Do the Wings trade for a defender?

Zetterberg4Captain

Registered User
Aug 11, 2009
13,851
2,226
Detroit
Your frustration is easy to understand, but I'm not sure how this off-season can be judged as such a failure or a direct contradiction of what was previously said at this point in time.

Now if the season ends with AA and AM having spent most of the season in GR, with no trades for d-men and the team being no better than last year then your criticism and post above would be largely justified. My hope to the contrary may be in vain, but I see no reason to not hold hope at this point

my problem with that is this

many many posters, the most positive ones on this board(and i appreciate them for that) have said year in and year out that the best and really ONLY time to make changes is leading up to the draft(the draft itself) and the week proceeding free agency.

well those two deadlines have come and gone and apart from datsyuk forcing hollands hand, not a single positive step on hollands end of season checklist has been accomplished

we are not younger, bigger or stronger
we have not created room for youngsters to assume more control
we have not added more defined roles for certain players(3rd and 4th liners)
we have done nothing to address the defence

so now we find ourselves in the dog days of summer with an older roster then before, with less cap space and more long term money committed to avg to below average NHL players and less teams looking to make deals then what existed 6 weeks ago. Oh and we have created more obstacles for our youth to take over more responsibility and we have a WORSE 6 man d corps then we did before game 5 against tampa(yup quincey is much better then ouellet)

i dont have faith in holland at all as i think he is solely managing on his past accomplishments with no intention of creating new ones
 

jkutswings

hot piss hockey
Jul 10, 2014
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But your assumption is fundamentally that the approach that differs to your preferred one cannot be successful, when any sort of league-wide analysis or that of DRW over the last 30 years suggests that it really isn't cut and dried. Of course a succession of top 5 picks can create a great franchise core, but we've all seen examples of top 5 picks that haven't panned out. And this is of course ignoring the lottery factor and the annual race to the bottom that the salary cap era has created.

Unless you are bad enough to tank for a while or get lucky with draft availability during the re-build years, a it can be a long road to purgatory.

Sure, if this team is clearly not up to making the playoffs, particularly a couple of years in a row, then I'm more than happy to dispose of what assets without major upsides that you can and make the team all about Larkin, Mantha et al. But apart from the term with Helm, I don't know how there can be that much complaint about FAs this year. Ott either brings some much needed grit or gets buried, Vanek is a fine example of low risk high reward, as well as potentially having value at the deadline if it all goes south. Nielsen made sense as for all Larkin's promise, we have no other top 6 centers on the roster (or really in the system tbh), and plays a game that should age well.

Of course questions should be asked if AA spends too much time in GR unless the big club seriously clicks without him, but if a trade can happen between now and then the space will be there for him. Which is what we all want, a fwd for d trade, regardless of our preferred long term strategy
Rebuilding is a very hit and miss strategy. Banking on mediocre players to win a Cup is a very miss and miss strategy.

Now while all the suggestions you offered would indeed help the roster, what about the last 5-7 years indicates that any of them will be successfully executed? Holland talks a great game every summer, but has failed to land any elite talent via draft, trade, or free agency in a decade, so why do you feel the near future will be any different?

I'd share your sentiments if I saw more evidence, but when the has-beens keep being added to the roster, and the kids rarely amount to first line talent, I don't see how this approach will EVER yield anything better than early playoff cannon fodder.
 

WingedWheel1987

Registered User
Jan 11, 2011
13,341
916
GPP Michigan
Your frustration is easy to understand, but I'm not sure how this off-season can be judged as such a failure or a direct contradiction of what was previously said at this point in time.

Now if the season ends with AA and AM having spent most of the season in GR, with no trades for d-men and the team being no better than last year then your criticism and post above would be largely justified. My hope to the contrary may be in vain, but I see no reason to not hold hope at this point

So your argument is that, "It's not a failure yet because Kenny still has time to morph into a totally different person?"

This off season is a complete failure at every level.

Holland's actions completely contradicted everything he said prior to July 1st. Although that part isn't surprising. He does the same thing every year. Talk is cheap.

I really can't comprehend how people still think Kenny has something up his sleeve.

None of the forwards will be traded for a defenseman.
 

