News Article: Dion Phaneuf plays against toughest competition

[studebaker17]

While you make a good argument, your first sentence is already somewhat bias, is it not? Why use only the last 20 games as the benchmark? I rememeber up to the break, he was playing great. It could be perhaps fatigue or an injury? And if you think that's making excuses (I guess that kind of is), then why not consider his first 20 games, or whatever 20 games where he played quite well?

i find all this funny lol. both sides cherry pick stats to suit there cases lol. if you took the 1st half of the season you could make a strong case he was a top 10 d and absolutely was the best on the leafs. for the 2nd half he was brutal especially in the last 20 games. shot differentials ,corsi ect still come down to +-. he was on for almost 20 more goals than allowed in the 1st half and on for almost 20 goals against more than scored for the 2nd half. arguing the goalie bailed him out is a joke because the same goalie plays for all the d and dp's +- was significantly better than any other d for the 1st half. what surprises me is gardiners stats being so strong as the season progressed. same with rielly , if he had of had the ice time and all the games the others did i'm sure he would of led the d in points by a wide margin. to me fransen was as bad as could be. regardless of possession times ect it doesn't account for how often he blew coverages , coughed the puck up or made a terrible pinch.

 

[Jer416]

i find all this funny lol. both sides cherry pick stats to suit there cases lol. if you took the 1st half of the season you could make a strong case he was a top 10 d and absolutely was the best on the leafs. for the 2nd half he was brutal especially in the last 20 games. shot differentials ,corsi ect still come down to +-. he was on for almost 20 more goals than allowed in the 1st half and on for almost 20 goals against more than scored for the 2nd half. arguing the goalie bailed him out is a joke because the same goalie plays for all the d and dp's +- was significantly better than any other d for the 1st half. what surprises me is gardiners stats being so strong as the season progressed. same with rielly , if he had of had the ice time and all the games the others did i'm sure he would of led the d in points by a wide margin. to me fransen was as bad as could be. regardless of possession times ect it doesn't account for how often he blew coverages , coughed the puck up or made a terrible pinch.

Well that's how arguments happen xD Everyone tries to find whatever supports their theory/beliefs and believes the other perspectives are wrong Haha.

 

[bunjay]

i find all this funny lol. both sides cherry pick stats to suit there cases lol. if you took the 1st half of the season you could make a strong case he was a top 10 d and absolutely was the best on the leafs. for the 2nd half he was brutal especially in the last 20 games. shot differentials ,corsi ect still come down to +-. he was on for almost 20 more goals than allowed in the 1st half and on for almost 20 goals against more than scored for the 2nd half. arguing the goalie bailed him out is a joke because the same goalie plays for all the d and dp's +- was significantly better than any other d for the 1st half. what surprises me is gardiners stats being so strong as the season progressed. same with rielly , if he had of had the ice time and all the games the others did i'm sure he would of led the d in points by a wide margin. to me fransen was as bad as could be. regardless of possession times ect it doesn't account for how often he blew coverages , coughed the puck up or made a terrible pinch.

What's funnier is how two people can watch the same game and see two completely different things. Stats are open to interpretation, and there are so many different things being tracked now that one stat is bound to contradict another at some point.

But I've lost count of the times people on this forum have congratulated Phaneuf on a great game that I thought was just awful. And, not coincidentally, do the opposite for Gunnarsson.

The stats won't show you how often a player makes a major blunder but gets bailed out by his goalie, his d-partner, or whoever. They won't show you bad line changes, bad penalties (or good ones, for that matter), etc. Only watching the games can tell you that, but after watching 70+ games over a few months one's memory ends up as more of a general impression.

I always thought it would be funny to make video compilations for a player like Phaneuf after each game showing all the good and bad plays they made. It would certainly shut a lot of people up, but it would take so long you'd basically have to be getting paid to do it, or be the world's biggest loser.

"Great game by Phaneuf!"

"Actually, here's a 3 minute video compilation of why that's not true..."

Same could be said for any controversial player on any team.

