Discussion on Fallout of Chayka's Win-Now Trades

[TheLegend]

No. We weren't a Hall away from being a contender so dumb trade and we weren't anywhere near being near a team where you trade a top 10 pick for a Stepan. Both dumb trades for this team. Those are trades contenders make. This team hasn't sniffed average, let alone contender. Shouldn't have made the Duclair, Strome or Domi trades either. At least we have a guy at the helm now who has a real iron clad resume. If he screws this thing up, it won't be because he had bad training. The guy couldn't have had a better road map to the get to the job he has now. He's doing it the right way no matter how much pain it's putting us fans through. Hopefully it's worth it.

Nobody is saying it Hall was a difference maker. But seriously...

- Duclair went through 5 teams and 6 head coaches before he caught on.
- Strome still hasn't played up to being a 3OA.
- Domi STILL isn't a world beater either.

All three have played on much better teams. And you think getting rid of them was a mistake??

 

[RemoAZ]

Yep. It's the state this team was in. We should have been focusing on developing young players, particularly offensive ones, not dumping them because we suck at it.

 

[TheLegend]

Well then it has to be obvious the league is full of player development that sucks.

 

[Vinny Boombatz]

This is just my belief, but I don't think there are any kids that should play in the pros at 18...I think the draft age should be pushed back to 20 and none of the players can enter the league unless they are 20.

1 - It would improve the objectivity and selection of draft picks to have an additional 2 years worth of development
2 - It would certainly help the kids mature more and would lessen injuries and the ruining of players by rushing them to the NHL
3 - I believe it would lengthen the career of most players, because the 38yr old wouldn't be fighting with an entry level prospect to stay in the league. Fewer opportunities means longer lifespan for older players.

The only con would be those "exceptional" players like Bedard that can actually produce well enough (50+ pts) to actually play pro when 18 yrs old (ala Sid, ect)...but those are rare.

 

[rt]

Chayka seemed like he had some master plan and I bought it. But then there were warning signs that it was all BS. Ultimately he was exposed as a total fraud. I trusted him until he gave me reasons not to. I’m not embarrassed by that. It’s called being a fan.

I think it’s different with BA. He’s got the track record, he’s got the spotless reputation, he brought in tons of highly qualified, highly thought of people. These are all encouraging signs that deserve the benefit of the doubt.

The difference in resumes between Chayka, Hofford, Goldberg and co vs Armstrong, Ferguson, Plandowski, Hepple and co is night and day. And I think that speaks volumes.

 

[Kai Yo T]

I don't think any GM would end up looking good with the restrictions our GMs have had to deal with. BA has a much greater amount experience and also used the money AM provides to surround himself with people and tools that none of the others had. He now has many reputable hockey minds to help him make good decisions. Chayka was mostly on his own. Still, he made moves we weren't anywhere near ready for yet IMO. Hall just made us bigger pretenders. I never really felt much progress with Chayka at the helm. Just some fairytale overachieving in there.

*Edited to remove something inaccurate, as pointed out.

 

[Kaibur]

20/20 but I've thought about this alternate history looking from our current rebuild. On 6/23/17 right before the 2017 draft when he traded Murphy for Hjalmarsson and Deangelo + 7OV for Stepan + Raanta and then named Tocchet coach was, for me, the crossroads that started the trades of all the high picks from the build. No one had traded a top 10 pick like that in over a decade, so it was known to be very risky. (I wanted to take Vilardi). I think trading for those vets took us from bad to mediocre, but we didn't have the young core talent to ever go anywhere beyond that.

In retrospect, look at the young assets that we had at that time as a roster today:

Crouse - Strome - Keller
Duclair - Dvorak - Garland
Bunting - Vilardi - Domi
Perlini - Martinook - Fischer

OEL - Murphy
Chychrun - Deangelo
Capobianco - Mayo
Joseph

Hill / Domingue

Even with infusions of talent from free agency, I don't think that roster would have ever had much success. Should they have continued being bad or tried to make the turn? The 5 years prior, they had picked 12, 12, 3, 7 and had the 7th. There wasn't enough concentration of talent at the top.

You can build from the net out, but at some point you've got to get some high-end talent at center, and we've just never been able to do that to date.

To the present, can we eventually win a Stanley Cup with Cooley, Geekie, and Hayton as the centers? It's sort of similar to what we were asking when we had Strome and Dvorak in the pipeline going into the 2017 draft. In the last 5 years, we've picked 5, 11, 9, 3, 11 (made up for no pick). There's obviously more support picks in the 25-75 range this time, but is that enough concentration of talent at the top? It currently looks somewhat similar to where we were 5 years ago.

TL;DR - Let's pick Bedard next June

 

[rt]

20/20 but I've thought about this alternate history looking from our current rebuild. On 6/23/17 right before the 2017 draft when he traded Murphy for Hjalmarsson and Deangelo + 7OV for Stepan + Raanta and then named Tocchet coach was, for me, the crossroads that started the trades of all the high picks from the build. No one had traded a top 10 pick like that in over a decade, so it was known to be very risky. (I wanted to take Vilardi). I think trading for those vets took us from bad to mediocre, but we didn't have the young core talent to ever go anywhere beyond that.

