Speculation: Discussing the Next GM (Part 2)

[NORiculous]

I never said zero. How many qualified candidates are bilingual compared to not? You’re limiting your pool by making language a condition of employment. That’s what I’m saying.

What is important is to have a qualified person and you can find some that speak French.

« Limiting your pool » is an illusion if you already have qualified people.

 

[Edgy]

We know that no matter what language, in any country, you can find idiots and you can find intelligent qualified people.

Thinking that no French speaking person can build a winning team is wrong. It has nothing to do with « limiting your list ».

No one is saying don't hire anyone that speaks French! Absolutely no one. We are saying hire the best available person regardless of what language they speak or don't speak.

You on the other hand are saying don't hire anyone that does not speak French.

By your logic the Habs should have never hired Bowman because he does not speak French.

Speaking French shouldn't be the #1 prerequisite for the job, so disqualifying someone that doesn't only limits your candidates and the your potential of finding the best available candidate.

 

[Schwang]

That is not what I am debating.
All I am saying is that it is BS that no French speaking is qualified enough to build a winning team. And that is implied when people say that limiting the candidates to only French speaking people will result is a fail.

You’re making that assumption. I certainly didn’t say that nor did I imply it. I simply stated why limit yourself to a limited pool of candidates rather than all candidates? The simple odds would be that your best candidate MIGHT not be bilingual, considering most of the population of North America isn’t.
Guys, I just want a winning team. I truly don’t care what language anyone in the organization speaks. If I cared, I probably wouldn’t have followed this team since the mid 70’s and watched seasons of Habs games in French (I’m not bilingual)

 

[Schwang]

What is important is to have a qualified person and you can find some that speak French.

« Limiting your pool » is an illusion if you already have qualified people.

We just need to look at it this way. What are Marc and Claudes main job/purpose on this team? To ice a winning team. What is the main job of a reporter? To convey the news to his or her readers and listeners. The reporter chose that profession in that province. I understand the need to be bilingual in that case. It would be important and a main qualification for their job.
Honestly, if the Habs were winning cups, I wouldn’t give a crap if management never spoke! It’s not their main bloody job!

 

[peate]

By your logic the Habs should have never hired Bowman because he does not speak French.

But he does...bad though.

 

[NORiculous]

Gotcha.....this I agree with 100%

Thing is, we can’t just look at who there is but who’s available, is there a marriage to be had between ownership and GM, GM and coach, coach and players, that’s where it becomes complex

Sure. Never said it was simple.

I was just tired of reading the repeating narrative that « only looking in the French speaking people is going to lead to fail and thus it is needed to open up the language barrier ».

Sure that narrative was masked up with « building lists », « more people » and such but it still comes down to the same BS.

But you just opened up some whole other issue which is ownership. However, I will let that rest... cause its pretty pointless right now.

 

[Edgy]

But he does...bad though.

My bad, I only saw interviews of him speaking English so I assumed he did not. But the logic still stands, why eliminate potential candidates based on language only? What's wrong with having and interpreter?

 

[NORiculous]

No one is saying don't hire anyone that speaks French! Absolutely no one. We are saying hire the best available person regardless of what language they speak or don't speak.

You on the other hand are saying don't hire anyone that does not speak French.

By your logic the Habs should have never hired Bowman because he does not speak French.

Speaking French shouldn't be the #1 prerequisite for the job, so disqualifying someone that doesn't only limits your candidates and the your potential of finding the best available candidate.

You are not saying it but you are implying that you can’t find a qualified French person to do the job. And I think that is false.

 

[Beer and Chips]

This has probably been brought up but I'll ask anyway, has there every been a poll in Quebec about the importance of the gm speaking French?

 

[habsterr]

Next Habs coach likely will be Vigneault or Boucher, maybe the odd chance of Vincent or Ducharme. But for GM they're no good french candidates available.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

That is false and that is exactly what the false narrative is.

If I was to use that narrative snd turn it around it would give us this:

You can find much more English speaking people who failed at building a winning team, so they are much more risky candidates.

That kind of narrative is BS. One way or the other.

Your own narrative is BS.

Exchange Men for French and English for women, and your line of thought is the same that kept women out of power for so long.

Why get a women, we want men?

Are you telling me men can't build a cup winner, I'm sure we have sufficient men who are capable, no need to hire a woman?

It reeks of unequal opportunity.

You take the best candidate possible, no matter the language. Right now, there's a huge disproportion between English and French qualified candidates in hockey. By selecting only French, you're eliminating more than 90% of candidates. How can you even pretend you have the best candidate when you select like this?

Don't worry, your nordics will be back soon enough and your kind (not the French as I am French, merci bcp, I mean the bigots) will be able to ask any kind of ridiculous policy from your 'national' team.

 

[NORiculous]

Next Habs coach likely will be Vigneault or Boucher, maybe the odd chance of Vincent or Ducharme. But for GM they're no good french candidates available.

If you look a little more, you can probably find a lot more qualified people that speak French than that.
Coach Benoit Groulx is one that quickly comes to mind but there are probably much more.

 

[Edgy]

You are not saying it but you are implying that you can’t find a qualified French person to do the job. And I think that is false.

I'm not implying that at all actually. I'm explicitly saying consider everyone, even if they don't speak a lick of English and only ever speak French. Consider everyone based on qualifications, not language.