SirloinUB

Registered User
Aug 20, 2010
4,675
2,160
Canada
my problem with that is this

we are not younger, bigger or stronger
we have not created room for youngsters to assume more control
we have not added more defined roles for certain players(3rd and 4th liners)
we have done nothing to address the defence

To be fair, Holland added Ott and Vanek. With Vanek at 6'2 220 lbs and Ott 6' 190 lbs, I think one can argue that we are bigger and stronger.
 

njx9

Registered User
Feb 1, 2016
2,161
340
Of course we are all capable of being unreasonable, and all want the team to succeed (despite some posts I've seen about hoping various things go horribly wrong to teach Holland a lesson, which frankly are unworthy of responding to). I've just seen a lot more aggressive language and overt belittling from some of those with the most veherment anti-status quo stances. Indeed it made me reluctant to post for a long time, and I've definitely left conversation threads due to some of the attitudes on here. And as with all of the internet, those most angry or upset tend to also be those most prone to acting like eejits online.

I hadn't intended my 1 line flippancy to appear like taking someone to task. I can't access the smilies when on my mobile....

It happens, I know I come across regularly like a dick when I don't mean to. I probably made too many assumptions about your intent.

And while I agree that some folks are probably a little more... overboard, in what they think will ultimately help the team, I do try to view it all in the lens of posters ultimately wanting the team to succeed and do well. That said, it is an IBB, and people are going to be a bit over the top, at times. A proverbial timeout corner (in terms of not responding when you don't think it'll be productive) is probably the best way to go in that case. Cheers.
 

Lil Sebastian Cossa

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Jul 6, 2012
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It happens, I know I come across regularly like a dick when I don't mean to. I probably made too many assumptions about your intent.

And while I agree that some folks are probably a little more... overboard, in what they think will ultimately help the team, I do try to view it all in the lens of posters ultimately wanting the team to succeed and do well. That said, it is an IBB, and people are going to be a bit over the top, at times. A proverbial timeout corner (in terms of not responding when you don't think it'll be productive) is probably the best way to go in that case. Cheers.

All good points. There are some that I read that it just blows my mind that someone who is ostensibly a fan of a team would be so vehement in wanting the team to fail. And would want signings to blow up in management's faces to "make them pay for being stupid". I want Frans Nielsen to come here and be awesome. I hope Vanek pots 40. I don't want to be able to say "I told you so, that was a bad idea".
 

Zetterberg4Captain

Registered User
Aug 11, 2009
13,851
2,226
Detroit
To be fair, Holland added Ott and Vanek. With Vanek at 6'2 220 lbs and Ott 6' 190 lbs, I think one can argue that we are bigger and stronger.

while i 100% agree with you that those are their stats, only ott can be described as a physical nhl player but he will be a worse used jordin tootoo for our club

you can be 7 foot 11 but if your a ***** cat, you're not physical

vanek is soft as cheese, is not strong(and i dont give a 1% credence to the "hard on the puck mantra")
 

WingedWheel1987

Registered User
Jan 11, 2011
13,341
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GPP Michigan
while i 100% agree with you that those are their stats, only ott can be described as a physical nhl player but he will be a worse used jordin tootoo for our club

you can be 7 foot 11 but if your a ***** cat, you're not physical

vanek is soft as cheese, is not strong(and i dont give a 1% credence to the "hard on the puck mantra")

Yeah Vanek is a one dimensional PP specialist. Minnesota wasn't interested in having a 6.5 million cap hit for a one trick pony.
 

Frk It

Mo Seider Less Problems
Jul 27, 2010
36,246
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Yeah Vanek is a one dimensional PP specialist. Minnesota wasn't interested in having a 6.5 million cap hit for a one trick pony.

12 out of 18 goals were from even strength. More ES goals than Nyquist and Zetterberg.
 

Frk It

Mo Seider Less Problems
Jul 27, 2010
36,246
14,755
I think that's more a testament to how bad the Wings are at ES.

So then we need the help.

Of all the signings, the Vanek one makes the most sense to me. If I was going to make a list of what our top 6 is missing, Vanek would check most of the boxes.
 

WingedWheel1987

Registered User
Jan 11, 2011
13,341
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So then we need the help.

Of all the signings, the Vanek one makes the most sense to me. If I was going to make a list of what our top 6 is missing, Vanek would check most of the boxes.

He is just another stop gap signing trying to delay the inevitable.

My issue with Vanek is that his signing is another sign that management is completely out of touch with reality.
 

jkutswings

hot piss hockey
Jul 10, 2014
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He is just another stop gap signing trying to delay the inevitable.

My issue with Vanek is that his signing is another sign that management is completely out of touch with reality.
Sports Illustrated ranked the Wings 17th overall and 9th in the East in their offseason power rankings. While I put little stock in offseason rankings, I hope they're right about the streak ending. Forcing the hand of management is the only way I see major changes coming.
 

TCNorthstars

Registered User
Jan 5, 2009
4,291
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Lansing area, MI
Sports Illustrated ranked the Wings 17th overall and 9th in the East in their offseason power rankings. While I put little stock in offseason rankings, I hope they're right about the streak ending. Forcing the hand of management is the only way I see major changes coming.