In retrospect, look at the young assets that we had at that time as a roster today:

Crouse - Strome - Keller
Duclair - Dvorak - Garland
Bunting - Vilardi - Domi
Perlini - Martinook - Fischer

OEL - Murphy
Chychrun - Deangelo
Capobianco - Mayo
Joseph

Hill / Domingue

Even with infusions of talent from free agency, I don't think that roster would have ever had much success. Should they have continued being bad or tried to make the turn? The 5 years prior, they had picked 12, 12, 3, 7 and had the 7th. There wasn't enough concentration of talent at the top.

You can build from the net out, but at some point you've got to get some high-end talent at center, and we've just never been able to do that to date.

To the present, can we eventually win a Stanley Cup with Cooley, Geekie, and Hayton as the centers? It's sort of similar to what we were asking when we had Strome and Dvorak in the pipeline going into the 2017 draft. In the last 5 years, we've picked 5, 11, 9, 3, 11 (made up for no pick). There's obviously more support picks in the 25-75 range this time, but is that enough concentration of talent at the top? It currently looks somewhat similar to where we were 5 years ago.

TL;DR - Let's pick Bedard next June

Damn good post. And the GOAT TL;DR

 

[SpaceCoyote]

Still, he made moves we weren't anywhere near ready for yet IMO. Hall just made us bigger pretenders. Like a last ditch effort to save his job. I never really felt much progress with Chayka at the helm. Just some fairytale overachieving in there.

Chayka's contract was extended a month before he traded for Hall, I don't think there was any pressure on job status at that point.

 

[Kai Yo T]

Chayka's contract was extended a month before he traded for Hall, I don't think there was any pressure on job status at that point.

Was it? I didn't realize that.

 

[Kai Yo T]

Anyone else wonder what Chayka thinks about everything that's transpired with the team since he quit? Lol

 

[Mangosteen]

We were very close to being contenders. I truly believe most was on RT by not using the talent effectively. By playoffs we were a mess. Still remember the meat head saying you just get talented players and let them play. Punch drunk fool. If we only had a system that made sense.

Rick still gets my blood boiling.

 

[AZviaNJ]

Chayka’s 2 most important hires, RT and Hofford, derailed any chance of success and ultimately led to his demise.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

We were very close to being contenders. I truly believe most was on RT by not using the talent effectively. By playoffs we were a mess. Still remember the meat head saying you just get talented players and let them play. Punch drunk fool. If we only had a system that made sense.

Rick still gets my blood boiling.

That's the hell of it all. I've made a conscious decision to move on, but had BA dumped RT sooner, he'd have had better analysis. Better analysis would have proven there was no need to blow it up to such an extreme imo.

 

[Coyotes19c]

That's the hell of it all. I've made a conscious decision to move on, but had BA dumped RT sooner, he'd have had better analysis. Better analysis would have proven there was no need to blow it up to such an extreme imo.

It will be worth it in 3 years.

 

[SirLancelot]

Overall, I think Chayka made some good trades.

The big ones:
- Like someone mentioned above, the Hall trade really hurt because of the illegal testing punishment. Trading Bahl and a 1st for Hall (who wasn’t against an extension if I recall) is not a terrible trade. What happened afterward was what contributed to the sting. I remember a high scoring game we were playing at home against Minnesota that Kuemper did not need to stay in for. I think he let in like 6-8 goals, then he got injured. We were close to leading the Pacific when he went down, and our team began to plummet. We got bounced out of the playoffs quickly and it was clear that Hall would test free agency at that point. Then we lost the other draft picks and didn’t pick until the 4th round, selecting none other than Miller. Overall just a really weird, disappointing year.

- Domi for Galchenyuk was a gamble I think a lot of teams would have made. I hated losing Domi but he apparently wanted a fresh start, so why not trade for a “natural” center around Max’s age that has put up 30 goals before? Both guys are journeymen now, with the competitive edge to Domi. Nobody saw that coming.

The good:
- Acquiring Goligoski’s rights for a 5th
- Acquiring 16th overall and Datsyuk’s contract for Vitale, 20th and 53rd overall. We ended up walking away from the 2016 first round with Keller and Chychrun. Still one of my favorite drafts.
- Acquiring DeAngelo for 37th overall in that same draft was a great gamble. Say what you will about him personally but he has always been a great hockey player.
- Acquiring Kuemper for Rieder. He must’ve seen the future on this one.
- Acquiring Crouse for a 3rd and a 2nd (although having Crouse make the team out of camp was dumb because it could have been for two 3rds.)
- Acquiring a 1st and a 2nd for Hanzal is an insane return looking back. The full trade has more moving parts but those are the meat and potatoes. Too bad we used that first on POJ, though. Never liked that pick.
- Demers for McGinn was good, although Demers fell off pretty quickly afterward.
- Wedgewood for a 5th was good, too.
- Kessel for POJ and Galchenyuk is still probably a win right now. Kessel contributed more to us than Galchenyuk did to the Pens, and POJ is not really a factor right now. This could change.