I already also said if you have 2 guys with equal qualifications and one speaks French and the other does not, hire the French speaking one.

You have been given names of potential non-French speaking GMs that are miles ahead of Bergevin, feel free to list bilingual or uni-lingual French speaking candidates that are better.

 

[NORiculous]

Your own narrative is BS.

Exchange Men for French and English for women, and your line of thought is the same that kept women out of power for so long.

Why get a women, we want men?

Are you telling me men can't build a cup winner, I'm sure we have sufficient men who are capable, no need to hire a woman?

It reeks of unequal opportunity.

You take the best candidate possible, no matter the language. Right now, there's a huge disproportion between English and French qualified candidates in hockey. By selecting only French, you're eliminating more than 90% of candidates. How can you even pretend you have the best candidate when you select like this?

Don't worry, your nordics will be back soon enough and your kind (not the French as I am French, merci bcp, I mean the bigots) will be able to ask any kind of ridiculous policy from your 'national' team.

I can see the hate in your words. No need to continue. Cheers,

 

[NORiculous]

I'm not implying that at all actually. I'm explicitly saying consider everyone, even if they don't speak a lick of English and only ever speak French. Consider everyone based on qualifications, not language.

I already also said if you have 2 guys with equal qualifications and one speaks French and the other does not, hire the French speaking one.

You have been given names of potential non-French speaking GMs that are miles ahead of Bergevin, feel free to list bilingual or uni-lingual French speaking candidates that are better.

I an NOT trying to defend Bergevin.
Just saying that it is possible to find a French speaking person that can build a winner and that needing to open up the list to English is implying that you can’t find one that speaks French.

 

[Edgy]

This has probably been brought up but I'll ask anyway, has there every been a poll in Quebec about the importance of the gm speaking French?

Not to my knowledge but I imagine it will be overwhelmingly in favor of French speaking. There isn't much enthusiasm for non-French speaking outside of Montreal I would assume based on the language distribution in the province.

 

[Edgy]

I an NOT trying to defend Bergevin.
Just saying that it is possible to find a French speaking person that can build a winner and that needing to open up the list to English is implying that you can’t find one that speaks French.

The only way your narrative is true if we say don't consider anyone that speak French.

We are all saying hire the best candidate, whether they only speak French, English, both or neither.

 

[ZUKI]

Again. The bilingual thing is ridiculous. That you would limit your hiring pool that much is just dumb when the league is approaching 32 teams now. No wonder the Habs have recycled the same coaches so many times. Hire an interpreter if it’s that important. All I want is a winning team. I don’t care what language they speak!

It isn't ridiculous . It isn't about being able to translate or not . Quebec fans, mostly those out of Montreal , don't want an interpreter but want to listen to someone live who speaks their own language . Quebec is a province completely surrounded by anglophones . It's a natural thing that we wish to keep it that way, with the most prestigious sportive team .

If there are so many GMs candidates available , explain me why it's always the same old guys that are hired until they are again fired ?

 

[CrAzYNiNe]

You’re making that assumption. I certainly didn’t say that nor did I imply it. I simply stated why limit yourself to a limited pool of candidates rather than all candidates? The simple odds would be that your best candidate MIGHT not be bilingual, considering most of the population of North America isn’t.
Guys, I just want a winning team. I truly don’t care what language anyone in the organization speaks. If I cared, I probably wouldn’t have followed this team since the mid 70’s and watched seasons of Habs games in French (I’m not bilingual)

I didn't read anything you had written as anything but looking for a fair process. Only people who are stubborn in some fictional tradition read what they want to read on this topic.

Like you, I want the Habs to hire the best candidate. Having some arbitrary criteria, like speaking french, is a detriment to the process given the vast majority of qualified people for this type of job may not speak french. Should the best candidate win out and happens to also speak french, jubilation for some, business as usual for others. But really who cares? I want to celebrate come June on Ste-Catherine street with my fellow habs fans whatever language they may speak.

 

[didimentionlarseller]

Ok so if I use your « factual thinking » that means that no one other then English speaking people will ever win the cup... because, hey, the proof is in the history.
That is pure BS. Sorry

youre the one saying no one other than English speaking people etcetc not me I just said take the best person available and I dont care about language

the proof is in history at least you got that right - it shouldnt take an einstein level of intelligence to see that this current ownership / management group of french people is circling the toilet bowl year after year

im french also but for some reason want a winning hockey team over a language assimilation program

 

[CHwest]

The ratio is probably 50 coaches to 1

You know what they call a poker player that chases 50 to 1 odds. Broke.

 

[FormerLurker]

You are not saying it but you are implying that you can’t find a qualified French person to do the job. And I think that is false.

The problem with this argument is that it assumes all "qualified" candidates are equal. But this is certainly not the case. Being qualified for the job just means the candidate meets the minimum requirements. We should be looking for the best candidate among all those that are qualified. The best candidate may or not speak French.

 

[CHwest]

What is important is to have a qualified person and you can find some that speak French.

« Limiting your pool » is an illusion if you already have qualified people.

I don't want a person that is qualified, I want the best. Simple math tells me he probably won't be french.

 

[didimentionlarseller]

You are not saying it but you are implying that you can’t find a qualified French person to do the job. And I think that is false.

we would have found him by now - theres no person french enough that can take us to the cup ill say it

 

[didimentionlarseller]

i demand we try a parisian french coach and management team lets go back to the old country