 

[Funk21]

After 3 years in Toronto and how many in Calgary?, you don't get rid of a number one which Phaneuf certainly is not. He was a cancer there, he is a cancer here. Maybe he is liked on this team maybe he is not but his play and his cap hit is a cancer so you get rid of him if you can. He doesn't need a better supporting cast, yes our d needs to get better and that starts will trading phaneuf.

Even if we have to take a step back I'm okay with

Gunnarson
Gardiner
Reilly
Gleason
Grandberg

Plus two defensive defensman traded for or signed in the off season as our d-Corp going into next year.

 

[Bluelines]

When he was on the ice we gave up more shots against and less when he was not on the ice. Dion is responsible for his own play. Why are you willing to ignore this?

Gardiner on the other hand was the exact opposite. We were better with him on the ice then when he was off the ice.

So what you are saying is the guys who faced Dion like Malkin,Crosby, Toews, kane, Ovie got more shot s than other players on their team... go figure.. its clearly Dions fault ..I'm sure its has nothing to do with the quality of opponents..those guys that Dion was up against all night every game had a 7.2% SH percentage..keep in mind the guys that Dion faces typically have a shooting % greater than 10%... so not for nothing but from a scoring perspective the best players on the other teams performed WORSE than they typically do when they faced Dion and his s partner.

I have more stats that prove Dion is a pretty dang good d-man if you wish to continue this disussion....

 

[Tie Domi Esquire]

If Phaneuf was Chara does Bozak turn into Bergeron? If Phaneuf was replaced by Duncan Keith does Gunnarsson turn into Seabrook, Bozak into Toews, Lupul into Hossa, etc, etc?

Why does Bouwmeester look so different on St. Louis when compared to him in Calgary?

 

[Confucius]

Dion plays against toughest competition ......and fails. Never voted a 1st star, only once earned a 2nd star and twice a 3rd star. Our 7 million dollar a year captain never carried us once all year. Franson and Reilly both were a 1st star once this season and for a lot less cash.

 

[Faltorvo]

If Phaneuf was Chara does Bozak turn into Bergeron? If Phaneuf was replaced by Duncan Keith does Gunnarsson turn into Seabrook, Bozak into Toews, Lupul into Hossa, etc, etc?

Why does Bouwmeester look so different on St. Louis when compared to him in Calgary?

Is he that different?

You think the GMs of team Canada would pick a player on some kind of fluke hot streak?

 

[Tie Domi Esquire]

Hitchcock was a coach on the team, Bouwmeester is on a pairing with Pietrangelo, and they played on international ice.

 

[Funk21]

Hitchcock was a coach on the team, Bouwmeester is on a pairing with Pietrangelo, and they played on international ice.

Back to the thread at hand please

 

[Faltorvo]

Hitchcock was a coach on the team, Bouwmeester is on a pairing with Pietrangelo, and they played on international ice.

Ah ya and ?

I would argue he well earned his spot and his past record helped to back him up.

Team Canada was not going to get sucked in by some anomalous hot streak.

 

[Parkdale]

This might just explain Phaneuf's problem. He should NOT be playing so much against the toughest competition. And he should concentrate more on his defence as its when he freelances on offense that the brain cramps manifest and his speed and quickness deficiencies are exposed the most.

 

[Bluelines]

Please post that Data that supports that Dion is among the best in the League....I will await your data.

You will fine that the data supports that he is no where near a top D man and this is an opinion supported by fact!

I'll include last years Norris winner and some high profile d-men for a reference point.

Corsi Rel QOC - Defined as the average relative Corsi of opposing players, weighted by head-to-head ice time. A higher value indicates a more difficult opponent to play against.

1) Dion Phaneuf (2.044)
2) Carl Gunnarson (1.976)
4) Shea Weber (1.804)
72) PK Suban (0.575)


No other D-man was 1.9 or above, no defence man played as hard minutes as Dion. FACT

PDO - PDO is the sum of a player's on-ice save percentage and on-ice shooting percentage.
1) Carl Gunnarson (1042)
2) Dougie Hamilton (1038)
3) Dion Phaneuf (1037)
12) Zedno Chara (1024)
92) PK Subban (999)

In the simplest possible way hockey is all about scoring goals and preventing goals, if you score more than you let in you win. This stat tells us Dion is among the best at doing what it takes to win games.

