Dion Phaneuf discussion thread

[The_Chosen_One]

And near the bottom in Corsi. Why does everyone ignore Corsi but talk about Quality of competition?

He was largely planted on the DEFENSIVE zone. When you in your own zone, CORSI differentials are going to be higher. Look at Shea Weber:

ON ICE CORSI: -7.41
OFF ICE CORSI: -5.30

Possession of puck decreases when Weber is on ice. That is understandable, because he's usually starting in the defensive zone. You'd hope that players planted in the offensive zone can drive possession better.

In comparison to Phaneuf, he's up against weaker competition. That is QoC weighed by opposition's R CORSI metric, which is the most accurate indicator. Simply put, Phaneuf is going up against competition tends to be the possession monsters on their team. On the other hand, Weber may be taking on similar QoC, but they're not the possession monsters on their team. Actually, the relative CORSI of Phaneuf's opposition is significantly greater than Shea Weber. The two players aren't even being utilized in the same manner.

As stated before, this isn't Dragon Ball Z! If Weber could be utilized in the same manner as Phaneuf, produce similar numbers and win games, it'd be done. You don't hold back players especially someone as as expensive as Shea Weber. We'll most likely be resigning Phaneuf and giving him a slight salary upgrade as well. He is clearly a #1D that needs to either be partner with a puck mover or someone who can replicate his role.

 

[Kyle Doobas*]

He was largely planted on the DEFENSIVE zone. When you in your own zone, CORSI differentials are going to be higher. Look at Shea Weber:

ON ICE CORSI: -7.41
OFF ICE CORSI: -5.30

Possession of puck decreases when Weber is on ice. That is understandable, because he's usually starting in the defensive zone. You'd hope that players planted in the offensive zone can drive possession better.

In comparison to Phaneuf, he's up against weaker competition. That is QoC weighed by opposition's R CORSI metric, which is the most accurate indicator. Simply put, Phaneuf is going up against competition tends to be the possession monsters on their team. On the other hand, Weber may be taking on similar QoC, but they're not the possession monsters on their team. Actually, the relative CORSI of Phaneuf's opposition is significantly greater than Shea Weber. The two players aren't even being utilized in the same manner.

As stated before, this isn't Dragon Ball Z! If Weber could be utilized in the same manner as Phaneuf, produce similar numbers and win games, it'd be done. You don't hold back players especially someone as as expensive as Shea Weber. We'll most likely be resigning Phaneuf and giving him a slight salary upgrade as well. He is clearly a #1D that needs to either be partner with a puck mover or someone who can replicate his role.

Good post Chosen One. Also something to add is that Phaneuf had the lowest Rel. Corsi Quality of Teammates amongst defensemen on our team as well outside of Holzer - so not only is he often out against the opposition's best possession players, but also with our team's worst possession players. Having a positive Corsi rating under those circumstances would've been a miracle for any defenseman.

 

[number72]

Those corsi stats don't look good. That is like saying Kessel didn't score because he was playing against tough competition like Chara. But Kessel did score against tough competition in the playoffs. Phaneuf has still not shown he can play at the top level

 

[Lebanese Leaf]

Those corsi stats don't look good. That is like saying Kessel didn't score because he was playing against tough competition like Chara. But Kessel did score against tough competition in the playoffs. Phaneuf has still not shown he can play at the top level

He shut down Marchand-Bergeron-Seguin all series long, and did a better job than anyone on the Rangers or Penguins (especially on Seguin).

 

[officialmark7*]

Phaneuf starts to suck when playing to many minutes, Gardiner looked way better than him this playoffs, offensively, and after his first game, defensively. He's obviously a decent player, but if you can get a younger shutdown D-Man for him, you do it. We already have two better offensive D-Men coming through the system. If you can't get an elite shutdown D-Man, you keep him, and try to find a way to keep his minutes under 20.

 

[The_Chosen_One]

Those corsi stats don't look good. That is like saying Kessel didn't score because he was playing against tough competition like Chara. But Kessel did score against tough competition in the playoffs. Phaneuf has still not shown he can play at the top level

Do you even know what you're talking about? The CORSI difference is negative, because he is planted against tougher competition than Shea Weber ( who also is negative) in the DEFENSIVE zone. I'd expect more defending than attacking if one starts in the defensive zone.

