Confirmed with Link: Dillon Dube takes leave from Calgary Flames (TSN reports he's been asked to Surrender to London ON Police)

[InfinityIggy]

Strong language here. There was lots of egg on face here, saying ppl need to be embarrassed after being upset for being misled is rich.


No one has said this. The next time a mental health statement is issued however, there will certainly be people who will “not believe it” because of this incident unfortunately.

No one was "misled". People took it upon themselves to jump to conclusions about the organization despite knowing nothing about why the Flames released the message that they did. Embarrassed is the perfect word.

If you joined the mob, you ought to feel embarrassed for doing so frankly.

 

[super6646]

No one was "misled". People took it upon themselves to jump to conclusions about the organization despite knowing nothing about why the Flames released the message that they did. Embarrassed is the perfect word.

If you joined the mob, you ought to feel embarrassed for doing so frankly.

Unfortunately, I don't feel embarrassed for being a little upset about the initial statement by the team. It wasn't the end of the world, but I certainly don't think careful wording would've hurt in this case. If that makes me part of the "mob" in your eyes so be it, can't help that.

 

[InfinityIggy]

Unfortunately, I don't feel embarrassed for being a little upset about the initial statement by the team. It wasn't the end of the world, but I certainly don't think careful wording would've hurt in this case. If that makes me part of the "mob" in your eyes so be it, can't help that.

Have you considered that I'm not speaking to your posts in particular? I am replying to you because you have some issue with my response. There were people who posted in the thread besides yourself who took great issue with the organization (as well throughout the wider internet).

If you felt like my statement reflected on yourself, that's for you to ponder why.

 

[super6646]

Have you considered that I'm not speaking to your posts in particular? I am replying to you because you have some issue with my response. There were people who posted in the thread besides yourself who took great issue with the organization.

If you felt like my statement reflected on yourself, that's for you to ponder why.

Not at all, I was just replying to your point "If you joined the mob, you ought to feel embarrassed for doing so frankly." You brought the "I" and implication into this, but it is clear you meant more than one person originally up until that point.

Anyways I just didn't think there was need for such strong language quite frankly, that was about it. We'll never 100% know what the team knew, and if the statements by the team and NHL satisfy you that's totally fine.

 

[InfinityIggy]

Not at all, I was just replying to your point "If you joined the mob, you ought to feel embarrassed for doing so frankly." You brought the "I" and implication into this, but it is clear you meant more than one person.

Notice the word "If" that you bolded?

 

[super6646]

Notice the word "If" that you bolded?

I did notice, but that doesn't remove the intentionality of placing the statement there to begin with.

 

[InfinityIggy]

I did notice, but that doesn't remove the intentionality of placing the statement there to begin with.

Yes I did intentionally write the statement. "If" is the first part of the statement. Not sure what point you're trying to make.

You clearly took my initial post personally based on your replies. I'm not interested in arguing semantics with you any further.

 

[super6646]

Yes I did intentionally write the statement. "If" is the first part of the statement. Not sure what point you're trying to make.

You clearly took my initial post personally based on your replies. I'm not interested in arguing semantics with you any further.

Sure, not a very hard conclusion to come to. I just felt the language was unnecessarily strong, especially when people felt misled in the heat of the moment. They were just doing the same thing the Flames org did after all, coming to wrongful conclusions based on a lack of info ( and that is if you take the statements by Bettman and the organization as 100% truthful).

 

[InfinityIggy]

Sure, not a very hard conclusion to come to. I just felt the language was unnecessarily strong, especially when people felt misled in the heat of the moment.

Given that it's pretty self evident some very misguided "strong language" was used in regards to the organization, I am not inclined to agree in this case.

 

[Lunatik]

@InfinityIggy is 100% right.

 

[Mobiandi]

and that is if you take the statements by Bettman and the organization as 100% truthful

At a turbulent time for Hockey Canada and the NHL, chapter 1 of any PR textbook will say to avoid further damage and media fallout. (Chapter 2 is misdirection: see all the conveniently timed expansion news, the sudden Olympics and 4 nations showdown annoucement).

