Do the Habs need an enforcer? Part 3

[hototogisu]

Continued from: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1719663

Changed the thread title up since it does indeed look like the Habs are going into the season "goonless".

Click to read more...

 

[SquiddFX]

An enforcer no. A scrappy player who can play and fight, yes. But this thread will turn into a ********** about intangibles and the uselessness of pure enforcers. The horse has been beat so badly it doesn't even look like a horse...

 

[Le Tricolore]

An enforcer no. A scrappy player who can play and fight, yes. But this thread will turn into a ********** about intangibles and the uselessness of pure enforcers. The horse has been beat so badly it doesn't even look like a horse...

Aren't Prust, Moen, Tinordi and possibly others already a scrappy player who can fight?

 

[SquiddFX]

Aren't Prust, Moen, Tinordi and possibly others already a scrappy player who can fight?

Prust has shoulder problems, Moen is done, and Tinordi is a rookie. I wish we kept White, though Malhotra is a huge upgrade. Weise isn't a very good fighter either.

 

[Sterling Archer]

Not if they guy can't play and keep up and not when we have a team that actually has depth like we have now.

There's no place for a knuckle dragger on a team that wants to contend.

 

[Cole Caulifield]

An enforcer no. A scrappy player who can play and fight, yes. But this thread will turn into a ********** about intangibles and the uselessness of pure enforcers. The horse has been beat so badly it doesn't even look like a horse...

We have one in Prust.

Another one potentially in Tinordi. And maybe.. Moen. Although I'd rather not see him fight anymore. Well.. I'd rather not see him anymore at all but whatever.

Prust has shoulder problems, Moen is done, and Tinordi is a rookie. I wish we kept White, though Malhotra is a huge upgrade. Weise isn't a very good fighter either.

Prust is supposedly perfectly healthy. He's paid handsomely to be able to fill those shoes. He 100% fits the bill.

Moen, I agree. What a waste of space.

Tinordi is not your average rookie with baby fat. He's getting older, he's been around, he's already fought quite a bit at the NHL level. He also fits this description.

Not sure what you expect if you think that's not enough.

Not if they guy can't play and keep up and not when we have a team that actually has depth like we have now.

There's no place for a knuckle dragger on a team that wants to contend.

100% agree.

Anyway, Tinordi + Prust. That will have to do. Especially when you look at other teams getting rid of their useless enforcers.

 

[sandysan]

I am tired of this thread. Those convinced we dont need a guy who can throw would you be opposed to at least signing a real heavy to a cheap 2 way deal so that we don't dress a heavy 50% of the time but 10% of the time when the situation calls for it ( i.e game 1 against Boston or the back end of a particularly testy series)? You won't have to worry about g/60 min or corsi, but perhaps having at least one guy in the pipeline we can insert in response to things going south?

Would you object to at least having an option of last resort that was exclusively reactive so you don't have to get your jimmies rustled at the thought of a deterrant?

We were 5th last year in fights, if fights go down league wide where do you think we fall? 5th, 10th.

If we stay top 1/3 league wide that's a lot of pressure on prust.

 

[MSLs absurd thighs]

I'm not being pessimist, since you can easily address the situation in the regular season if the need is there, but we could definitely use someone to calm down the games that might get a little too crazy. I mean. If Lucic runs everywhere at the home opener, who will stop him?

Whether you admit it or not, and while an enforcer doesn't completely eliminate the risk of injuries or cheapshots, it keeps some players way more "honest".

 

[sandysan]

We have one in Prust.

Another one potentially in Tinordi. And maybe.. Moen. Although I'd rather not see him fight anymore. Well.. I'd rather not see him anymore at all but whatever.




Prust is supposedly perfectly healthy. He's paid handsomely to be able to fill those shoes. He 100% fits the bill.

Moen, I agree. What a waste of space.

Tinordi is not your average rookie with baby fat. He's getting older, he's been around, he's already fought quite a bit at the NHL level. He also fits this description.

Not sure what you expect if you think that's not enough.



100% agree.

Anyway, Tinordi + Prust. That will have to do. Especially when you look at other teams getting rid of their useless enforcers.

