Dion Phaneuf. | Part ?? | "There is definitely interest" - Friedman

[RLF]

You don't hear those arguments against Doughty and Kieth and Weber and whoever because they do not play in Toronto.

Media outlets do not care for hockey as much outside of Toronto. All those guys would be crucified in the Toronto spotlight. Its not Phaneufs fault the franchise has been doodoo for nearly 50 years.

Give Phaneuf a good defensive partner while also getting some forwards to actually play defense and you will see an improved Phaneuf. None of our forwards backcheck on a consistent basis. Our forward group is nice to look on the statsheet as goal and assist producers, but not the games won column.

Considering how many people come to Dion's defence...how would "all those guys" get crucified in Toronto?

Wouldn't every d-man on the Leafs benefit from what you just said will make Dion better? Dion is having a solid season, but he is no Doughty, Keith or Weber.

Was Chicago a good team when Keith came into the league? Was LA as good before Doughty? Can you imagine Nash without Weber? especially right after Suter left. I'm not bashing Dion, but he is not up there with the best in the League

 

[Leafin]

Ok... so trade Phaneuf and have Franson as your best defenseman.

McDavid or Eichel come on down!

Without Phaneuf, regardless if you view him as a true "#1" or not, is our best defender. We need more Phaneuf, not less.

Our defense consists of:

Gardiner playing incredibly dumb and inconsistent hockey
Rielly having a pretty average sophomore season
Robidas being a #3-5 defender coming off a major injury at the age of 37
Polak has been a solid defender but is really a guy that should be #4-6
Franson being our best offensive PP option, but not much defense.

That is why this team where it is. I'm not even going to breakdown our forwards.

 

[Leafin]

Move out Franson for a better defensive partner for Phaneuf

Move out Gardiner before his value plummets even more. Bring up Percy who can provide adequate defensive hockey evidenced by his early season play. Gardiner and his 5 points this season can be replaced. Not much of an offensive defenseman when you don't put up points.

 

[RLF]

Ok... so trade Phaneuf and have Franson as your best defenseman.

McDavid or Eichel come on down!

Without Phaneuf, regardless if you view him as a true "#1" or not, is our best defender. We need more Phaneuf, not less.

Our defense consists of:

Gardiner playing incredibly dumb and inconsistent hockey
Rielly having a pretty average sophomore season
Robidas being a #3-5 defender coming off a major injury at the age of 37
Polak has been a solid defender but is really a guy that should be #4-6
Franson being our best offensive PP option, but not much defense.

That is why this team where it is. I'm not even going to breakdown our forwards.

I have been a huge proponent for the D that it is not all their fault and that the forwards are huge in the blame. I didn't say trade Dion and put Franson #1. Franson is a good 4, great 5.

I just get tired of all the
"Dion needs this" "Dion needs that".
"Every other good d-man in the League would be run out of town in Toronto."

It is what it is here, all our d-men are dealing with the same scenario, not just Dion. Plus, no one knows if Weber, Doughty etc would be crap here. These guys helped lead their teams to cups and Chicago and LA were not great before they arrived.

Fans hate it when Dion doesn't get credit, but then turn around and basically knock guys like Doughty, Weber, Keith, saying they aren't that good even though they are widely considered some of the best in the game and have accomplishments that Dion does not.

 

[diceman934]

Move out Franson for a better defensive partner for Phaneuf

Move out Gardiner before his value plummets even more. Bring up Percy who can provide adequate defensive hockey evidenced by his early season play. Gardiner and his 5 points this season can be replaced. Not much of an offensive defenseman when you don't put up points.

Percy had a good few games then played not so good, look at his numbers.


Our best D man over all this year has been Rielly, the time to trade Dion is now as he is on the way down.

 

[Sir Yeti]

I have been a huge proponent for the D that it is not all their fault and that the forwards are huge in the blame. I didn't say trade Dion and put Franson #1. Franson is a good 4, great 5.

I just get tired of all the
"Dion needs this" "Dion needs that".
"Every other good d-man in the League would be run out of town in Toronto."

It is what it is here, all our d-men are dealing with the same scenario, not just Dion. Plus, no one knows if Weber, Doughty etc would be crap here. These guys helped lead their teams to cups and Chicago and LA were not great before they arrived.

Fans hate it when Dion doesn't get credit, but then turn around and basically knock guys like Doughty, Weber, Keith, saying they aren't that good even though they are widely considered some of the best in the game and have accomplishments that Dion does not.