It’s best to focus on the wins, as few and far between as they may seem, when it comes to changing the culture. Is anyone truly surprised that an internal investigation would yield this conclusion? It’s really not a result to hang one’s hat on with how easy it is for organizations to systematically absolve themselves of any responsibility.

 

[super6646]

At a turbulent time for Hockey Canada and the NHL, chapter 1 of any PR textbook will say to avoid further damage and media fallout. (Chapter 2 is misdirection: see all the conveniently timed expansion news, the sudden Olympics and 4 nations showdown annoucement).

It’s best to focus on the wins, as few and far between as they may seem, when it comes to changing the culture. Is anyone truly surprised that an internal investigation would yield this conclusion? It’s really not a result to hang one’s hat on with how easy it is for organizations to systematically absolve themselves of any responsibility.

Fair points all around.

 

[InfinityIggy]

At a turbulent time for Hockey Canada and the NHL, chapter 1 of any PR textbook will say to avoid further damage and media fallout. (Chapter 2 is misdirection: see all the conveniently timed expansion news, the sudden Olympics and 4 nations showdown annoucement).

It’s best to focus on the wins, as few and far between as they may seem, when it comes to changing the culture. Is anyone truly surprised that an internal investigation would yield this conclusion? It’s really not a result to hang one’s hat on with how easy it is for organizations to systematically absolve themselves of any responsibility.

This kind of argument would be dramatically more compelling if anyone could present a shred of evidence that the Flames knew what you are not so subtly accusing them of knowing.

All I've read anywhere is a bunch of conjecture that they "must've known" with no further compelling evidence, even circumstantial.

The problem is that you cannot disprove a negative, that's what the Flames are being pressed to do here with statements like the bolded.

 

[super6646]

This kind of argument would be dramatically more compelling if anyone could present a shred of evidence that the Flames knew what you are not so subtly accusing them of knowing.

All I've read anywhere is a bunch of conjecture that they "must've known" with no further compelling evidence, even circumstantial.

The problem is that you cannot disprove a negative, that's what the Flames are being pressed to do here with statements like the bolded.

There is evidence out there to cast doubt the org had no idea though, perhaps most compellingly that other organizations had some idea as to their players involvement (Philly and Ottawa) and the speculation that floated around in the days prior about Dube. As for the organization knowing charges were coming in the days ahead, that’s a harder link to prove and I agree there isn’t enough there. Plausible deniability certainly holds. I don’t think the intentions were malignant either way regardless of what happened (that they were coveting dube’s ass), but it’s a bad look nevertheless.

Whether that’s compelling enough to cast doubt is up to you (I assume in your case it isn’t).

 

[InfinityIggy]

There’s enough evidence out there to cast doubt the org had no idea, perhaps most compellingly that other organizations had some idea as to their players involvement (Philly and Ottawa) and the speculation that floated around in the days prior. As for the organization knowing charges were coming in the days ahead, that’s a harder link to prove and I agree there isn’t enough there.

Whether that’s compelling enough to cast doubt is up to you (I assume in your case it isn’t).

Lets hear some then.

It's not compelling because those players announced their leaves days after Dube was announced to be leaving. The conjecture that Dube was leaving for reasons related to the investigation did not even start until after Hart announced he was also stepping away. You can even see the evidence of that in the threads on HF and elsewhere on the internet.

If the Flames had made the same statement after other players had already stepped away then yes, that would be somewhat compelling. Given the opposite is the case though, no.

 

[super6646]

Lets hear some then.

It's not compelling because those players announced their leaves days after Dube was announced to be leaving. The conjecture that Dube was leaving for reasons related to the investigation did not even start until after Hart announced he was also stepping away. You can even see the evidence of that in the threads on HF and elsewhere on the internet.