Using CORSI standalone demonstrates poor understanding of the game. His relative CORSI ( vs linemates) is greatest amongst defenceman suggesting that he's paired with possession poor defenceman. Remember, he's not exactly an elite puck mover either. In addition, his quality of competition weighed by relative CORSI of his competition is top 5 in the NHL amongst defenceman. That means that he's taking on the top line possession positive monsters in the defensive zone and succeeds.

How do I know that? Because his offensive zone finish is greater than his offensive zone starts. More so, he is producing at a top ten rate offensively as well. All of that is up against top competition which is not how Karlsson is utilized.

 

[Tie Domi Esquire]

Leafs need a true number 1 like Letang.

 

[The_Chosen_One]

Phaneuf starts to suck when playing to many minutes, Gardiner looked way better than him this playoffs, offensively, and after his first game, defensively. He's obviously a decent player, but if you can get a younger shutdown D-Man for him, you do it. We already have two better offensive D-Men coming through the system. If you can't get an elite shutdown D-Man, you keep him, and try to find a way to keep his minutes under 20.

Gardiner was sheltered. If he was up against tougher quality of competition, he would start in the opposition zone after we've establish possession. In other words, he is being used as an offensive puck rusher, because that's what he does best.

Both are very different players. Gardiner is a much better puck mover, but Phaneuf is better taking critical starts and represents a scoring threat on the blue line. If both were on another team, they'd be used in the same manner unless their coach is a total idiot. Gardiner is a great skater, but his defensive coverage is really spotty and that's why he'll continued to be sheltered. Karlsson has a 60/40 offensive/defensive zone start as does Pietrangelo, and many others. There is nothing wrong with utilizing a defenceman in that manner as long as it produces good results.

 

[The_Chosen_One]

Leafs need a true number 1 like Letang.

......

 

[rumman]

Gardiner was sheltered. If he was up against tougher quality of competition, he would start in the opposition zone after we've establish possession. In other words, he is being used as an offensive puck rusher, because that's what he does best.

Both are very different players. Gardiner is a much better puck mover, but Phaneuf is better taking critical starts and represents a scoring threat on the blue line. If both were on another team, they'd be used in the same manner unless their coach is a total idiot. Gardiner is a great skater, but his defensive coverage is really spotty and that's why he'll continued to be sheltered. Karlsson has a 60/40 offensive/defensive zone start as does Pietrangelo, and many others. There is nothing wrong with utilizing a defenceman in that manner as long as it produces good results.

to be honest, we don't know how Gardiner would fair playing against higher calibre players or more minutes, because he hasn't had a chance to prove what he can do in these situations. Personally I think he'd fair better than expected, and combined with his youth and skill wouldn't trade him unless for a Pejorative Slured overpayment. Dion has value, is a blue chip player to be packaged for the stud centre the Leafs dearly need.

 

[notdoneyet]

He shut down Marchand-Bergeron-Seguin all series long, and did a better job than anyone on the Rangers or Penguins (especially on Seguin).

Gardiner showed he will someday be a good offensive dman.

On the game series winning goal he put it right on the stick of bergeron instead of just knocking the puck in the corner.

No one other than Phaneuf right now can play night in and night out against
the best of the other teams forwards.

If we get rid of Phaneuf we will not make the playoffs for another 2-3 years
while we wait and hope that our young d can be as good.

 

[KlattNazty]

Gardiner showed he will someday be a good offensive dman.

On the game series winning goal he put it right on the stick of bergeron instead of just knocking the puck in the corner.

No one other than Phaneuf right now can play night in and night out against
the best of the other teams forwards.

If we get rid of Phaneuf we will not make the playoffs for another 2-3 years
while we wait and hope that our young d can be as good.

No idea why other people dont see this. Its just true lol.

Gardiner does look great though, and many of his mistakes have to do with what is still a relatively frail body and inexperience.

I think its possible he continues to gain some muscle, not expecting anything major, and iron out plenty of his issues. I still like Gardiner as a #3 more than I do as a #2 at this point.

 

[Bomber0104]

Gardiner showed he will someday be a good offensive dman.

On the game series winning goal he put it right on the stick of bergeron instead of just knocking the puck in the corner.

No one other than Phaneuf right now can play night in and night out against
the best of the other teams forwards.

If we get rid of Phaneuf we will not make the playoffs for another 2-3 years
while we wait and hope that our young d can be as good.