Tinordi's toughest nhl opponent is likely Tim gleason.

He has problems keeping up last year, you want to add sherif to his duties?

He might get there one day. But he might not if you force him to sink or swim against guys tougher than tim gleason.

And in case anyone missed it, this is a pro fight guy saying that Tinordi should not because of the potential consequences to his development. But if he and prust are the only arrows in the quiver, I guess we just toll the dice and hope he doesn't get komisawrecked.

 

[Corncob]

I am tired of this thread. Those convinced we dont need a guy who can throw would you be opposed to at least signing a real heavy to a cheap 2 way deal so that we don't dress a heavy 50% of the time but 10% of the time when the situation calls for it

Wouldn't really care tbh. It's not my money. They'll play the same amount of games Mike Blunden played last season and I don't remember that.

Not sure why they would be needed against Boston as they look unlikely to carry anyone for your AHL/occasional call up goon to fight.

If we stay top 1/3 league wide that's a lot of pressure on prust.

I've asked plenty of times and no-one has been able to demonstrate from Prust's career that either the amount of fights he engages in or the level of opposition he takes on changes at all when there has been a heavyweight on the roster with him compared to when there hasn't been. Because it doesn't make any difference.

 

[LastWordArmy]

Lots of talk about Plekanec's defensive play and whether that makes him soft or not?

We all acknowledge he's good defensively, and can play shut down defence in both the regular season and the playoffs.

So why do we care if he does that by grinding on the boards and hitting everything that moves, or if he does it the way he does, with excellent positioning, good stickwork, anticipation, hockey sense, and excellent skating ability?

Really who cares how he gets the job done.

I only ask one question.... Does he get the job done? The answer is yes.

"Forget about style... Worry about Results" - Bobby Orr.

 

[firewagon77*]

Plekanec is not good defensively he even admitted himself he plays like a girl,Plekanec does not win draws,like Carbonneau,does not block shots like Carbonneau,he is mediocre defensively and over rated......and no Montreal does not need an enforcer,they need a Corson type of player who can play and enforce,in Montreal's division....Buffalo lost John Scott....Boston lost Shawn Thornton......Ottawa lost Matt Kassian....Detroit has nobody.....Tampa has no true enforcer.....and McClaren and Orr will both probably not make the leafs.

 

[Kriss E]

I am tired of this thread. Those convinced we dont need a guy who can throw would you be opposed to at least signing a real heavy to a cheap 2 way deal so that we don't dress a heavy 50% of the time but 10% of the time when the situation calls for it ( i.e game 1 against Boston or the back end of a particularly testy series)? You won't have to worry about g/60 min or corsi, but perhaps having at least one guy in the pipeline we can insert in response to things going south?

Would you object to at least having an option of last resort that was exclusively reactive so you don't have to get your jimmies rustled at the thought of a deterrant?

We were 5th last year in fights, if fights go down league wide where do you think we fall? 5th, 10th.

If we stay top 1/3 league wide that's a lot of pressure on prust.

Going into Boston with a player that will see the ice for 5min is not going to change anything. If it makes you feel more comfortable, than maybe it's you who's the softy. I have full confidence that our boys can beat them where it matters most, on the scoreboard.

 

[sandysan]

Going into Boston with a player that will see the ice for 5min is not going to change anything. If it makes you feel more comfortable, than maybe it's you who's the softy. I have full confidence that our boys can beat them where it matters most, on the scoreboard.

so hypothetically, if Lucic fulfills his prophecy and goes after the outmatched Weise who will almost certainly end up on the losing end, we get to say " that came out of the blue, no way to expect that, and sorry that you got handed your hat but them's the breaks, hopefully you heal quick"?

Mabey it was the heat of the moment, mabey it was for show but an opponent, who previously has demonstrated no reticence in seeking retribution threatened at least two of our players. We have no one in the lineup who can hang with him.

So lucic forces the issue with weise, we send in prust as essentially a sacrificial lamb to also lose and follow it up with tinordi and hope for the best ?