If the Flames had made the same statement after other players had already stepped away then yes, that would be somewhat compelling. Given the opposite is the case though, no.

I’ve just said it, that Formington was forced out of the league despite being a rather good player and the speculation about Philly trying to trade hart and teams not biting (there was an athletic quote I saw where Montreal said “they wouldn’t go there” or something along those lines). Other teams knew about their guys but calgary didn’t? You’re right, there is no smoking gun, and the only direct link to Calgary was 2 posters on Calgarypuck claiming they heard in advance from ppl around the organization (one of the posts was removed by mods and was made before the hart leave, the other stated they heard this beforehand after the fact that he was being charged was released) that the leave had to do with the investigation.

That’s enough to cast just a little doubt for me. In terms of imminent charges, perhaps they didn’t know. The potential of dube being charged though? I have a hard time believing that. But fine, if you think that’s just not enough, I don’t blame ya.

 

[Mobiandi]

even circumstantial

It was already mentioned in this thread that John Bean’s son was on that team.

Danny Briere shopping Hart in the summer and GMs not being interested

The problem is that you cannot disprove a negative

Precisely why it’s so difficult to make any changes to the status quo in the most damaging aspects of sports culture. It’s genuinely a miracle that this case is even heading to trial

 

[InfinityIggy]

It was already mentioned in this thread that John Bean’s son was on that team.

Danny Briere shopping Hart in the summer and GMs not being interested

Precisely why it’s so difficult to make any changes to the status quo in the most damaging aspects of sports culture. It’s genuinely a miracle that this case is even heading to trial

How is that evidence that the flames knew Dube was going to be charged in the investigation though?

Teams not being interested in Hart is a reasonable piece of evidence, yes. Again though it doesn't speak to what the Flames knew about Dube.

 

[InfinityIggy]

I’ve just said it, that Formington was forced out of the league despite being a rather good player and the speculation about Philly trying to trade hart and teams not biting (there was an athletic quote I saw where Montreal said “they wouldn’t go there” or something along those lines). Other teams knew about their guys but calgary didn’t? You’re right, there is no smoking gun, and the only direct link to Calgary was 2 posters on Calgarypuck claiming they heard in advance from ppl around the organization (one of the posts was removed by mods and was made before the hart leave, the other stated they heard this beforehand after the fact that he was being charged was released) that the leave had to do with the investigation.

That’s enough to cast just a little doubt for me. In terms of imminent charges, perhaps they didn’t know. The potential of dube being charged though? I have a hard time believing that. But fine, if you think that’s just not enough, I don’t blame ya.

Formenton being let go speaks to what Ottawa knew about Formenton. Not what the Flames knew about Dube, and more importantly about Dube potentially being charged.

Same for Hart.

This is what so many do not seem to understand: There is a difference between knowing an investigation exists, and knowing who is involved and to what extent. There are many players involved in the investigation, who were not charged.

NJ signed 2 players who ultimately were charged, after the investigation began. Yet, I do not see anyone making the argument that NJ should've known better, that they could've known they would be charged with anything. Why is that?

 

[Lunatik]

This kind of argument would be dramatically more compelling if anyone could present a shred of evidence that the Flames knew what you are not so subtly accusing them of knowing.

All I've read anywhere is a bunch of conjecture that they "must've known" with no further compelling evidence, even circumstantial.

The problem is that you cannot disprove a negative, that's what the Flames are being pressed to do here with statements like the bolded.

Fans making assumptions without evidence is their proof. "We knew it, so they should have"

 

[Lunatik]

To add to my last post, it's f***ing hilarious that the RUMOR that no one wanting Carter Hart because of this is believed by people, even though it took how many months to come out? The talk on the summer was the cost was too high.

Yet they ignore a more reliable source in Friedman because it doesn't fit their narrative

 

[Ace Rimmer]

Let's all be mad at the London police instead. If this doesn't take six years to get to this point, it's not even an issue for today, and the Flames just release him in like 2019 instead, if he's found guilty.