Just because Phaneuf can play top pairing minutes doesn't mean he should or is good at it.

 

[The_Chosen_One]

to be honest, we don't know how Gardiner would fair playing against higher calibre players or more minutes, because he hasn't had a chance to prove what he can do in these situations. Personally I think he'd fair better than expected, and combined with his youth and skill wouldn't trade him unless for a Pejorative Slured overpayment. Dion has value, is a blue chip player to be packaged for the stud centre the Leafs dearly need.

Coaches aren't going to intentionally hold a player back when it comes to defensive duties. Besides, his defensive zone coverage is spotty even against softer competition. I don't think it makes sense placing him up against top competition and limit his production.

Most offensive defenceman in the NHL are utilized offensively throughout their career. That is just the nature of the game. Not many play well on both ends. Phaneuf isn't a great puck mover so we have Gardiner for that. He'll start 55-60% of his starts in the offensive zone and up against softer talent.

I like the Gardiner - Franson pairing, because Gard is covered defensively and has someone who represents a scoring threat from the point. However, Phaneuf needs someone who can move the puck better. His first pass isn't bad, but it'd be nice to have someone who can move the puck better.

 

[Bomber0104]

What has been obvious for what's going on four years is that we need a better defenceman than Phaneuf to succeed, and we need a better forward than Kessel to succeed.

Since we've earmarked Kessel and Phaneuf as our core guys, that basically means the Leafs won't have an ability to bring those valuable pieces in...not while they are mired in mediocrity and tying up huge portions of their limited capspace to players that choke.

 

[The_Chosen_One]

What has been obvious for what's going on four years is that we need a better defenceman than Phaneuf to succeed, and we need a better forward than Kessel to succeed.

Since we've earmarked Kessel and Phaneuf as our core guys, that basically means the Leafs won't have an ability to bring those valuable pieces in...not while they are mired in mediocrity and tying up huge portions of their limited capspace to players that choke.

Again a bankrupt post by someone who probably has a difficult time watching the game. There is very little indication by Tim Lieweke or Dave Nonis that we're going to be rebuilding our team. The core is essential in place, and that especially includes Kessel and Phaneuf.

This isn't "advanced stats" vs "watching the actual game". I am certain that those who claim "watch" the game are probably on EA NHL instead. Poor understanding of line management, how shifts work, possession positive hockey, and sheltering.

 

[rumman]

Coaches aren't going to intentionally hold a player back when it comes to defensive duties. Besides, his defensive zone coverage is spotty even against softer competition. I don't think it makes sense placing him up against top competition and limit his production.

Most offensive defenceman in the NHL are utilized offensively throughout their career. That is just the nature of the game. Not many play well on both ends. Phaneuf isn't a great puck mover so we have Gardiner for that. He'll start 55-60% of his starts in the offensive zone and up against softer talent.

I like the Gardiner - Franson pairing, because Gard is covered defensively and has someone who represents a scoring threat from the point. However, Phaneuf needs someone who can move the puck better. His first pass isn't bad, but it'd be nice to have someone who can move the puck better.

I wasn't suggesting Gardiner be put into the top pairing, just stating that we don't know how he'd do.

 

[Bomber0104]

There is very little indication by Tim Lieweke or Dave Nonis that we're going to be rebuilding our team. The core is essential in place, and that especially includes Kessel and Phaneuf.

The core that just pulled off one of the most historical chokes in hockey ever?

Color me less than thrilled that we're going to be seeing a lot more of these bozos in the same roles going forward, but more expensive, without a legitimate plan to improve beyond the capabilities of what any other team can also do.

 

[Duffman955]

Leafs need a true number 1 like Letang.

Yup we need someone who can't QB a power play or play in his own end.

 

[ULF_55]

It would be nice to get a better defender than Phaneuf.

It would be easier just to get some NHL capable defenders to relieve Phaneuf of the ice time he's been playing.

Phaneuf - ?
Gunnarsson - Gardiner
? - Franson

Perhaps in another year:

Phaneuf - Rielly
Gunnarsson - Gardiner
Granberg - Franson

 

[notdoneyet]

The core that just pulled off one of the most historical chokes in hockey ever?

Color me less than thrilled that we're going to be seeing a lot more of these bozos in the same roles going forward, but more expensive, without a legitimate plan to improve beyond the capabilities of what any other team can also do.