Who does that help exactly ? If lucic wants to fight weise ( who is at least two classes below him) he cant turn anyone down, but we dont have anyone to go a calling. but then again mabey weise and pap can be the new hamrlik and tommy pyatts. wont that be fun ?

 

[MSLs absurd thighs]

so hypothetically, if Lucic fulfills his prophecy and goes after the outmatched Weise who will almost certainly end up on the losing end, we get to say " that came out of the blue, no way to expect that, and sorry that you got handed your hat but them's the breaks, hopefully you heal quick"?

Mabey it was the heat of the moment, mabey it was for show but an opponent, who previously has demonstrated no reticence in seeking retribution threatened at least two of our players. We have no one in the lineup who can hang with him.

So lucic forces the issue with weise, we send in prust as essentially a sacrificial lamb to also lose and follow it up with tinordi and hope for the best ?

Who does that help exactly ? If lucic wants to fight weise ( who is at least two classes below him) he cant turn anyone down, but we dont have anyone to go a calling. but then again mabey weise and pap can be the new hamrlik and tommy pyatts. wont that be fun ?

Then after, all the Mother Thereza's on this board will go MIA, or say "well, I have a life and something else to worry about".

The things that happened between 2009 and 2011 with the Bruins has split up the fanbase in two groups;

- Those who want to wait for the NHL to change overnight.
- Those who want to play according to the current rules in the current system, and avoid being dummied/humilated again.

A 14th forward with fighting abilities never hurt any team. Parros didn't cost the Canadiens any point last season. Murray neither, I can guarantee. And we had to easiest year we had in a while.

 

[Corncob]

The only way your 8 game a season goon prevents Lucic going after Weise if he wants to is if Weise is the player scratched to allow him the goon to sit on the bench for 56 minutes.

This is essentially the problem with your theory.

 

[sandysan]

Lots of talk about Plekanec's defensive play and whether that makes him soft or not?

We all acknowledge he's good defensively, and can play shut down defence in both the regular season and the playoffs.

So why do we care if he does that by grinding on the boards and hitting everything that moves, or if he does it the way he does, with excellent positioning, good stickwork, anticipation, hockey sense, and excellent skating ability?

Really who cares how he gets the job done.

I only ask one question.... Does he get the job done? The answer is yes.

"Forget about style... Worry about Results" - Bobby Orr.

because when you play a puck posession team with size, you get out manned, out muscled and trapped in your own end ( like the kings game last year) on continual cycles.

A team that doesnt win board battles has a hard road ahead of them. I'm not even sure our team engages in board battles. and out top 9 almost never punishes defensemen, puck goes into the corner and the D can go and get it pretty much with impunity, and more than likely come out with the puck. all the time in the world to move the puck up ice.

 

[Kriss E]

so hypothetically, if Lucic fulfills his prophecy and goes after the outmatched Weise who will almost certainly end up on the losing end, we get to say " that came out of the blue, no way to expect that, and sorry that you got handed your hat but them's the breaks, hopefully you heal quick"?

Mabey it was the heat of the moment, mabey it was for show but an opponent, who previously has demonstrated no reticence in seeking retribution threatened at least two of our players. We have no one in the lineup who can hang with him.

So lucic forces the issue with weise, we send in prust as essentially a sacrificial lamb to also lose and follow it up with tinordi and hope for the best ?

Who does that help exactly ? If lucic wants to fight weise ( who is at least two classes below him) he cant turn anyone down, but we dont have anyone to go a calling. but then again mabey weise and pap can be the new hamrlik and tommy pyatts. wont that be fun ?

I think the biggest difference between you and I is that I'm not scared of the Bruins and I don't think our guys are. We can beat them on the scoreboard, even when it matters most in the POs and we're underdogs, we still beat them.

So no, I'm not scared of Lucic telling Weise, the same guy who was talking trash to Lucic all POs and clearly got in his head, that he's going to kill him.

It's freaking hockey man.

 

[Corncob]

I think the biggest difference between you and I is that I'm not scared of the Bruins and I don't think our guys are.

Dude, we're supposed to be the hand-wringing peace-loving Mother Theresa's, you're totally ruining the image...