Weird how playing with Dion he has looked like a decent number 2 this year. He looked good on the bottom pairing the year before last and looked like garbage last year in the 3-4, but now playing alongside Dion he looks decent. Phaneuf last partner Gunnar is playing a 4-6 role on the blues and Kostka is about a step away from back in the AHL (he might be now). If anything Phaneuf does make his partners better.

 

[Nithoniniel]

Weird how playing with Dion he has looked like a decent number 2 this year. He looked good on the bottom pairing the year before last and looked like garbage last year in the 3-4, but now playing alongside Dion he looks decent. Phaneuf last partner Gunnar is playing a 4-6 role on the blues and Kostka is about a step away from back in the AHL (he might be now). If anything Phaneuf does make his partners better.

As with most players, he needs to have the right context to succeed. Phaneuf gives Franson the stability he needs to be successful, since we now has a system that helps Cody cut down on the neutral and offensive zone turnovers, and Franson helps Dion with his big weakness, the possession game.

The end result is a decent top pairing.

 

[The Apologist]

I have been a huge proponent for the D that it is not all their fault and that the forwards are huge in the blame. I didn't say trade Dion and put Franson #1. Franson is a good 4, great 5.

I just get tired of all the
"Dion needs this" "Dion needs that".
"Every other good d-man in the League would be run out of town in Toronto."

It is what it is here, all our d-men are dealing with the same scenario, not just Dion. Plus, no one knows if Weber, Doughty etc would be crap here. These guys helped lead their teams to cups and Chicago and LA were not great before they arrived.

Fans hate it when Dion doesn't get credit, but then turn around and basically knock guys like Doughty, Weber, Keith, saying they aren't that good even though they are widely considered some of the best in the game and have accomplishments that Dion does not.

See, this is where you've got it wrong.
Nobody is saying they'd be crap. They're saying that the media and fans would have you believe they were.
And nobody is saying that Weber, Doughty, etc are garbage, were saying Phaneuf is actually that good.
If you could step back and stop associating negative with everything Toronto, you would actually see this.

Phaneuf and Weber are NOT that different.

 

[The Apologist]

Considering how many people come to Dion's defence...how would "all those guys" get crucified in Toronto?

Wouldn't every d-man on the Leafs benefit from what you just said will make Dion better? Dion is having a solid season, but he is no Doughty, Keith or Weber.

Was Chicago a good team when Keith came into the league? Was LA as good before Doughty? Can you imagine Nash without Weber? especially right after Suter left. I'm not bashing Dion, but he is not up there with the best in the League

I would say Toronto minus Phaneuf is a whole lot worse off than Nashville minus Weber.

 

[diceman934]

Weird how playing with Dion he has looked like a decent number 2 this year. He looked good on the bottom pairing the year before last and looked like garbage last year in the 3-4, but now playing alongside Dion he looks decent. Phaneuf last partner Gunnar is playing a 4-6 role on the blues and Kostka is about a step away from back in the AHL (he might be now). If anything Phaneuf does make his partners better.

Gunnar is playing in the same role Dion would be if he was a Blue....that is in the second pair. Dion has not made any of his partners better at all in the last 3 years. Gunnar however proved to have improved Dion's numbers.

 

[diceman934]

I would say Toronto minus Phaneuf is a whole lot worse off than Nashville minus Weber.

Wow the length you go to try to prop up Dion is so funny. Losing Weber Nashville's leading scorer the last two season would kill Nashville. Weber is vastly more important to his team then Dion is to his.

 

[diceman934]

See, this is where you've got it wrong.
Nobody is saying they'd be crap. They're saying that the media and fans would have you believe they were.
And nobody is saying that Weber, Doughty, etc are garbage, were saying Phaneuf is actually that good.
If you could step back and stop associating negative with everything Toronto, you would actually see this.

Phaneuf and Weber are NOT that different.

Only as different as night and day!

 

[hotpaws]

Wow the length you go to try to prop up Dion is so funny. Losing Weber Nashville's leading scorer the last two season would kill Nashville. Weber is vastly more important to his team then Dion is to his.

According to some posters Weber has fooled the entire league into believing he's head and shoulders better than Phaneuf .