Except barely missing this year will NOT force the hand of management.
 

Lil Sebastian Cossa

Opinions are share are my own personal opinions.
Jul 6, 2012
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Possibly, but I'd rather watch an entertaining first round matchup than see Detroit as yet another token sacrifice.

If Detroit doesn't make it, I don't care who the matchup is. There is no team that we battle with for that spot that I'm interested in seeing.

Given similar odds, I want the Wings in the playoffs rather than having to watch Boston, Philly, or Ottawa. The good, entertaining matchups are higher up on the board.
 

jkutswings

hot piss hockey
Jul 10, 2014
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If Detroit doesn't make it, I don't care who the matchup is. There is no team that we battle with for that spot that I'm interested in seeing.

Given similar odds, I want the Wings in the playoffs rather than having to watch Boston, Philly, or Ottawa. The good, entertaining matchups are higher up on the board.
In each team's last 3 playoff appearances, they played in the following number of total games:

Boston 41
Philadelphia 24
Ottawa 23
Detroit 17

To each his own, but I'm not sure what metrics you're basing things on to claim that other teams wouldn't be any more competitive.
 
Last edited:

Ezekial

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Ok, the last 3 playoff appearances, encompassing the last 5 seasons for all three teams. The wings have played 36.

I don't give a **** what Philly did in 2011-12 to be perfectly honest with you. Over the last 10 seasons Ottawa has made the second round one time, Detroit has 6.
 

Lil Sebastian Cossa

Opinions are share are my own personal opinions.
Jul 6, 2012
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In each team's last 3 playoff appearances, they played in the following number of total games:

Boston 41
Philadelphia 24
Ottawa 23
Detroit 17

To each his own, but I'm not sure what metrics you're basing things on to claim that other teams wouldn't be any more competitive.

You're misunderstanding me. I don't care if Boston would put up a more competitive series against Washington or Pittsburgh than Detroit would. I simply don't care to see Boston or Philly or Ottawa. I don't like how they play and it doesn't interest me. I'm basing it on my own personal metrics that I don't like any of those teams (maybe I'm ambivalent on Ottawa instead of outright hatred). If I'm worried about watching competitive hockey, I'll watch the West and pay attention to San Jose or St. Louis or Chicago. Or if I need to watch hockey in the East, I'll tune into Washington or New York.

Essentially, if the Wings don't make it, I don't care about the bottom half of the East's bracket. They could have an all-time classic series and I'm not likely to watch a second of it.
 

SirloinUB

Registered User
Aug 20, 2010
4,675
2,160
Canada
Ok, the last 3 playoff appearances, encompassing the last 5 seasons for all three teams. The wings have played 36.

I don't give a **** what Philly did in 2011-12 to be perfectly honest with you. Over the last 10 seasons Ottawa has made the second round one time, Detroit has 6.

Yea.. how does Philly's 11-12 season indicate they are a better playoff team now? How does Bostons' 12-13 indicate they are a better playoff team when they haven't made it for the last two years ?

broken logic
 

lomekian

Registered User
Oct 28, 2013
1,874
891
London
my problem with that is this

many many posters, the most positive ones on this board(and i appreciate them for that) have said year in and year out that the best and really ONLY time to make changes is leading up to the draft(the draft itself) and the week proceeding free agency.

well those two deadlines have come and gone and apart from datsyuk forcing hollands hand, not a single positive step on hollands end of season checklist has been accomplished

we are not younger, bigger or stronger
we have not created room for youngsters to assume more control
we have not added more defined roles for certain players(3rd and 4th liners)
we have done nothing to address the defence

so now we find ourselves in the dog days of summer with an older roster then before, with less cap space and more long term money committed to avg to below average NHL players and less teams looking to make deals then what existed 6 weeks ago. Oh and we have created more obstacles for our youth to take over more responsibility and we have a WORSE 6 man d corps then we did before game 5 against tampa(yup quincey is much better then ouellet)

i dont have faith in holland at all as i think he is solely managing on his past accomplishments with no intention of creating new ones

Well, despite my relative positivity I disagree with the assertion that those people made about timing. Its always year to year and depends on teams involved. Bar shifting Datsyuk's cap hit, I expected no major trades before the draft and approaching FA. With most teams looking to add and with so many middle ranking forwards up for grabs, why would anyone trade a top 4 d for a package that Detroit could put together when they could pick up someone almost as good or perhaps even better in FA just days later? I sure as hell wouldn't. The market has also be held up a lot by RFA signings dragging around the league.

