Do the Habs need an enforcer? Part 3

[izzy75]

What's the problem with a game misconduct for fighting? 3 of them and it's a one game suspension. I fail to see how punching a guy in the head is not as bad the stuff that gets penalized/suspended for.

Bad how? Worse than a body check? Why?

 

[Dr Gonzo]

There is no stat in the world that will take into consideration all the variables that will conclude that fights do or do not cause "x".

I presented you with four articles (there are several more) that in fact prove that goons don't prevent injuries. Be honest, you didn't read them.

But I know how I played when fighters were on my team, versus teams that were soft. I admit it - on softer teams, I was far less liberal in certain areas.

Fair enough. When I played I really didn't give a crap if a goon was sitting on the bench, it didn't prevent anything from what I saw. Then again, that's my own personal experience and perception, which doesn't mean much.

A majority of the players disagree with you as well. But I guess they're Neanderthals because they can't read a spreadsheet.

I never once wrote the word Neanderthal, and those articles are just words. There are a few numbers here and there, but that's just to explain the methodology behind the conclusions. It's pretty important to support conclusions with evidence. You should really try reading them. It's pretty solid evidence that shows goons don't prevent cheap shots, nor do they help you win games.

Anyway - watching the last game, Montreal looked to be in good ol' form from a couple of years ago. I predict a couple of embarrassing beatings and a very average 2014-2015 season.

Are you seriously riled up from a goon jumping our player? So some scrubs jumped our first line. Do we really want to change our roster to adapt to bottom dwelling teams like Ottawa?

That's bad business. I'm really happy Bergevin isn't taking that route this year.

 

[izzy75]

Do we really want to change our roster to adapt to bottom dwelling teams like Ottawa?

Uh - they beat us.

 

[Dr Gonzo]

Uh - they beat us.

Yeah, in preseason.

I'm all for overreacting, that's the nature of a sports fan, but it was a meaningless preseason game. And I fail to see how having a goon on the bench would have prevented Chris Neil from being Chris Neil. He's an idiot that does idiotic things. A guy sitting on a bench 100 ft away wouldn't have changed that.

 

[izzy75]

He's an idiot that does idiotic things. A guy sitting on a bench 100 ft away wouldn't have changed that.

How do you know? Dollars to donuts, Lucic or Chara has a chat with Neil and he settles down. I've seen this time and time again.

Neil an idiot? I'd take that idiot on my team over 1/3 of the cream-puffs that make up our current roster.

 

[loudi94]

Bad how? Worse than a body check? Why?

No...body checks are legal. They are trying to eliminate hits to the head. A punch to the head somehow is exempt from supplementary discipline. Let's say when White jumped Fleischmann, he ended up with a concussion. The league doesn't really look at that. Orr took out Bourque...no problem.

 

[Dr Gonzo]

How do you know? Dollars to donuts, Lucic or Chara has a chat with Neil and he settles down. I've seen this time and time again.

I've watched too many Sens games to believe that. He constantly goes after smaller players, even when Orr is on the ice (see the game he went after Kadri if I recall correctly).

Also, Lucic and Chara are not goons.

Neil an idiot? I'd take that idiot on my team over 1/3 of the cream-puffs that make up our current roster.

Interestingly enough, the majority of Sens fans I speak to are sick of his antics on the ice, and how he costs them games via taking dumb penalties.

 

[izzy75]

No...body checks are legal.

If I want to watch a show about legal vs illegal, I'll watch Judge Judy. I watch hockey to be entertained. Sometimes that's by watching the Habs win, sometimes by watching someone's face get pounded. It's a good.

But as soon the pacisifsits start talking about fighting and brutality, I'd like to remind them that body checking should be eliminated before fighting:
https://www.google.ca/webhp?sourcei...pv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=body checking nhl concussions

 

[izzy75]

I've watched too many Sens games to believe that. He constantly goes after smaller players, even when Orr is on the ice (see the game he went after Kadri if I recall correctly).