The bad:
- Although Raanta was a solider for us and Stepan had a good first season, trading 7th overall and DeAngelo looks pretty bad now.
- Panik for Duclair was never a good trade.


The wash:
- Hjalmarsson for Murphy deal. Hjalmarsson didn’t last as long, but he was still an elite shutdown defenseman
- Schmaltz for Strome and Perlini hurt at first, but both Schmaltz and Strome are pretty even at this point. Maybe even the edge to Schmaltz, right now.
- Hinostroza for the Hossa contract is pretty meh. Didn’t really hurt us but didn’t really benefit us.

Great breakdown, I like how aggressive Chyka was in trying to make this team a winner. I was never on board with Hall, he was too expensive of a rental. Chyka relied too much on analytics, they should augment your decisions not be the base of them.

 

[Mangosteen]

I am trying to drink the koolaid. It’s easy to nuke a team, very difficult to rebuild. We have an amazing draft team. Don’t believe you can draft your way out of sucking, you will need to draft and trade (draft capital) and attract talent UFA and RFAs. Hopefully we can start to do it. Once we have started an arena and have a completion date… once complete we may start to be competitive again.

Draft is maybe 30 to 40 percent. Come on BA amaze me with the other 60 to 70 percent of business.

Question What have we done to improve developing talent?

 

[Coyotedroppings]

It will be worth it in 3 years.

That could be debated until the cows come home..... and these are some rangy, wild, sum bitch cows.

 

[Jakey53]

That's the hell of it all. I've made a conscious decision to move on, but had BA dumped RT sooner, he'd have had better analysis. Better analysis would have proven there was no need to blow it up to such an extreme imo.

I agree 100%

 

[SirLancelot]

I am trying to drink the koolaid. It’s easy to nuke a team, very difficult to rebuild. We have an amazing draft team. Don’t believe you can draft your way out of sucking, you will need to draft and trade (draft capital) and attract talent UFA and RFAs. Hopefully we can start to do it. Once we have started an arena and have a completion date… once complete we may start to be competitive again.

Draft is maybe 30 to 40 percent. Come on BA amaze me with the other 60 to 70 percent of business.

Question What have we done to improve developing talent?

draft is 60 to 70 percent. (maybe more?)

two teams off the top of my head that's had recent and historic success.

Bruins: Marchand, Pasta, bergeron- all drafted

Aves- Mac, raanttanen, Makar- all drafted.

RFA's rarely move teams. UFA's usually sink your payroll and underperform.

Trades are the big wildcard.

 

[Jamieh]

draft is 60 to 70 percent. (maybe more?)

two teams off the top of my head that's had recent and historic success.

Bruins: Marchand, Pasta, bergeron- all drafted

Aves- Mac, raanttanen, Makar- all drafted.

RFA's rarely move teams. UFA's usually sink your payroll and underperform.

Trades are the big wildcard.

More important to Bruins were Chara and Rask for last decade.

 

[SirLancelot]

More important to Bruins were Chara and Rask for last decade.

Chara maybe but Rask? no way.

 

[Jamieh]

Chara maybe but Rask? no way.

Won a Vezina, was 2nd and 5th other years and posted a better than .920 save percentage. Yeah he was.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

draft is 60 to 70 percent. (maybe more?)

two teams off the top of my head that's had recent and historic success.

Bruins: Marchand, Pasta, bergeron- all drafted

Aves- Mac, raanttanen, Makar- all drafted.

RFA's rarely move teams. UFA's usually sink your payroll and underperform.

Trades are the big wildcard.

My only comment in regard to that is that we have not drafted anyone that shows the promise of any of the players you mentioned.

 

[cobra427]

I didn't like the hire at the time, Chayka had zero experience running an organization, making trades, drafting, picking a coach, anything. I was surprised when they extended him, for what? I can't fault him really, he did the best he could with what he knew or thought he knew. Chayka was in over his head, thats not his fault, it is the people that hired and extended him.

The advantage of BA is coming from a very successful organization. I do think the Blues have the model to build a club through drafting and development, countless examples of that the last 15 years for the Blues. BA can lever what he learned, our chances of success are greater.

My only critique of BA was waiting a year to start the rebuild, keeping RT, not trading OEL right away, other young players gone and now Chych situation. BA has no experience in doing a complete tear down and restart, not his fault he doesn't know what he doesn't know how to do. I have experience in this area, you cut fast and keep who you keep, make it clear. In any event, hopefully we are there now after whatever happens with Chych, the plan is in place and BA has a much better shot then Chayka of making us a consistens winner.