Do We Have a #1 Goalie? All Purpose Goalie Talk ‎ (Part II)

[Gary Batman]

Finally!!! Someone in Leafs management talks about our goalie prospects. This article, to me, is a sign that Dubas understands that drafting and developing and own goalies is the way to go if we want to build a cup contender in Toronto.

Sparks and Bibeau both drafted by Leafs. Gibson was drafted by LA, but he'll spend plenty of time in Leafs development system before jumping to Leafs. I can live with that.

Finally!! A voice of reason in Leafs management. No more 2nd rounders spending, on unwanted goalies of other team.

EDIT: Oops.. forgot to put the link. Here it is... http://kylethereporter.com/2015/04/09/toronto-feeling-spoiled-with-goaltender-prospects/

 

[King Leaf]

Finally!!! Someone in Leafs management talks about our goalie prospects. This article, to me, is a sign that Dubas understands that drafting and developing and own goalies is the way to go if we want to build a cup contender in Toronto.

Sparks and Bibeau both drafted by Leafs. Gibson was drafted by LA, but he'll spend plenty of time in Leafs development system before jumping to Leafs. I can live with that.

Finally!! A voice of reason in Leafs management. No more 2nd rounders spending, on unwanted goalies of other team.

EDIT: Oops.. forgot to put the link. Here it is... http://kylethereporter.com/2015/04/09/toronto-feeling-spoiled-with-goaltender-prospects/

This is really great to hear, one of these guys might be the solution in 5 or so years. That being said, and no offense, but your post is a pitch perfect example of confirmation bias. Nowhere in the article, no matter how much you read between the lines does he say anything about drafting and developing goalies being key to winning a Cup, or that a goalie that cost a second to acquire (wonder who you're talking about there) is unwanted. Does that mean that you don't draft goalies? No, look at Montreal and Zach Fucale. Goalie prospects are just like any other, you have to keep the cupboards stocked with good prospects, and if they are the best player available at a certain draft position you take them.

So while I'm glad management is showing confidence in our prospects (as they should) I don't think this is a 'voice of reason' suddenly appearing when I don't think they've been unreasonable in any moves they've made this year. Just my two cents, rounded down to nothing. I'm sure if you could ask Dubas he'd probabaly say the same thing.

 

[Shanty]

Well. That may have bee the worst game Bernier's ever had. My god. 2 giveaways, 1 softie, and let in a slapper in the shooutout. Jesus man, can't catch a break.

 

[Nithoniniel]

Well. That may have bee the worst game Bernier's ever had. My god. 2 giveaways, 1 softie, and let in a slapper in the shooutout. Jesus man, can't catch a break.

I don't agree. The Gardiner goal is not on Bernier. There was not much wrong with the pass, Jake just couldn't control it. Don't remember the softie. The shootout slapper was a beauty. And other than that he made a ton of good saves on the many quality chances they had.

I'm more inclined to call it an average performance than "the worst game ever".

 

[Snow Dog]

Bernier's problem is he thinks he's better than he is and plays too casually.

 

[TMLegend]

Bernier's problem is he thinks he's better than he is and plays too casually.

Yes, becuase Bernier could clearly foresee Gardiner mis-handling his pass to him behind his net. Kadri was also sleeping a little bit on the first goal against too, and wasn't prepared to receive the pass from Bernier.

 

[Paradoc]

Keep Bernier and bring in a good goalie coach like Sean Burke. He has shown glimpses of elite performance. Let see the leafs develop what we have instead of going for the mystery box.

 

[Paradoc]

Well.. look at goaltenders of top teams this season...