Also, Lucic and Chara are not goons.
.

Personally, I hate staged fights. Though I'd love a few nutjobs that'll drop the gloves without an invitation. You touch Price - you eat my fists. You bully a smaller player - say hello to my knuckles.

 

[loudi94]

If I want to watch a show about legal vs illegal, I'll watch Judge Judy. I watch hockey to be entertained. Sometimes that's by watching the Habs win, sometimes by watching someone's face get pounded. It's a good.

But as soon the pacisifsits start talking about fighting and brutality, I'd like to remind them that body checking should be eliminated before fighting:
https://www.google.ca/webhp?sourcei...pv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=body checking nhl concussions

I'm all for breads and circus. As far as I'm concerned they're all trained monkeys prancing around for my personal enjoyment. Would eliminating some of the current practices enhance my team's chance of success? If so, let's do it as it makes me happy. I could care less if there's 10 fights in a game all won by the Habs, if they end up losing the game I'm sad.

 

[respect the D]

the Dr is in left field

 

[Dominator13]

Man, just remembered right now that we traded Budaj to the team that has Anthony Peluso, sucks we couldn't snuck him in the deal.

 

[Mynameismark*]

Man, just remembered right now that we traded Budaj to the team that has Anthony Peluso, sucks we couldn't snuck him in the deal.

Woulda been awesome bro. Instead we traded Budaj away for some plug.

 

[sandysan]

Oh boy.

Honestly, if you cannot bring forth any kind of proof that fighting helps teams wins or prevents injuries, perhaps you should leave the ad hominem's out of your posts.

I'm all for discussing facts, but personal insults are a very big indication that someone has absolutely no valid argument to bring forth, and therefor can't really do much to advance the discussion.

We're not discussing religion, please don't delve into such a random subject, and please try to keep the insults to a minimum.

If you do, however, want to present facts, I'm all for it. I presented you with several good articles that are loaded with facts that support my position. I'm awaiting yours.

The good news out of all of this is that Marc Bergevin seems to have come to the conclusion that Montreal definitely doesn't need a goon, which is encouraging. I have to admit, it's really hard not to like Bergevin, he seemingly makes all the right decisions.

Your missing the point, I dont need to provide proof. This isnt global warming where I DO have skin in the game. This is, in essence a form of entertainment. I can say malkovitch is a great actor and should be more popular than the kardashians. It dont change didly.

if you want to watch, watch. If fighting troubles you either stop watching or try to convince the players of the error of their ways. But what you cant do is say "we, the extreme minority are going to cry wah-wah-wah until you change the game to our liking against the overwhelming number of fans and players"

People who think that sport (as a form of entertainment) is equivalent to science are so horribly deluded i dont know if there is a path back.

As to the notion that the goal is to score more and that fighting does not contribute to wins, i will remind you the nhl is a professional spotsleague. Their job is to entertain and get you to part with disposable income. If their clients overwhelmingly support it, their partners as wellhead(the pa) that we should cater to te extreme minority whi likely approach the rag tag bunch of losers who protested the cunneyworth signing, because they go wah-wah-wah?

Pass

 

[Dr Gonzo]

Your missing the point, I dont need to provide proof. This isnt global warming where I DO have skin in the game. This is, in essence a form of entertainment. I can say malkovitch is a great actor and should be more popular than the kardashians. It dont change didly.

When presenting an opinion on something, it's always best to support it with evidence, like I did.

If not, it's just another opinion, which holds no water when discussing whether or not a team needs a goon.

In this case, as the GM of the Canadiens has properly noted, it's really not necessary.

Goons don't help you win games, nor do they prevent cheap stuff/injuries.

Personally I find wins entertaining. I get that you enjoy fights, and that's fair, but it's only fair to admit you're in it to see two people punch each other, because we've established that it doesn't help the team win.