I guess it's also media propaganda that he can log much greater mins and produce at a higher rate offensively while also being on a lower scoring team . The collective lengths the league will go to knock Dion , from keeping poor Dion off the Olympic team as well as not receiving anywhere near the votes Weber does in Norris voting it just shows the anti Phaneuf bias the league has .

 

[Nithoniniel]

A lot of discussion about Phaneuf as a comparable to Weber. After making a quick comparison of their overall statistics for the last five years, this is what I have found:

* Their deployment is almost equal, with a slight edge to Weber.
* In those minutes, Weber has been more productive.
* He's been a much better possession player.
* His GF/GA-ratio in comparison to his team is better.
* His SH numbers are better.
* He's been a bigger factor on the PP.
* He's had more competent partners overall.

As much of these numbers as possible are looked at both in general and as a comparison to the team.

Of course they are similar as D-men who are human like everybody else. Both of them are overall strong D-men who have a weakness when it comes to the possession game, and it's hard to say to what degree (Weber has much better numbers, but has always had the perfect partner in Suter and now Josi.) Of course Weber makes mistakes just like Dion does, and I'm sure we'd have people on here that would crucify him as well. When making a comparison there is a very clear difference statistically though.

 

[Warden of the North]

Dion is a 1d. Is he a superstar? No. Hes a solid 1d who hasnt had a solid 2d the whole time hes been here. Beauchemin was the closest but Wilson ruined him.

 

[Gallagbi]

Percy had a good few games then played not so good, look at his numbers.


Our best D man over all this year has been Rielly, the time to trade Dion is now as he is on the way down.

He really hasn't been better than Phaneuf, Franson or Polak.

 

[The Apologist]

I can't believe I have to explain this, but here we go.
At the end of each season, members of the Professional Hockey Writers' Association vote to determine the player who was the best defenseman during the regular season.
In other words, humans, most of which know just as much about hockey as you and I, who probably watch just as much of the out of town teams as you and I, with biases, opinions and pre conceived notions, just like you and I.

Now, I am absolutely certain that everyone claiming that Phaneuf will honestly admit to how thoroughly they watch the other defenseman play (I'm assuming it's nearly every game since they're speaking in absolutes).

I'm stating, without doubt, that in my honest opinion, watching both Phaneuf and Weber nearly 82 games a year, they are VERY similar.
There is also no doubt in my mind that in the system Nashville plays, they would survive a whole lot better without Weber than the Leafs would without Phaneuf.

Remember when losing Suter would spell the end in Nashville?

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

So Poor Dion needs a better partner and a better team and then he will look good in another market as the media is at fault for his poor play as well.....got it!

There's been lots of players in recent years who play on lower lines and get bumped higher elsewhere with the opposite happening for those coming here. Like or lump it, bell curves say a lot.

 

[Nithoniniel]

I can't believe I have to explain this, but here we go.
At the end of each season, members of the Professional Hockey Writers' Association vote to determine the player who was the best defenseman during the regular season.
In other words, humans, most of which know just as much about hockey as you and I, who probably watch just as much of the out of town teams as you and I, with biases, opinions and pre conceived notions, just like you and I.

Now, I am absolutely certain that everyone claiming that Phaneuf will honestly admit to how thoroughly they watch the other defenseman play (I'm assuming it's nearly every game since they're speaking in absolutes).

I'm stating, without doubt, that in my honest opinion, watching both Phaneuf and Weber nearly 82 games a year, they are VERY similar.
There is also no doubt in my mind that in the system Nashville plays, they would survive a whole lot better without Weber than the Leafs would without Phaneuf.

Remember when losing Suter would spell the end in Nashville?

None of that have anything to do with what I brought up. I already brought up that Weber stands out more against his teammates than Phaneuf does, even while playing on a team with generally better D-men, so the team angle doesn't really work either.

As for system, Nashville doesn't play the same system this year and Weber looks the same.

As for Suter, that doesn't really say much for your point, does it? Their next best D-man leaves and Weber continues as before, with his new partner stepping in rather seamlessly.

I'm not trying to discount your opinion here. All opinions are subjective after all. It's just that the stats doesn't really support it.

 

[The Apologist]

None of that have anything to do with what I brought up. I already brought up that Weber stands out more against his teammates than Phaneuf does, even while playing on a team with generally better D-men, so the team angle doesn't really work either.

As for system, Nashville doesn't play the same system this year and Weber looks the same.

As for Suter, that doesn't really say much for your point, does it? Their next best D-man leaves and Weber continues as before, with his new partner stepping in rather seamlessly.