Rangers ... Lundqvist and Talbot (including both because Lundqvist was injured for quite a while).. Home grown goalies.
Anaheim... Andersen... Home grown goalie.
Habs ... Carey Price... Home grown goalie.
St. Louis ... Elliott and Allen. Blues record with Elliott in playoffs is well documented. In fact, Blues should serve as an example to other teams, what happens if you are stacked year after year, but rely on goaltending from outside.
Tampa ... Only exception I find in Bishop.
Nashville... Pekka Rinne... Home grown goalie.
Chicago... Corey Crawford... Home grown goalie.
Washington.. Braden Holtby... Home grown goalie.
Minnesota.. Devan Dubnyk... Seem to have struck gold with him, time will tell.

I can keep going on and on...
Stats for top 18 teams in NHL (teams left in playoff contention)
Home grown goalies for top 18 teams ... 13/18.
Home grown goalies for bottom 12 teams... 2/12.

Coincidence? Probably not!

This is really funny post. You talk about teams developing their goalies then how about this.

Crawford didn't become Chicago's starting goalie until the age of 26. He was developed by Chicago until this year where he started to show promise.

Dubnyk wasn't the Oilers starting goalie until the age of 25. He didn't show promise until this year where Sean Burke reinvented his game. At what age? 28.

Elliot was starter at the age of 24 but was horrible in Ottawa. He got a chance in STL and showed promise at the age of 26.

Rinne didn't become Nashville starter until the age of 26.

Ben Bishop didn't become a starter until the age of 27.

You also left out Rask and Schneider both who became the team's full time starter at the age of 25 and 27 respectively.

Oh and I forget to mention Varlamov who didn't blossom until the age of 25.

Notice that when I mention starter, I mean that played more games than the other goalies.

Price and Lundqvist are the exception because they are both generational goaltenders.

Bernier became the leafs starter at the age of 25 and showed promise at the age of 24.

Just like the example you showed, the team took time to develop their game instead of tossing them aside whenever they have a bad year. There are some exceptions but most teams develop their goalies for more than 4 years whether they were drafted by their own team or not. So I guess Rask, Varlamov, Schneider, and Bishop team are doomed because they didn't draft their own goaltender...

 

[Paradoc]

Bernier's problem is he thinks he's better than he is and plays too casually.

Or maybe he plays casually because that's his game style?

 

[34]

Keep Bernier and bring in a good goalie coach like Sean Burke. He has shown glimpses of elite performance. Let see the leafs develop what we have instead of going for the mystery box.

There is nothing elite about Bernier. He is terrible, not even a good back up. Let him walk.

 

[Paradoc]

There is nothing elite about Bernier. He is terrible, not even a good back up. Let him walk.

He was one of the best goalies last season. Are we going to forget that just because he had a bad year?

 

[Nithoniniel]

This is really funny post. You talk about teams developing their goalies then how about this.

Crawford didn't become Chicago's starting goalie until the age of 26. He was developed by Chicago until this year where he started to show promise.

Dubnyk wasn't the Oilers starting goalie until the age of 25. He didn't show promise until this year where Sean Burke reinvented his game. At what age? 28.

Elliot was starter at the age of 24 but was horrible in Ottawa. He got a chance in STL and showed promise at the age of 26.

Rinne didn't become Nashville starter until the age of 26.

Ben Bishop didn't become a starter until the age of 27.

You also left out Rask and Schneider both who became the team's full time starter at the age of 25 and 27 respectively.

Oh and I forget to mention Varlamov who didn't blossom until the age of 25.

Notice that when I mention starter, I mean that played more games than the other goalies.

Price and Lundqvist are the exception because they are both

Bernier became the leafs starter at the age of 25 and showed promise at the age of 24.

Just like the example you showed, the team took time to develop their game instead of tossing them aside whenever they have a bad year. There are some exceptions but most teams develop their goalies for more than 4 years whether they were drafted by their own team or not. So I guess Rask, Varlamov, Schneider, and Bishop team are doomed because they didn't draft their own goaltender...

This shouldn't be ignored.

If teams had shown the same patience that it excibited in this thread, none of the current top goaltenders would be on their current teams except Lundquist.