If your less than thrilled then maybe you should pick another team to be a fan of.

We know by now your dislike for phaneuf and kessel so my suggestion is
go be a fan of pittsburgh and you can be a fan of crosby and letang both
of whom by the way played worse against boston than our two bums.

As far as the most historical choke I would think that a team being up 3-0
in games and then losing 4 in a row(Boston) is a lot worse than losing a lead in
one game and losing the series in game 7. But thats just my opinion.

When we get rid of phaneuf and kessel for draft picks what happens 3 or 4 years from now when they become as good(Maybe) as phil and dion. do we then trade them for more draft picks. Rinse and repeat.

Whether you like it or not Nonis and management, will ultimately decide
who the core is going forward.

If we cannot sign dion or phil then thats a different ball game. Nonis will know in plenty of time whether we can sign them and will act accordingly.

 

[Diatomic]

I'm not the biggest fan of Phaneuf but I respect that he does the dirty work for him team.

If he can minimize his bone-head plays and truly become a shut-down D-man he will have much more success.

 

[Daisy Jane]

If your less than thrilled then maybe you should pick another team to be a fan of.

We know by now your dislike for phaneuf and kessel so my suggestion is
go be a fan of pittsburgh and you can be a fan of crosby and letang both
of whom by the way played worse against boston than our two bums.

As far as the most historical choke I would think that a team being up 3-0
in games and then losing 4 in a row(Boston) is a lot worse than losing a lead in
one game and losing the series in game 7. But thats just my opinion.

When we get rid of phaneuf and kessel for draft picks what happens 3 or 4 years from now when they become as good(Maybe) as phil and dion. do we then trade them for more draft picks. Rinse and repeat.

Whether you like it or not Nonis and management, will ultimately decide
who the core is going forward.

If we cannot sign dion or phil then thats a different ball game. Nonis will know in plenty of time whether we can sign them and will act accordingly.

I've been saying this for weeks.
the Leafs blew a 4-1 lead. that's bad.
the Leafs got scored on with an empty net... that's aggravating.

but it's not like it's never happened before. the only reason why it sucks is that Boston is in the finals now. If Boston got blown out by New York or Pittsburgh, people would have just let it go. Or it would have been, "Oh, the Leafs screwed up, but Boston is eliminated too."

the Phil thing is interesting because, again he has a no trade that kicks in this summer - I don't know when we can "officially" extend Phil's contract, but I think Nonis and Phil's people will start talking to see, because if we can't extend him, I am all for trading. (as I've mentioned: it's not because I like new shiny players - we can not afford to let our best players go for nothing. if he stays, then by all means give him the long contract, and i'm all for it.).

 

[7even]

Phaneuf starts to suck when playing to many minutes, Gardiner looked way better than him this playoffs, offensively, and after his first game, defensively. He's obviously a decent player, but if you can get a younger shutdown D-Man for him, you do it. We already have two better offensive D-Men coming through the system. If you can't get an elite shutdown D-Man, you keep him, and try to find a way to keep his minutes under 20.

So you're saying Gardiner and Rielly are both going to average over 47 points a season?

 

[nuck]

Phaneuf starts to suck when playing to many minutes, Gardiner looked way better than him this playoffs, offensively, and after his first game, defensively. He's obviously a decent player, but if you can get a younger shutdown D-Man for him, you do it. We already have two better offensive D-Men coming through the system. If you can't get an elite shutdown D-Man, you keep him, and try to find a way to keep his minutes under 20.

The way to fix his game isn't to limit his icetime. His absolute best season of 07-08 in Calgary he had 60 points and was +12 on a club that only scored 2 more goals than allowed. He was credited with fewer giveaways than takeaways and did this playing over 26 minutes a night which was 5 minutes TOI more than their next busiest D man. He had 10 majors that season and had 263 SOG.

That wasn't a 22 year old kid running around, he had an all star caliber year on a club that would have been weak without him. They need to get him to start playing like he did then. They need to find a Regehr type partner for him. Similar offense to Gunnar but will fight on occasion, and with a slight nasty streak. The lack of a physical edge is why Gunnar is not a long term fix, nor Franson. Aulie had no skills at all but was solid beside Dion for 40 games. That can't be so hard to find. And he has to start shooting the puck more. Less than 2 shots per game this season.