The players the wings wanted most didn't make it to FA. I would criticise them for not trading for anyone's rights tbh, but beyond that they had limited scope. All the big tough guys this year got paid far far too much, which I guess wasn't a surprise. Also once Stammer was gone, they were always going to go after Nielsen. They've been trying to get a #2 center for 3 years and have now lost the number 1 as well. Even the emergence of Larkin can't make up for that.

I'd agree that its disappointing that more room hasn't been made for youngsters, and frankly unless KH can swing a trade to avoid losing more waiver exempt players for nothing, preferable improving the backline, i'd be very disappointed. As I've said before, I'll be disappointed if AA spends any significant time in GR as his style is similarly impactful at NHL level, but of course, if the team finds the right balance without him before any trades happen, its not the end of the world if he centers the top line at AHL level. Mantha for me has improved a fair deal, but equally didn't do enough at NHL level to guarantee himself a slot.

As for more defined roles, that is conjecture which will proved or disproven by Blashill's decisions. I know what my defined roles would be for this roster, but it depends what is decided. I certainly hope one of those things involves Helm on the 3rd line and PK.

Agree about the defence. We don't know what's been tried, I guess? Should they have gone for Demers? I think trades are also being held up by the fact there are still 3-4 very serviceable NHL forwards without contracts. Again, if you can manage the cap correctly, why would you trade Fowler or similar for Nike or Tats when you can probably pick up Hudler on a 1-3 deal at lower salary without giving up assets if you wait.

As for your last sentence...that just defies any logic
 

lomekian

Registered User
Oct 28, 2013
1,874
891
London
Rebuilding is a very hit and miss strategy. Banking on mediocre players to win a Cup is a very miss and miss strategy.

Now while all the suggestions you offered would indeed help the roster, what about the last 5-7 years indicates that any of them will be successfully executed? Holland talks a great game every summer, but has failed to land any elite talent via draft, trade, or free agency in a decade, so why do you feel the near future will be any different?

I'd share your sentiments if I saw more evidence, but when the has-beens keep being added to the roster, and the kids rarely amount to first line talent, I don't see how this approach will EVER yield anything better than early playoff cannon fodder.

We aren't garnering any Elite talent this year that isn't already on the roster. That much is clear. Our biggest problem is at the back end. Sort that and the team is suddenly a contender. And the evidence is that as many emerge in the positions we draft at as earlier. We've not done that well enough over the last decade for sure.

We can improve by trading, although not as much as we like. We have few top level assets, but an excess of numbers. The circumstances increase the necessity of trading more than in recent years. If KH doesn't make a trade this year and the team is still as lost as it was for much of last year, I'll happily join those suggesting he should step aside. The last two years, and the next two will define whether this team is nearer the bottom of its decline or only just started.

As for a full rebuild, we just aren't bad enough yet, even without the FA signings. There would have to be a major firesale because we are still closer to being a playoff team than a top 5 pick team. And I'd rather my team try to do as well as it can every year until it gets to the point where a full rebuild is inevitable. Because the best rebuilds are those that happen very quickly with 2 or 3 top 5 picks in a row or multiple picks in strong drafts before bouncing out of the doldrums. Otherwise you end up like the Oliers or all those teams that were awful for most of the late 90s-mid 2000s. As things stand, the Oilers are likely to win a cup before us, but not by that much, and they have been awful for so long to get to this point, and have still been massively fortunate to get the lottery picks they have.

Pittsburgh was the luck (fix?!) of Crosby and Malkin back to back, and snagging Letang, after years of being awful.

The Blackhawks management has been great, but It was getting the #1 overall in Kane and the good fortune of Keith in the second round that has defined that franchise. But they were a joke for a decade or more.

Similar with the kings, but they were more organic (ie less totally reliant on lengthy tanks, same as the Bruins).

Either way, the point is, the same people who think our GM is incompetent and our ownership misguided seem to think the same people can guide the Wings through a record time re-build.

I can understand the feeling that you have to go on a big rebuild to be successful looking at the centre-pieces of the recent SC winning rosters, but its easy to forget just how long those teams were truly laughably awful for. And how many top 15 picks they had that barely made an impact on those franchises.

A rebuild for new shiny toys seems a great idea if you can convince yourself it can be a 3 year task, but the evidence is that unless you get lucky enough to get top 3 picks a few times on the bounce, it can take well over a decade, and that's even ignoring the annual race to the bottom that the cap era has given us. And not one of those teams that has genuinely successfully undergone a rebuild was as good as the wings were even before their FA signings.

We're just not bad enough to throw it away yet. We may well be in 2-3 years if recent decisions don't pan out. If so, great.
 

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