Off Zone starts - A ratio showing the percentage of a player's non-neutral-zone shifts that were started in the offensive zone. Zone starts use faceoffs as a proxy for all shifts. Players with a ZS% higher than 54% could be considered sheltered or deployed offensively while players with ZS% south of 46% can be considered to be deployed defensively or doing the "heavy lifting".

1) Carl Gunnarson - 38.5%
2) Dion Phaneuf - 38.8%
21) Shea Weber - 43.5%
49) PK Suban - 47.1%

So lets see Dion faces the toughest opponents (Corsi Rel QOC) logging the most difficult minutes, while scoring and defending (PDO) at a higher rate than almost every d-man in the league, while starting out in a disadvantaged position more than almost any other defender in the league... 3 pretty solid facts ...

This game is fun, now lets see you post some facts that show that Dion is no where near a top defender.... take your time, you'll need it...

 

[Moncherry]

And how does this explain his ridiculous turnovers and boneheaded plays?

 

[Diatomic]

The guys making 7 MILLION DOLLARS. Ofcourse he's supposed to play against the freaking best in the world. You don't pay a guy 7 million to face 2nd and 3rd liners.

 

[Parkdale]

I'll include last years Norris winner and some high profile d-men for a reference point.

Corsi Rel QOC - Defined as the average relative Corsi of opposing players, weighted by head-to-head ice time. A higher value indicates a more difficult opponent to play against.

1) Dion Phaneuf (2.044)
2) Carl Gunnarson (1.976)
4) Shea Weber (1.804)
72) PK Suban (0.575)


No other D-man was 1.9 or above, no defence man played as hard minutes as Dion. FACT

PDO - PDO is the sum of a player's on-ice save percentage and on-ice shooting percentage.
1) Carl Gunnarson (1042)
2) Dougie Hamilton (1038)
3) Dion Phaneuf (1037)
12) Zedno Chara (1024)
92) PK Subban (999)

In the simplest possible way hockey is all about scoring goals and preventing goals, if you score more than you let in you win. This stat tells us Dion is among the best at doing what it takes to win games.

Off Zone starts - A ratio showing the percentage of a player's non-neutral-zone shifts that were started in the offensive zone. Zone starts use faceoffs as a proxy for all shifts. Players with a ZS% higher than 54% could be considered sheltered or deployed offensively while players with ZS% south of 46% can be considered to be deployed defensively or doing the "heavy lifting".

1) Carl Gunnarson - 38.5%
2) Dion Phaneuf - 38.8%
21) Shea Weber - 43.5%
49) PK Suban - 47.1%

So lets see Dion faces the toughest opponents (Corsi Rel QOC) logging the most difficult minutes, while scoring and defending (PDO) at a higher rate than almost every d-man in the league, while starting out in a disadvantaged position more than almost any other defender in the league... 3 pretty solid facts ...

This game is fun, now lets see you post some facts that show that Dion is no where near a top defender.... take your time, you'll need it...

Yet I would take Subban over Phaneuf 100 times out of 100. Bet I'm with the large majority on that!

 

[Reznor]

PDO - PDO is the sum of a player's on-ice save percentage and on-ice shooting percentage.
1) Carl Gunnarson (1042)
2) Dougie Hamilton (1038)
3) Dion Phaneuf (1037)
12) Zedno Chara (1024)
92) PK Subban (999)

In the simplest possible way hockey is all about scoring goals and preventing goals, if you score more than you let in you win. This stat tells us Dion is among the best at doing what it takes to win games.

It says that his goalie has a high save % and/or that he has a high shooting percentage, not that he outscores the opposition when he's on the ice.

 

[bunjay]

I'll include last years Norris winner and some high profile d-men for a reference point.

Corsi Rel QOC - Defined as the average relative Corsi of opposing players, weighted by head-to-head ice time. A higher value indicates a more difficult opponent to play against.

