Blue Jays Discussion: Dioner Navarro: The Anti-JP.

[Canada4Gold]

it's a failure in the sense that trying to jump over the grand canyon and not doing it is a failure. You weren't going to do any better to begin with.

 

[SoulOnIce]

Diaz has looked very bad in some big positional hitting spots. 3rd base with one out in Boston comes to mind. Tonight had another example. Hell, I think Kawasaki would be better. And that just shows how bad the bench is.

Francisco has been a decent surprise, Getz looks okay, maybe there is someone else in the system to help the bench??

 

[canucksfan]

it's a failure in the sense that trying to jump over the grand canyon and not doing it is a failure. You weren't going to do any better to begin with.

Because that relates to baseball very well.

 

[Canada4Gold]

Because that relates to baseball very well.

but it's true. If the only option was failure then you can complain about it all you want, no matter what they chose to do they would have failed.

Keep him, he walks we get nothing, fail

Trade him for less, we fail

Trade him for what we did, they bust, we failed.

We were doomed to fail from the start.

Analogies tend to not relate to the thing you're comparing them too, it's kind of the definition of an analogy

 

[Eyedea]

it's a fail because they did not receive an impact player

it isn't much of a success for philly either because they didn't go to the world series

 

[Mach85]

Halladay was only going to accept a trade to Philadelphia. And what the Jays got was basically 3 of their best 5 prospects. It's a pretty safe assumption that was the best offer the Jays were gonna get.

This. And Gose came by way of Brett Wallace and Michael Taylor. AA was handcuffed in terms of options of where to send Roy, and got a good return of futures. Prospects don't always work out. I've always been critical of the Dickey trade since it was made, so I don't think AA is perfect, but hindsight is 20/20 in this case.

 

[Longshot]

I was thinking about this last night when I was having trouble sleeping.

What would this team look like right now if it hadn't decided to try to vault itself to instant contender status with the Marlins and then Mets trades? Where would the Jays be if they had of kept up their steady rebuild and acquiring prospects.

Here's what I came up with. Obviously I had to make a few assumptions. But my main assumption is they kept the majority of their players and continued with the steady rebuilding.

1B: EE
2B: Goins/Kawasaki/Getz/Diaz
SS: Hechavarria
3B: Lawrie
C: d'Arnaud
LF: Gose/Sierra
CF: Rasmus
RF: Bautista
DH: Lind
C2: Arencibia (I assume the Jays would have held a young talent like him as a back up)
Plus three bench players

SP: Morrow
SP: Happ
SP: Alvarez
SP: Hutchison
SP: McGowan/Rogers/Redmond/Another free agent they signed

RP: Janssen
RP: Santos
RP: Delabar
RP: Cecil
RP: McGowan/Rogers/Redmond
RP: McGowan/Rogers/Redmond (1 in rotation, two in BP)
RP: Loup

Still in the system: Marisnick, Nicolino, Syndergaard. Plus the other guys in those trades that I have never heard of.

Can anybody say that lineup would be performing significantly worse than what we're seeing now? And, Syndergaard, Stroman, Sanchez, Nolin would all be on the cusp of joining the rotation to go with Alvarez and Hutch.

Obviously there would be significant drop offs in LF and SS (although, to be blunt: Reyes has sucked this year). And the rotation is still a disaster, but honestly, would Happ and Alvarez be THAT big of a difference between the performances of Dickey and Buerhle (who I think we all agree will probably start to trend back towards his normal output as the season moves on).

 

[NeverGoingToWin]

Gose and Tolleson were called up.

Diaz sent down and Sierra DFA.

 

[dredeye]

I was thinking about this last night when I was having trouble sleeping.

What would this team look like right now if it hadn't decided to try to vault itself to instant contender status with the Marlins and then Mets trades? Where would the Jays be if they had of kept up their steady rebuild and acquiring prospects.

Here's what I came up with. Obviously I had to make a few assumptions. But my main assumption is they kept the majority of their players and continued with the steady rebuilding.

1B: EE
2B: Goins/Kawasaki/Getz/Diaz
SS: Hechavarria
3B: Lawrie
C: d'Arnaud
LF: Gose/Sierra
CF: Rasmus
RF: Bautista
DH: Lind
C2: Arencibia (I assume the Jays would have held a young talent like him as a back up)
Plus three bench players

SP: Morrow
SP: Happ
SP: Alvarez
SP: Hutchison
SP: McGowan/Rogers/Redmond/Another free agent they signed

RP: Janssen
RP: Santos
RP: Delabar
RP: Cecil
RP: McGowan/Rogers/Redmond
RP: McGowan/Rogers/Redmond (1 in rotation, two in BP)
RP: Loup

Still in the system: Marisnick, Nicolino, Syndergaard. Plus the other guys in those trades that I have never heard of.

Can anybody say that lineup would be performing significantly worse than what we're seeing now? And, Syndergaard, Stroman, Sanchez, Nolin would all be on the cusp of joining the rotation to go with Alvarez and Hutch.

Obviously there would be significant drop offs in LF and SS (although, to be blunt: Reyes has sucked this year). And the rotation is still a disaster, but honestly, would Happ and Alvarez be THAT big of a difference between the performances of Dickey and Buerhle (who I think we all agree will probably start to trend back towards his normal output as the season moves on).