I'm not trying to discount your opinion here. All opinions are subjective after all. It's just that the stats doesn't really support it.

Nashville still plays a very tight game and it's forwards are still very responsible.

Again I'm not claiming that Phaneuf is as good as or better, I'm claiming they are actually very similar defenseman in style. Weber is not lightyears better and would be absolutely crucified in Toronto in our system. (A system that no defenseman should ever be subjected to)

And no, it's actually very telling that a team can lose a player of Suter's caliber and still be so good.

Were that to happen here, our defense would be an absolute joke.

I love both weber and dion. Crazy skilled guys.

 

[Nithoniniel]

Nashville still plays a very tight game and it's forwards are still very responsible.

Again I'm not claiming that Phaneuf is as good as or better, I'm claiming they are actually very similar defenseman in style. Weber is not lightyears better and would be absolutely crucified in Toronto in our system. (A system that no defenseman should ever be subjected to)

And no, it's actually very telling that a team can lose a player of Suter's caliber and still be so good.

Were that to happen here, our defense would be an absolute joke.

I love both weber and dion. Crazy skilled guys.

Now I can agree with you. I too think they are similar in style, and I also think that Toronto would be the wrong kind of team for a guy like Weber. I wouldn't say Weber is lightyears better either, I just think there is a distinct difference.

 

[RLF]

Weird how playing with Dion he has looked like a decent number 2 this year. He looked good on the bottom pairing the year before last and looked like garbage last year in the 3-4, but now playing alongside Dion he looks decent. Phaneuf last partner Gunnar is playing a 4-6 role on the blues and Kostka is about a step away from back in the AHL (he might be now). If anything Phaneuf does make his partners better.

Weird how Fraser, Franson's partner who looked good with Franson, isn't even in the NHL anymore. Phaneuf is also off to his best start as a Leaf with Franson as his partner. Gunnar is getting more and more ice each game in STL and putting up similar numbers he put up with Dion. It can be looked at whatever way someone chooses

 

[diceman934]

Now I can agree with you. I too think they are similar in style, and I also think that Toronto would be the wrong kind of team for a guy like Weber. I wouldn't say Weber is lightyears better either, I just think there is a distinct difference.

light years better.
One leads his team, the other drags his team down...
Dion can not even out score Franson and Weber has out scored his whole team the past two years.....the difference is vast....and should not be compared in any way other then they both play the same position and sport.
.

 

[RLF]

See, this is where you've got it wrong.
Nobody is saying they'd be crap. They're saying that the media and fans would have you believe they were.
And nobody is saying that Weber, Doughty, etc are garbage, were saying Phaneuf is actually that good.
If you could step back and stop associating negative with everything Toronto, you would actually see this.

Phaneuf and Weber are NOT that different.

I am not the one associating negativity with Toronto...I am saying they WOULD be good defencemen here and you're defending those who say they would be crap even if they aren't actually. You are the one arguing that Weber would not be as good in Toronto...and I am the one associating negativity in Toronto?

 

[RLF]

I can't believe I have to explain this, but here we go.
At the end of each season, members of the Professional Hockey Writers' Association vote to determine the player who was the best defenseman during the regular season.
In other words, humans, most of which know just as much about hockey as you and I, who probably watch just as much of the out of town teams as you and I, with biases, opinions and pre conceived notions, just like you and I.

Now, I am absolutely certain that everyone claiming that Phaneuf will honestly admit to how thoroughly they watch the other defenseman play (I'm assuming it's nearly every game since they're speaking in absolutes).

I'm stating, without doubt, that in my honest opinion, watching both Phaneuf and Weber nearly 82 games a year, they are VERY similar.
There is also no doubt in my mind that in the system Nashville plays, they would survive a whole lot better without Weber than the Leafs would without Phaneuf.

Remember when losing Suter would spell the end in Nashville?

Bolded. Yet somehow, you can say with certainty Phaneuf and Weber are very similar and the Leafs would suffer more from losing Dion than Nash would be losing Weber. I am not claiming Dion is not a solid D, he is...but he is no Weber.imo

Systems help players for sure, but Dion has had a higher quality of offensive players to play with (especially on the PP) than Weber in a more offensive system. Would that not tend to Dion having higher offensive numbers? But he doesn't. I will agree to disagree with you on Weber being better and by how much.