1) Dion Phaneuf (2.044)
2) Carl Gunnarson (1.976)
4) Shea Weber (1.804)
72) PK Suban (0.575)


No other D-man was 1.9 or above, no defence man played as hard minutes as Dion. FACT

Wrong. What this shows is that the Leafs shutdown unit allows more shot attempts than other teams', and that there is a larger discrepancy between the Leafs' top pairing and the rest of their d-men. I mean, surely you wouldn't be using numbers you don't even understand, would you?

PDO - PDO is the sum of a player's on-ice save percentage and on-ice shooting percentage.
1) Carl Gunnarson (1042)
2) Dougie Hamilton (1038)
3) Dion Phaneuf (1037)
12) Zedno Chara (1024)
92) PK Subban (999)

In the simplest possible way hockey is all about scoring goals and preventing goals, if you score more than you let in you win. This stat tells us Dion is among the best at doing what it takes to win games.

No, what that shows you is that the Leafs had top notch goaltending while also being above average in goalscoring.

Off Zone starts - A ratio showing the percentage of a player's non-neutral-zone shifts that were started in the offensive zone. Zone starts use faceoffs as a proxy for all shifts. Players with a ZS% higher than 54% could be considered sheltered or deployed offensively while players with ZS% south of 46% can be considered to be deployed defensively or doing the "heavy lifting".

1) Carl Gunnarson - 38.5%
2) Dion Phaneuf - 38.8%
21) Shea Weber - 43.5%
49) PK Suban - 47.1%

This will also be skewed when you play for a team that gets badly out-possessed.

So lets see Dion faces the toughest opponents (Corsi Rel QOC) logging the most difficult minutes, while scoring and defending (PDO) at a higher rate than almost every d-man in the league, while starting out in a disadvantaged position more than almost any other defender in the league... 3 pretty solid facts ...

This game is fun, now lets see you post some facts that show that Dion is no where near a top defender.... take your time, you'll need it...

Wrong, wrong, and wrong again. Phaneuf faces the same competition as every other top pairing shutdown defenseman. You are comparing stats between teams that are really only good for comparing players on the same team. And when you compare within the team, you find that Phaneuf isn't even the best defenseman, at anything, on his own team.

 

[Confucius]

Wrong. What this shows is that the Leafs shutdown unit allows more shot attempts than other teams', and that there is a larger discrepancy between the Leafs' top pairing and the rest of their d-men. I mean, surely you wouldn't be using numbers you don't even understand, would you?



No, what that shows you is that the Leafs had top notch goaltending while also being above average in goalscoring.



This will also be skewed when you play for a team that gets badly out-possessed.



Wrong, wrong, and wrong again. Phaneuf faces the same competition as every other top pairing shutdown defenseman. You are comparing stats between teams that are really only good for comparing players on the same team. And when you compare within the team, you find that Phaneuf isn't even the best defenseman, at anything, on his own team.

Sock it to em. Show them the light etc. etc.

 

[WillNyeTheHockeyGuy]

Is he that different?

You think the GMs of team Canada would pick a player on some kind of fluke hot streak?

Chemistry was a huge part of why he was there. Why else would a guy like Kunitz make it? Not to discredit Bouwmeester, who's been playing some great hockey, but when you
get to play with Pietrangelo all the time on a great defensive team like St. Louis, I'm sure you'd look great. Bouwmeester IMO, is kind of on the same level of Phaneuf; great D, but not the guy you look to carry you. He's supporting Pietrangelo and doing a wonderful job.

 

[Dragao6]

This is absurd and keeps coming up. Phaneuf is garbage and thats bottom line. Everyone loves stats and loves rating D-men by plus minus, everyone praising phaneuf during season for a +whatever vs other teams top lines....well Phaneuf was -20? in the last stretch and yes vs top lines also. He constantly played vs top lines these last few years and he proved hes garbage!!!

I ignore most stats and watch the games and evaluate on players play on ice. What would be Phaneufs +/- if he wasnt on powerplay?? (sorry this is a bad argument since leafs powerplay also let in so many goals!!! lol).