 

[eddieO]

He was one of the best goalies last season. Are we going to forget that just because he had a bad year?

It's more that this development you speak of seems to be going in the opposite direction. He's been absolutely awful this year. And if we want to talk good seasons in the past, take a look at Reimer's playoff season.

I say trade Bernier for a second if we can get it. Roll with Reimer and develop a prospect. Bernier is a career back up, or a below average starter. He didn't finish his one great season and nobody wants to talk about how bad he was when he came back and it mattered.

Funny Reimer gets destroyed because of his play that season yet for Bernier it's regarded as the one season we should measure him by.

Sorry. The Bernier experiment was an unnecessary waste of time. The guy who orchestrated is gone so maybe there's hope the new regime starts fresh.

 

[Paradoc]

It's more that this development you speak of seems to be going in the opposite direction. He's been absolutely awful this year. And if we want to talk good seasons in the past, take a look at Reimer's playoff season.

Bernier didn't have an awful season. He played well up until 2015. Then everything started to fall when the Leafs couldn't score at all. As a goaltender you lose confidence in your team. Bernier didn't help, and had a mediocre 2015 year. He wasn't awful by all means.

I say trade Bernier for a second if we can get it. Roll with Reimer and develop a prospect. Bernier is a career back up, or a below average starter. He didn't finish his one great season and nobody wants to talk about how bad he was when he came back and it mattered.

That's terrible asset management. I'm not gonna go through this again because I know my argument won't convince you.

Funny Reimer gets destroyed because of his play that season yet for Bernier it's regarded as the one season we should measure him by.

I never mentioned Reimer in my post. I believe he would benefit from having a new goalie coach to improve his weakness. Same would apply to Bernier.

Also, Reimer had two weak years in a row. I don't think anyone is expecting much from him anymore when Bernier gets majority of the starts. The focus is on him now.

Sorry. The Bernier experiment was an unnecessary waste of time. The guy who orchestrated is gone so maybe there's hope the new regime starts fresh.

I'm sorry but if we're going to be a good team we need to preach patience. We won't do that when we trade away a goalie who's had one bad year. Funny, that last year, of all the core members, Bernier and Kessel was the one who carried the team last year into a playoff spot. When he went down, the rest of the team did. It's your opinion if you think he's garbage, but you would be in minority if you think everybody would believe he would garner a second.

 

[colchar]

Bernier didn't have an awful season. He played well up until 2015. Then everything started to fall when the Leafs couldn't score at all. As a goaltender you lose confidence in your team. Bernier didn't help, and had a mediocre 2015 year. He wasn't awful by all means.

Also, Reimer had two weak years in a row. I don't think anyone is expecting much from him anymore

So Bernier's weaknesses aren't on him because the team is bad but Reimer doesn't get the same hall pass?

I'm sorry but if we're going to be a good team we need to preach patience.

Unless they get very lucky and accelerate the rebuild by picking up some good players whose teams had to let them go for cap reasons, the Leafs are going to be in a rebuild for at least 2-3 years. They do not need a good goalie during that time, they just need a serviceable one. The key now is to draft high (which means continuing to suck while rebuilding) and to develop players. As such, if they can get something for Bernier they should do so and then develop a goalie while they are rebuilding. If one of their prospects improves while their other players are developing then they are good to go. If not, then they can worry about getting a goalie from elsewhere when it actually matters - but it definitely doesn't matter for the next couple of years.

 

[eddieO]

So Bernier's weaknesses aren't on him because the team is bad but Reimer doesn't get the same hall pass?






Unless they get very lucky and accelerate the rebuild by picking up some good players whose teams had to let them go for cap reasons, the Leafs are going to be in a rebuild for at least 2-3 years. They do not need a good goalie during that time, they just need a serviceable one. The key now is to draft high (which means continuing to suck while rebuilding) and to develop players. As such, if they can get something for Bernier they should do so and then develop a goalie while they are rebuilding. If one of their prospects improves while their other players are developing then they are good to go. If not, then they can worry about getting a goalie from elsewhere when it actually matters - but it definitely doesn't matter for the next couple of years.