But what you cant do is say "we, the extreme minority are going to cry wah-wah-wah until you change the game to our liking against the overwhelming number of fans and players"

That's absolutely not what I am saying, and you know it. It's very intellectually dishonest of you to try to establish that as my position.

I don't like goons, or enforcers, because they don't help the team win, and they don't prevent injuries. It's quite simple. Please stop trying to attack a position I never took, it's incredibly silly, and a cheap way to try to discuss things.

 

[Dominator13]

Woulda been awesome bro. Instead we traded Budaj away for some plug.

Tangradi was a beast in Belleville with PK, let's see what he does 1st. We could of just added a better piece that Patrick Holland and include Peluso or Thorburn.

 

[EveryDay]

Kevin Westgarth was also release today.... another HW.

 

[habsfanatics*]

If you want to make the sport completely safe? Sure. But that's a loaded question, and you know it, considering how vague you left the context.

And it has absolutely nothing to do with what we were discussing.

Let me know if you find any facts that support the idea that goons help you win, or prevent the dirty stuff, and we'll talk.

Until then, moving the goalposts won't achieve much in terms of discussing the issue at hand.

Any facts that suggest checking helps you win?

 

[habitue*]

Kevin Westgarth was also release today.... another HW.

The guy is one concussion away from retirement...and he is a terribad hockey player.

 

[Dr Gonzo]

Any facts that suggest checking helps you win?

From what I remember, there's little to no correlation between more body checks and wins.

Generally, when you have the puck you don't hit much. Puck possession teams tend to be the best teams in the NHL, meaning they hit less. I'm not ready to call it causation or anything though, but it's just logical. I'm sure there are a few outliers as well.

I'd have to delve further into this, and to be honest I only vaguely remember reading a few articles on the subject.

 

[habitue*]

Tangradi was a beast in Belleville with PK, let's see what he does 1st. We could of just added a better piece that Patrick Holland and include Peluso or Thorburn.

I would had given them Moen + Dumont to get one of them.

Gabriel Dumont would had been very popular in Winnipeg (if you know your History...)

 

[Dr Gonzo]

Gabriel Dumont would had been very popular in Winnipeg (if you know your History...)

Yeah, but Louis Riel gets all the fame.

 

[Kriss E]

My wife - a family dr - will not allow our kids to play any contact sport. While this totally sucks (I'd love my boys to play hockey), she turns to facts, like this:
http://sports.nationalpost.com/2012/12/03/nhl-should-eliminate-bodychecking-concussion-expert/

So Dr Gonzo - based on these facts, should we gonzo body checking or not? Why?

What does this have anything to do with whether or not a goon actually helps your team? Jesus you're fishing.

How do you know? Dollars to donuts, Lucic or Chara has a chat with Neil and he settles down. I've seen this time and time again.

Neil an idiot? I'd take that idiot on my team over 1/3 of the cream-puffs that make up our current roster.

Because Neil has acted this way regularly throughout his career and playing vs goons never stopped him. If he has a change to facewash your star players and get a few punches in, he'll always do it. Did you just start watching hockey? Do you know who Chris Neil is?

Whoo... let's use Google to support our bias. So much fun:

http://www.denverpost.com/avalanche...ighting-is-necessary-part-professional-hockey

http://www.infoplease.com/spot/hockeyfighting1.html

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/nhl/nhl-safer-with-fighting-players-say-1.2416907

So essentially, it's the players/management vs the actuaries.

As someone who's played the game, you know where my vote is cast.

Did you even read your links?
1- They actually say fighting is diminishing
2- They use a quote from Selanne back in 98.
3- It's only based on opinions.

You want to ignore facts, that's fine. Just don't argue then.

I have no idea why you even decided to argue about this seeing how you admitted in the first thread that you support fighting just because you find it entertaining and revenge purposes. It has nothing to do with actually believing it changes something. You just like seeing a guy wearing the Habs jersey beat up opponents. That's actually a more respectable position than the ''ignore facts - call everyone pacifists-softs-anti fighting - fights help you win'' one.