 

[sandysan]

The only way your 8 game a season goon prevents Lucic going after Weise if he wants to is if Weise is the player scratched to allow him the goon to sit on the bench for 56 minutes.

This is essentially the problem with your theory.

Why ? were not putting the guy on the first like to protect galchenyuk. he will play the fourth. If lucic gets all handsy with weise, weise can skate away, and instead of waiting for lucic the push the issue, our guy could line up across from lucic and press the issue himself.

Or if they are on the ice at the same time ( like parros/subban) everyone is satisfied. Or if we have another lucic/miller incident where someone runs price, the next time we play we dont have to show our degree of offense by sending guys out to be punching bags or by looking to the refs and throwing up our hands.

The habs were 5th in fights last year, the habs will have fights this year. How many remains to be seen, but if we are getting tougher ( as some claim) it seems reasonable that we could stay in the top third. The problem is, we lost the one true heavy ( stashy) and another guy who could go when mad ( murray). so who takes up the slack ? Tinordi ? Or do we tell prust, we know you are a good middle but you have to take on all comers because you are the only one that can. If you go against a heavy, you will probably lose but try not to get killed out there, m'kay ?

If we drop fights by a a quarter this year that's still about thirty fights for the team. You want the 2008-2009 prust who dropped them 25 times ? so do I but I dont have a time machine. He dropped them about a dozen times last year which means you have to account for another 18 fights. 18 fights spread over a team with perhaps one and a half guys who can fight is still a lot.

 

[Corncob]

Or do we tell prust, we know you are a good middle but you have to take on all comers because you are the only one that can. If you go against a heavy, you will probably lose but try not to get killed out there, m'kay ?

If we drop fights by a a quarter this year that's still about thirty fights for the team. You want the 2008-2009 prust who dropped them 25 times ? so do I but I dont have a time machine. He dropped them about a dozen times last year which means you have to account for another 18 fights. 18 fights spread over a team with perhaps one and a half guys who can fight is still a lot.

Already addressed this and you didn't come back with an answer. You don't tell Prust anything. He knows what his job is. He knows how he earns 2.5 million a year. He'll fight however many times he fights and it won't make a shred of difference if you have a goon playing 8 games. He'll fight heavyweights occasionally like he has all the way through his career, whether you have an 8 game goon or not. It doesn't make any difference.

Prust fought Lucic when Rupp was his linemate. He fought Lucic when Boogard was on the same roster as him. If you get a goon to play 8 games, there's still more chance of Prust fighting Lucic than your goon doing so.

 

[izzy75]

I have full confidence that our boys can beat them where it matters most, on the scoreboard.

This current roster is so ho-hum it's maddening. But if Price is god-like, and we play over our heads (again), anything is possible.

Me? I'd rather go into Boston with some ammo - in case we play over/under our heads, and they decide to goon it up. Because, there's nothing quite like bitter nostalgia to see my Habs embarrassed on the ice. Ah, the memories.

 

[izzy75]

He fought Lucic when Boogard was on the same roster as him. If you get a goon to play 8 games, there's still more chance of Prust fighting Lucic than your goon doing so.

Hold on... so we can bench PK or any other player because they're doing too little or too much of this or that, but we can't bench Prust for being an imbecile? Prust is a liability when his shoulder and ribs are popping out of their sockets.

I've had shoulder/rotator-cuff issues, and saying that Prust is 100% is pure PR spin. The players know it - particularly the guys who will ask Prust to "dance".

 

[Corncob]

This current roster is so ho-hum it's maddening. But if Price is god-like, and we play over our heads (again), anything is possible.

If a team is consistently playing 'over their heads' doesn't that represent their actual level?

 

[Kriss E]

This current roster is so ho-hum it's maddening. But if Price is god-like, and we play over our heads (again), anything is possible.

Me? I'd rather go into Boston with some ammo - in case we play over/under our heads, and they decide to goon it up. Because, there's nothing quite like bitter nostalgia to see my Habs embarrassed on the ice. Ah, the memories.

We don't need Price to play god-like to beat the Bruins.
Unless you think pretty much everybody on our team is going to stagnate or regress again..