 

[Lunatik]

Let's all be mad at the London police instead. If this doesn't take six years to get to this point, it's not even an issue for today, and the Flames just release him in like 2019 instead, if he's found guilty.

100%

Be mad at inept police. Blame piece of shit human beings. Hope EM finally gets the justice she deserves.

 

[Fig]

I’ve just said it, that Formington was forced out of the league despite being a rather good player and the speculation about Philly trying to trade hart and teams not biting (there was an athletic quote I saw where Montreal said “they wouldn’t go there” or something along those lines). Other teams knew about their guys but calgary didn’t? You’re right, there is no smoking gun, and the only direct link to Calgary was 2 posters on Calgarypuck claiming they heard in advance from ppl around the organization (one of the posts was removed by mods and was made before the hart leave, the other stated they heard this beforehand after the fact that he was being charged was released) that the leave had to do with the investigation.

That’s enough to cast just a little doubt for me. In terms of imminent charges, perhaps they didn’t know. The potential of dube being charged though? I have a hard time believing that. But fine, if you think that’s just not enough, I don’t blame ya.

As much as sometimes maybe we should have known, we don't. We should have known Wideman might nuke a ref? We should have known that Peters made racist comments years ago and it would have been a problem exactly when he was a Flames coach and not when he was a Carolina coach? We should have known that Sutter would both win the Jack Adams and go crazy to be turfed soon after that to continue the curse? We should have known exactly what happened with Dube?

I don't get why we end up with some of the worst PR at the worst times. Fricken the whole Peters thing was basically a smoke screen for Babcock (as his protege) and we got the worst out of that situation than the Leafs did. Babcock even got a second chance before getting nuked again for looking at player pics on their phone without permission.

The Dube thing I'm not defending or commenting, but again we're unlucky enough to be the org with the most ire thrown at again. We basically had no choice but to ride the Dube situation out anyways because of combinations of action/inaction by the London Police/NHL etc. At least the Flames didn't try and weasel out of the situation by trading or actively moving the players/giving them chances when the contracts expired as other teams did, but that seemingly doesn't matter. So again, why is our org the one taking the most flack (even more so than the fact we don't seem to be the team with the ring leader) because of stupid extra wording on a tweet?

It's just blatantly frustrating to be the team most illuminated by the spotlight, especially when our guy wasn't the main guy getting the spotlight shone on the group in the first place, nor were they the main character in having the spotlight pointed in our way.

But it's not purely that we are in trouble that annoys me. It's that we tried to do right, but it seems like we get skewered anyways. Peters was the guy who was a dick to Aliu when a coach for the Hawks affiliate. We gave Aliu a chance under Feaster but get nuked on the whole ordeal because in the end we had the Peters hot potato when the whole thing blew up.

We tried to do right for the Dube thing and we were one of the only teams with one of those players on contract. We didn't try to move the player (ie: Philly) or obscure facts (ie: Foote, McLeod) so that the could continue NHL careers, but we get nuked moreso than the team who had the ring leader because we used a tweet that allowed sympathy to Dube when many felt he should have gotten nothing or should have been tar and feathered and brutalized in some way?

It's so baffling how attempts to do right and move in the right direction seem to be used more as evidence against us vs evidence for us. I'm so confused. CBJ ain't dealing with shit for attempting to bring Babcock back. Boston ain't dealing with shit for giving and then canceling the Mitchell bully contract... why is it that our org seems to have the PR shit magnet?


I understand why there's posters upset about the wording of the tweet. I honestly don't think the Flames org was truly trying to downplay or hide Dube's wrong doing. It was a timing difference issue while the Flames waited to figure out what to do with Dube vs when the shoe was actually going to drop. I'm sure the Flames knew it was coming, but perhaps they had no clue it was coming down the pipeline within that week.

But gaw dang, that stupid tweet ended up getting most NHL fans to look in our direction vs everyone else in that shit boat. We're like the best un-PR team out there.