is a can't miss right? The way Leafs fans (and Nonis) regard Bernier, he must've been a rare commodity in NHL! But I didn't see teams lining up in LA to acquire him.

He was highly sought after by teams, especially Edmonton. I still think he's good, it's just hard to put up amazing numbers when you virtually have no defensive support. He still put up a very notable 0.912SVS/2.87GAA on a terrible team..

Buffalo:
Lindback - 0.908SVS/3.11GAA
Enroth - 0.904SVS/3.07GAA

Phoenix:
Smith - 0.904SVS/3.16GAA

Edmonton:
Scrivens - 0.980SVS/3.16GAA

Carolina:
Ward - 0.910SVS/2.40GAA
Khudobin - 0.900SVS/2.72GAA

Dallas
Kari Lehtonen - 0.903SVS/2.94GAA

Worst Goals Against:
1) Edmonton
2) Buffalo
3) Phoenix
4) Toronto
5) Dallas

 

[Faustus]

And you said Kings spoke highly of Bernier? Breaking News: A team trying to unload an asset is hyping him up, even to the extent of saying he might be better than their Conn Smythe Winner goalie. More at 11.

http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/id/27109/trading-bernier-still-bothers-kings-gm


What did Lombardi gain by praising Bernier after the trade?

 

[Gary Batman]

So you are basically holding it against Bernier that he wasn't mentioned by Dubas in passing while talking about prospects?

I've been following Kings for many many years. They've always been very high on Bernier.

There were other teams reported to be interested. Nobody said anything about can't miss or anything.

For someone who has a good case for his opinion, you have started to reach a lot with your arguments. I have no idea why.

Maybe you did follow Kings for years. And they might've said statements indicated that they were high on Bernier. But he was never rated above Quick at any time (at least that is what I can infer from the number of starts Quick and Bernier got). And I am talking pre-2012 playoffs era.

So maybe, they believed in his potential and that is where the "Kings were high on Bernier" notion comes from, because their actual confidence in him in terms of putting him in net was not that high. And don't forget that pre-2012, Quick was just another ordinary/average goaltender, so they thought of him a tad lesser than that. Let us not forget that since the trade, it has been two years now. So, we also need to be careful on for how long we can use the term "He was great potential" before we start looking at only his track record to evaluate him.

I have no problem with Bernier being here for a year or two. In fact, I want him to be here. Mainly because it will give more time for development for our prospects in minor league systems. But if Leafs commit 3+ years in a goaltender in a bid to save $$$ in long term, for a goalie who still hasn't proven much, it would be Brian Burke all over again. One would say he had great season last year; but then, he posted very ordinary numbers when the team needed him the most when offense dried up in January 2015.

Best option is sign him up for 2 more years. By then, it should be clear as to what he is. Low-risk, high reward move.

 

[Gary Batman]

He was highly sought after by teams, especially Edmonton. I still think he's good, it's just hard to put up amazing numbers when you virtually have no defensive support. He still put up a very notable 0.912SVS/2.87GAA on a terrible team..

Buffalo:
Lindback - 0.908SVS/3.11GAA
Enroth - 0.904SVS/3.07GAA

Phoenix:
Smith - 0.904SVS/3.16GAA

Edmonton:
Scrivens - 0.980SVS/3.16GAA

Carolina:
Ward - 0.910SVS/2.40GAA
Khudobin - 0.900SVS/2.72GAA

Dallas
Kari Lehtonen - 0.903SVS/2.94GAA

Worst Goals Against:
1) Edmonton
2) Buffalo
3) Phoenix
4) Toronto
5) Dallas

I would be an idiot if I said that playing in front of Leafs defense didn't make him look bad.

And any time you are in a race and if Edmonton is your only competitor, assume that you are going on a very, very wrong adventure (Clarkson signing should serve as an example). AFAIK, teams may have inquired about him but I didn't see a report that said any other team than Leafs/Oilers were seriously interested in him).

 

[Nithoniniel]

Maybe you did follow Kings for years. And they might've said statements indicated that they were high on Bernier. But he was never rated above Quick at any time (at least that is what I can infer from the number of starts Quick and Bernier got). And I am talking pre-2012 playoffs era.

So maybe, they believed in his potential and that is where the "Kings were high on Bernier" notion comes from, because their actual confidence in him in terms of putting him in net was not that high. And don't forget that pre-2012, Quick was just another ordinary/average goaltender, so they thought of him a tad lesser than that. Let us not forget that since the trade, it has been two years now. So, we also need to be careful on for how long we can use the term "He was great potential" before we start looking at only his track record to evaluate him.

I have no problem with Bernier being here for a year or two. In fact, I want him to be here. Mainly because it will give more time for development for our prospects in minor league systems. But if Leafs commit 3+ years in a goaltender in a bid to save $$$ in long term, for a goalie who still hasn't proven much, it would be Brian Burke all over again. One would say he had great season last year; but then, he posted very ordinary numbers when the team needed him the most when offense dried up in January 2015.

Best option is sign him up for 2 more years. By then, it should be clear as to what he is. Low-risk, high reward move.

And I would agree with that whole-heartily. 2 years would be perfect.

As for Quick and Bernier; you have to remember that Bernier was very young then. They were being patient with him, making sure that he was absolutely ready before letting him take over. Quick on the other hand was liked, but he was a "placeholder with potential for more". Then Quick exploded with his elite season, and then followed it up with his Conn Smythe performance, and Bernier saw his chances with the Kings disappear.

 

[Gary Batman]

http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/id/27109/trading-bernier-still-bothers-kings-gm


What did Lombardi gain by praising Bernier after the trade?

Guess he must've been high on Bernier. This one, I won't deny at all.

Some interesting quotes from the article:

What made it worse for Lombardi is that he doesn’t feel other NHL teams fully realized Bernier’s potential and value.

"You've got something that's valuable that you have to move, but the market doesn’t recognize it," Lombardi said.

"[Toronto GM] Dave Nonis was really the only one who was seriously interested in him. Everyone else was just tire-kicking. I was shocked at the lack of real interest. He had proven himself again last season. The other reason I think people overlook Bernier is because he is small; they overlook his hockey sense, which is his best asset.

If you think that Nonis just outsmarted 28 other teams in the NHL, you are probably wrong.

 

[Daisy Jane]

this is the way I see it. if we can get from Pittsburgh's Pick to Columbus's (our original 2nd) on Bernier. + somehow get Gibson/Anderson from Anaheim. I'm all for that, as well as developing our own goalies at the same time

If we can't and Bernier wants to say for a rebuild (as he stated he did) and he improves, than I'm fine with that too.