I know what your saying with all of this and that's the painful part. That they made all those moves for really really strong talent and we've really seen no true benefit from it. As to your post you could leave Cabrera in because he was signed as a free agent and the same goes for Izturis. Although without the Marlins trade we still have Yunel Escobar who would obviously be our ss. JPA would have been moved either way because you don't keep a horrible defensive catcher as your back up catcher. They could have not made the Rogers trade and kept Yan Gomes and Aviles. I also forgot we included Mathis in the Marlins trade who would also back up catch. That's your back up ss and catcher. But it puts you down another starter. I will say last year would have been way more brutal because we wouldn't have had Hutch in the rotation and Alvarez was starting to get exposed in the AL east before being traded and may have been pretty bad by now. But that's speculation on my part because he could have also figured things out himself and turned the page here. DeSclafani was the other prospect sent to the Marlins who I had as a bit of a sneaker prospect. Pitcher putting up solid numbers in the low levels but didn't have a super high ceiling. At the end of the day the team would look much different either way but hindsight is just that. We went all in which everyone was clamouring for. Not many of us were ok with the build as it was going. I was one of those happy with the teams direction pre trade. But many of us spent our time in the forums defending that Rogers would spend when they thought the time was right and they did. So as is the case with most fan bases. Your damned if you do and damned if you don't. They went all in and unfortunately it failed. That happens and now it looks like it's time to re set and try again. AA is likely going to be a very busy man at the deadline trying to re coup as many assets as possible for our vets. Already talk of Buerhle having the most value of our starters. Moving him for a good return would be a coup and free up much needed money going forward.

 

[dredeye]

Gose and Tolleson were called up.

Diaz sent down and Sierra DFA.

You had to figure that Sierra was done.

 

[dredeye]

You should get at least one player that will be good especially when you are trading one of the best pitchers in the game.

Travis D'Arnaud

 

[dredeye]

It doesn't matter if Philly was the only team, the trade looks like a complete failure.

That's how prospects work. You aren't guaranteed anything. D'Arnaud who still has a chance to be good"unfortunately not with us" was part of a huge trade for us. Gose who was acquired with a prospect from the Halladay trade is the best of the three involved in that. It's not AA's fault that Gose regressed for whatever reason. Gose should be to us what Hamilton is to the Reds. Drabek has had serious injuries and you can't fault AA for that. He comes from a hell of a pedigree and his ceiling was higher than his fathers I believe. That is a hell of a return for a player in the last year of his contract that has indicated he was leaving once his contract was up and would only accept a trade to one team.

 

[mikebel111*]

Gose and Tolleson were called up.

Diaz sent down and Sierra DFA.

no surprise really
Did he do anything of significance to this team?

 

[TootooTrain]

@ShiDavidi BlueJays recall OF Anthony Gose, purchase contract of INF Steve Tolleson from triple-A Buffalo, option INF Jonathan Diaz, DFA Moises Sierra

 

[mikebel111*]

That's how prospects work. You aren't guaranteed anything. D'Arnaud who still has a chance to be good"unfortunately not with us" was part of a huge trade for us. Gose who was acquired with a prospect from the Halladay trade is the best of the three involved in that. It's not AA's fault that Gose regressed for whatever reason. Gose should be to us what Hamilton is to the Reds. Drabek has had serious injuries and you can't fault AA for that. He comes from a hell of a pedigree and his ceiling was higher than his fathers I believe. That is a hell of a return for a player in the last year of his contract that has indicated he was leaving once his contract was up and would only accept a trade to one team.

I think we need to get used to that Gose will probably always be a high K man, he is starting to walk but I am still holding out hope his bat develops still. He is still pretty young.
As for the trade, the trade hasn't worked out well, but as u said, prospects are always hit and miss.

 

[mikebel111*]

With Gose called up, I think we can assume that he has now made the Jays full time, unless he totally flops.

 

[Longshot]

I know what your saying with all of this and that's the painful part. That they made all those moves for really really strong talent and we've really seen no true benefit from it. As to your post you could leave Cabrera in because he was signed as a free agent and the same goes for Izturis. Although without the Marlins trade we still have Yunel Escobar who would obviously be our ss.

I think Escobar was gone after that incident involving the face paint. Regardless of whether or not the Jays were going to continue the rebuild or try and contend.

I also assumed they wouldn't sign Melky and Izturis if they were continuing on a steady rebuild. What would be the point? All they would do is take at bats away from younger players.

 

[NeverGoingToWin]

We have no 2nd baseman so Izturis is probably still signed. Cabrera is highly unlikely though.

 

[Woodman19]

Now just bring up Katz and keep Francisco when Lind is back and move McGowan back to the pen and put Stroman in his spot and we will solidify the bench, pitching, hitting and defense.

Also trading for a 2B won't hurt either.

 

[p.l.f.]

Tolleson as the backup infielder
Sure whatever

 

[ShaneFalco]

With Gose called up, I think we can assume that he has now made the Jays full time, unless he totally flops.

Well he can steal bases at least.....if gets on

 

[Canada4Gold]

About damn time

 

[Suntouchable13]

Reyes is upset with the team: http://www.tsn.ca/blogs/scott_macarthur/?id=450920

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

Reyes is upset with the team: http://www.tsn.ca/blogs/scott_macarthur/?id=450920

Perhaps a man batting .200 and making $16m should look inward.

 

[mikebel111*]

JP is probably looking at the title and saying
"I get harped on too much here, my defence is getting better, yes i strike out, but i am improving on that as well. Plus i hit HR so I am a good player"
Thank goodness that clown is gone from the team