Hes paid 7M per year for 7 Years...supposedly our captain...yes he should be playing vs other teams top lines AND STOPPING THEM!!!

and Dion is way below Jay B!!! Hence the snub to team canada. I was praying for Jay B to come over when Calgary was going to trade him for nothing but our management was happy with our roster at the time.

 

[yubbers]

Wow Bluelines, you sure gotta dig deep into the stat bag to find something that slightly resembles good with Dion. Keep it simple

Ranking within the 303 dmen in the league

Points: 46th
Goals: 38th with 2 empty nets
Assists: 51st
+/-: 105th
PP Points: 49th
PIM: 3rd in fact he leads the entire league including forwards in minor penalties for 2013

Then there's his playoff resume. He's a professional choke artist. Never been out of a first round, never will be

Saddest thing is, this is like his best year ever. Those stats fine sir, are not of a top defender

 

[ULF_55]

I'll include last years Norris winner and some high profile d-men for a reference point.

Corsi Rel QOC - Defined as the average relative Corsi of opposing players, weighted by head-to-head ice time. A higher value indicates a more difficult opponent to play against.

1) Dion Phaneuf (2.044)
2) Carl Gunnarson (1.976)
4) Shea Weber (1.804)
72) PK Suban (0.575)


No other D-man was 1.9 or above, no defence man played as hard minutes as Dion. FACT

PDO - PDO is the sum of a player's on-ice save percentage and on-ice shooting percentage.
1) Carl Gunnarson (1042)
2) Dougie Hamilton (1038)
3) Dion Phaneuf (1037)
12) Zedno Chara (1024)
92) PK Subban (999)

In the simplest possible way hockey is all about scoring goals and preventing goals, if you score more than you let in you win. This stat tells us Dion is among the best at doing what it takes to win games.

Off Zone starts - A ratio showing the percentage of a player's non-neutral-zone shifts that were started in the offensive zone. Zone starts use faceoffs as a proxy for all shifts. Players with a ZS% higher than 54% could be considered sheltered or deployed offensively while players with ZS% south of 46% can be considered to be deployed defensively or doing the "heavy lifting".

1) Carl Gunnarson - 38.5%
2) Dion Phaneuf - 38.8%
21) Shea Weber - 43.5%
49) PK Suban - 47.1%

So lets see Dion faces the toughest opponents (Corsi Rel QOC) logging the most difficult minutes, while scoring and defending (PDO) at a higher rate than almost every d-man in the league, while starting out in a disadvantaged position more than almost any other defender in the league... 3 pretty solid facts ...

This game is fun, now lets see you post some facts that show that Dion is no where near a top defender.... take your time, you'll need it...

So Gunnarsson and Phaneuf are quite similar here except one of them is being paid incorrectly?!

 

[New Liskeard]

In the last 20 games of the season during the playoff push of March and April Phanuef was a -18 +/-. Which was one of the worst marks of the league.

What that says is that while Phaneuf might have been playing against the opponents top competition, he wasn't doing it very well if the goal was preventing pucks from entering your own net.

Every NHL team has a top pairing that plays against the other teams best players, and this is not contained to only Phaneuf.

Gunnarsson is usual partner was a +12 on the season and lead the Leafs in that category.

What were Dion's numbers and stats up to the Olympic break?

 

[bunjay]

Chemistry was a huge part of why he was there. Why else would a guy like Kunitz make it? Not to discredit Bouwmeester, who's been playing some great hockey, but when you
get to play with Pietrangelo all the time on a great defensive team like St. Louis, I'm sure you'd look great. Bouwmeester IMO, is kind of on the same level of Phaneuf; great D, but not the guy you look to carry you. He's supporting Pietrangelo and doing a wonderful job.

Bouwmeester is a far better skater than Phaneuf. That alone makes him more capable. Phaneuf wasn't even on the radar. Subban barely even played. You're trying too hard to find a reason that Phaneuf is as good as somebody who was selected. He isn't. The top hockey strategists in Canada weren't even considering him. In this case the simplest explanation is the best explanation: even after what was at that point the best hockey of his career Phaneuf was still not at the required level.