You know what, im conflicted. When I saw prust go with the career ahler in a back to back game that previously faught our best defenseman, between covering my eyes and letting out girlish squeals, i couldnt help thinking, man why couldnt that be pk again?

why does prust have to be so froggy, he should focus on his fourth lie energy duties and let our guys, who can handle themselves, do just that.

my big concern is that I dont think we are soft enough, we should sit prusty or nust have him fight for himself and himself only. Mabey we can sew his gloves onto his sleeves.

but your right it was only once, im sure it was a complete anomaly and that all the other teams , fearful of a stern talking to by the refs, will be uber mindful of their ps and qs and will leave our talent guys alone. And if they dont, our talent guys will surely stand up for themselves.

because it takes some sort of intestinal fortitude to let a real light heavy take glovless jabs at our best forward and then skate away. If there was one potential criticism, i wasnt too fond of the lack of enthusiasm with which we threw up our hands, thats a skill mt better drill into them.

We dont need more jam we need more super creamy soft peanut butter players. Guys who will take punches to draw penalties across the board.

Is this the first hockey game you watched?? You seem to believe that stars are not constantly targeted. They are. Enforcer or not, it changes nothing.
They do not deter anything. They don't help you win.

This wasn't the first time PK or Max got into scrums or fights, and it won't be the last. So maybe you should just not watch the habs play this year.

Oh so you're the .000000001 of fans who remained seated at the Bell Center when a fight breaks out. I've always wanted to meet one of you.

Must be my lucky day!

You got excited watching Prust and Boro go at it?? I barely consider that a fight. It's such useless crap.

Anyway, for the non-fighting crowd, I'd be a lot more concerned with our ho-hum of a team. Anyone who looks at this roster and thinks: "Do you think this will be the year?" should consider following another sport.

Pierre Lebrun seems to think so. He predicted the Habs would make it all the way to the Cup finals and play vs the Hawks. So I guess he should follow another sport.
What's ironic here is that you are arguing about would make the team worse.

Do you guys rehearse this stuff? I mean, do you have a "NHL fighting doesn't do anything Meetup" or something?

Do you think if you repeat this enough you're going to convince the other side i.e. fighting serves a purpose, that you're correct? Because by my estimation, that argument hasn't convinced NHL management, the majority of the players or me.

Well that depends on how dishonest the other side wants to be. When they purposely ignore stats then no, I don't think they're going to change their minds. But that's just them being unreasonable and stubborn, refusing to accept reality.
If you guys had proof that a goon actually helped teams, then I'd fully support them.

 

[Hoople]

god forbid a what, 6'2 / 220 forward has to throw a punch once in a while! the drama!

I really love this post.

On all of the DD threads, you are bashing him for having Pacioretty on his wing since its not fair that Eller or Galchenyuk cant have him.

I also remember you saying that the Habs cannot win a Stanley Cup with a Center who only scores 52 points.

I remember all those posts very well.

Now, you are advocating our leading goal scorer, who happens to be a 6' 2", 220 pound forward, to fight his own fights.

Can we win a Stanley Cup with our leading goal scorer wearing a cast? Especially after reading all of your concerns regarding DD and the inability of the Habs to win a Cup with DD.

You have exposed yourself as a troll, my friend.

 

[habsfanatics*]

No...body checks are legal. They are trying to eliminate hits to the head. A punch to the head somehow is exempt from supplementary discipline. Let's say when White jumped Fleischmann, he ended up with a concussion. The league doesn't really look at that. Orr took out Bourque...no problem.

More concussions come from clean hits and incidental contact than any other reason. Fighting is part of the fabric of hockey. It's a part of the game, it will continue to be part of the game, and for the better imo.

Those that whine about player safety don't truly care about player safety, they care about using it as a crutch to see the game change in a way they would like.