This. With Bernier it's always a "be patient he had one good year". So did Reimer. Then the unnecessary "upgrade" at the goalie position by a now-fired GM and he isn't afforded the same luxury.

Reimer is fine for the rebuild. Get a second round pick if you can for Bernier. That's good asset management because it won't be a better return going forward.

 

[Nithoniniel]

This. With Bernier it's always a "be patient he had one good year". So did Reimer. Then the unnecessary "upgrade" at the goalie position by a now-fired GM and he isn't afforded the same luxury.

Reimer is fine for the rebuild. Get a second round pick if you can for Bernier. That's good asset management because it won't be a better return going forward.

Love it when people use their crystal balls.

And the argument for Bernier is "He's been 50/50 so far, so treat it like a 50/50-situation". You can't use the same argument for Reimer because the situation is not the same. Bernier might have had an outlier season due to the extraordinary circumstances, but with Reimer it's three seasons like that of which two were worse than Berniers.

 

[Paradoc]

So Bernier's weaknesses aren't on him because the team is bad but Reimer doesn't get the same hall pass?

If it makes you feel any better, Reimer had a great September/October month for the past two years.

Bernier had around a .920 sv % just before the end of 2014. He's had a mediocre 2015. I'm not gonna defend that. The whole team was bad. But he wasn't awful this season by any means. The same would apply to Reimer but he wasn't better than Bernier, who in my opinion had an average year. I guess that would mean Reimer had a weak year?

Unless they get very lucky and accelerate the rebuild by picking up some good players whose teams had to let them go for cap reasons, the Leafs are going to be in a rebuild for at least 2-3 years. They do not need a good goalie during that time, they just need a serviceable one. The key now is to draft high (which means continuing to suck while rebuilding) and to develop players. As such, if they can get something for Bernier they should do so and then develop a goalie while they are rebuilding. If one of their prospects improves while their other players are developing then they are good to go. If not, then they can worry about getting a goalie from elsewhere when it actually matters - but it definitely doesn't matter for the next couple of years.

I don't believe in that. It's fine if you think it will be the best for the team, but I think people are underestimating how hard it is to get a great goaltender. Bernier has potential to be top 5 goalie in the league. He played like one last year. People might think I'm a homer, that's fine. Basically my point is that if you want a great goaltender you either have to be VERY lucky to get a Price/Rask talent (which means using a first rounder on them), or we have trade big assets to get them (Schneider (9th OA), Varlamov (1st/2nd)). The other option is getting VERY VERY lucky and get a good one in the later round which is very rare. Either way I would just stick with what I have and hope Bernier develops into a great goaltender.

 

[34]

He was one of the best goalies last season. Are we going to forget that just because he had a bad year?

So did Reimer, He carried this poor excuse for a team on his shoulders to game 7 against Boston! Everyone forgot about that quick...

 

[eddieO]

Love it when people use their crystal balls.

And the argument for Bernier is "He's been 50/50 so far, so treat it like a 50/50-situation". You can't use the same argument for Reimer because the situation is not the same. Bernier might have had an outlier season due to the extraordinary circumstances, but with Reimer it's three seasons like that of which two were worse than Berniers.

It's not much of a crystal ball when he's going to be behind a team during a rebuild. Do you honestly believe he will fetch more than a second round pick after next season?

Reimer wasn't afforded the luxury of starting consistently. Especially after starts where he didn't deserve the next one like Bernier was. Take the best seasons they had, Bernier and Reimer are pretty much identical.

Except for the fact that one has playoff experience and the other doesn't.

 

[eddieO]

So did Reimer, He carried this poor excuse for a team on his shoulders to game 7 against Boston! Everyone forgot about that quick...

They'll point to game 7 which is a game that happened only because Reimer forced it.

 

[eddieO]

If it makes you feel any better, Reimer had a great September/October month for the past two years.

Bernier had around a .920 sv % just before the end of 2014. He's had a mediocre 2015. I'm not gonna defend that. The whole team was bad. But he wasn't awful this season by any means. The same would apply to Reimer but he wasn't better than Bernier, who in my opinion had an average year. I guess that would mean Reimer had a weak year?



I don't believe in that. It's fine if you think it will be the best for the team, but I think people are underestimating how hard it is to get a great goaltender. Bernier has potential to be top 5 goalie in the league. He played like one last year. People might think I'm a homer, that's fine. Basically my point is that if you want a great goaltender you either have to be VERY lucky to get a Price/Rask talent (which means using a first rounder on them), or we have trade big assets to get them (Schneider (9th OA), Varlamov (1st/2nd)). The other option is getting VERY VERY lucky and get a good one in the later round which is very rare. Either way I would just stick with what I have and hope Bernier develops into a great goaltender.

I would take the magic box of draft picks and other possibilities over an undersized goalie who is prone to mental gaffes that only seem to be increasing.

 

[Nithoniniel]

It's not much of a crystal ball when he's going to be behind a team during a rebuild. Do you honestly believe he will fetch more than a second round pick after next season?

Reimer wasn't afforded the luxury of starting consistently. Especially after starts where he didn't deserve the next one like Bernier was. Take the best seasons they had, Bernier and Reimer are pretty much identical.

Except for the fact that one has playoff experience and the other doesn't.

Yes it is a crystal ball, any time you talk about the future as if it is set in stone you are fooling yourself. And yes, I believe the possibility is there. I would point to real life examples such as Miller, and to my faith that GMs and their scouts are able to discern a goaltenders worth and ability even on a bad team, and their ability to strengthen this with stats that controls the team defense factor.

None of what you say about Reimer pertains to my point. Bernier has shown us an elite season and a mediocre one, it's too early to say what kind of goalie he is. Reimer is up at 5 seasons for the club, you can't use the same argument for him.

 

[eddieO]

Yes it is a crystal ball, any time you talk about the future as if it is set in stone you are fooling yourself. And yes, I believe the possibility is there. I would point to real life examples such as Miller, and to my faith that GMs and their scouts are able to discern a goaltenders worth and ability even on a bad team, and their ability to strengthen this with stats that controls the team defense factor.

None of what you say about Reimer pertains to my point. Bernier has shown us an elite season and a mediocre one, it's too early to say what kind of goalie he is. Reimer is up at 5 seasons for the club, you can't use the same argument for him.

Reimer has had an elite season where we went to the playoffs, arguably a better elite season than Bernier's. Then two years where he was moved to back up and infrequent starts. I'm not sure what your point is when you say he is "up at 5 seasons for the club". He's practically the same age as Bernier. You don't know what he would be in the future either.

 

[Nithoniniel]

Reimer has had an elite season where we went to the playoffs, arguably a better elite season than Bernier's. Then two years where he was moved to back up and infrequent starts. I'm not sure what your point is when you say he is "up at 5 seasons for the club". He's practically the same age as Bernier. You don't know what he would be in the future either.

And if you look through my posts, I don't talk about the future like I know it either.

I can see why some would argue that Reimer had a better season. But while their seasons were statistically similar (with a clear edge to Bernier in ESV%), Toronto as a team were better at limiting the quality of shots against in Reimer's season. Don't want to take anything away from James here, his season was borderline elite as well.

As for my point, I thought I had made it clear over the last two posts. Again, you could be argued for patience with Bernier as this season, while mediocre, happened under pretty extreme circumstances. If that's an outlier, we only have his solid record as a backup and his elite season remaining. Reimer has two bad seasons and one that is equivalent of the season Bernier had now, three seasons can't really be an outlier.