Difference between Isles (Snow) and Leafs (Burke)

[TexMurphyPI]

I am a little confused about something...you as well as other posters continue to keep bringing up Kessel in a negative light, yet last time I checked the guy was in the TOP SIX in the NHL in scoring this season. Yes, Burke might have given up a bit too much to get him, but you make it sound like the guy is Marty Reasoner or Jay Pandolfo...he was one of the premier offensive players in the league this season. I wish Garth Snow would possibly give up a LITTLE too much to get one of the top scorers or d-men in the league.

I think most people believe he went after Kessel too early before the team was ready to move multiple 1st rounders for a top player. The Leafs lost a 2nd overall pick and another top 10 pick in the process plus a 2nd rounder too I think.

Of course I'm sure Burke believed the Leafs were further along and with Kessel would at worst be a 10-14 pick if they missed the playoffs in year 1 after the trade.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

You also can't overlook the fact that Burke also has no one to hold him accountable right now. With the sale from Teachers to Rogers/Bell ongoing, the current owner won't fire him and the incoming owner has no say or influence yet.

Regardless, the Toronto media has been tearing him apart basically saying in four years he's done nothing and has no core to build around. We at least have a decent core to build around.

Burke also doesn't have a strategy. He says in Dec. that he's behind the coach, then he cans the coach and his new coach says the bodies aren't big enough so now Burke says they need to get bigger so they can play with more truculence. Uh, hello? Burke was the guy getting all those soft players (Kessel, Komi, Phaneuf).

Toronto is a mess. The apology was a publicity stunt because Burke likes to be liked by the media. He's terrible. I'll take Snow and his plan 10 times out of 10 over Burke and his antics and bluster and impatience (again, Kessel is a prime example).

Toronto is behind us in terms of progress and has a longer non-playoff streak than we do and has all the money in the world.

I'll keep Snow thank you very much.

I'm not going to get into the Snow versus Burke debate, but I keep seeing folks mention that Toronto has no core to build around and I'm puzzled about what people are basing this on.

Kessel, Kulemin, Lupul, and Grabovski up front, with Phaneuf, Gardiner (who has been a STUD as a rookie this year), Gunnarson, Schenn and Franson on defense looks like a solid core to build around. They're all under 30 (a lot of them being 25 or under), so it's not like they're over the hill. Kessel in particular seems to get criticized a lot, and talked about as if he's Nikita Filatov. But the guy is only 24 years old, and is coming off a 37 goal, 82 point season ... and that's without the benefit of having a legitimate #1 center to set him up.

And that's not touching anyone on their farm/prospects in junior/NCAA/Europe.

Toronto's two glaring holes are #1 center and #1 goalie. Big holes, for sure. But IF those two can be filled adequately, I can see the Leafs actually making some noise. They're pretty deep everywhere else in the lineup.

IMO, this seems a bit too much like seeing your glass half full while seeing the other team's as half empty.

 

[rikker]

I'm not going to get into the Snow versus Burke debate, but I keep seeing folks mention that Toronto has no core to build around and I'm puzzled about what people are basing this on.

Kessel, Kulemin, Lupul, and Grabovski up front, with Phaneuf, Gardiner (who has been a STUD as a rookie this year), Gunnarson, Schenn and Franson on defense looks like a solid core to build around. They're all under 30 (a lot of them being 25 or under), so it's not like they're over the hill. Kessel in particular seems to get criticized a lot, and talked about as if he's Nikita Filatov. But the guy is only 24 years old, and is coming off a 37 goal, 82 point season ... and that's without the benefit of having a legitimate #1 center to set him up.

And that's not touching anyone on their farm/prospects in junior/NCAA/Europe.

Toronto's two glaring holes are #1 center and #1 goalie. Big holes, for sure. But IF those two can be filled adequately, I can see the Leafs actually making some noise. They're pretty deep everywhere else in the lineup.

IMO, this seems a bit too much like seeing your glass half full while seeing the other team's as half empty.

agree completely. i am not a Leaf fan or even close to it, but a true #1 goalie would do wonders for them. i think that Burke made a mistake when he publically stated that he was going with Reimer. a better reply would have been, that they were looking to improve the team at all positions.

 

[JKP]

I'm not going to get into the Snow versus Burke debate, but I keep seeing folks mention that Toronto has no core to build around and I'm puzzled about what people are basing this on.

Kessel, Kulemin, Lupul, and Grabovski up front, with Phaneuf, Gardiner (who has been a STUD as a rookie this year), Gunnarson, Schenn and Franson on defense looks like a solid core to build around. They're all under 30 (a lot of them being 25 or under), so it's not like they're over the hill. Kessel in particular seems to get criticized a lot, and talked about as if he's Nikita Filatov. But the guy is only 24 years old, and is coming off a 37 goal, 82 point season ... and that's without the benefit of having a legitimate #1 center to set him up.

And that's not touching anyone on their farm/prospects in junior/NCAA/Europe.

Toronto's two glaring holes are #1 center and #1 goalie. Big holes, for sure. But IF those two can be filled adequately, I can see the Leafs actually making some noise. They're pretty deep everywhere else in the lineup.

IMO, this seems a bit too much like seeing your glass half full while seeing the other team's as half empty.

Gardiner is the only real one there to build around. Kessel won't fit with what Carlyle wants, he's way too soft. I don't think Phaneuf is anything special and is overpaid. Schenn hasn't been up to billing and isn't worth the $3M+ he's getting. Lupul is something to build around, but is only signed for one more year then is a UFA.

Again, I don't follow TO that closely, but the media there in general don't feel there's much there to build around. I think we have a much better core (anchored obviously by JT) to build around.

 

[Doshell Propivo]

Here's the difference: Burke has 25 years experience as an NHL exec. Snow is a back up goalie who plays a GM for a living. Burke has won a cup. Snow gets cups of coffee for Wang.

Burke has been underwhelming in Toronto but he'd be a huge upgrade over the incompetent buffoons that currently run this sad team.

 

[Chapin Landvogt]

well stated Chapin...this is your "A" game post...you're in playoff mode, even though the team isn't

Very kind of you RB.

Still, I wish the team weren't in the situation it is - and thus, I wouldn't have to feel the need to post that.

Woeeeeee are us.

 

[Chapin Landvogt]

show me how other GM's are laughing at snow, because he's 'horrible'.

show me, and i will agree with you.

i really want to be a knowledgeable fan like you guys...

I'm with you here.

I think he generally enjoys the respect of his GM peers.

 

[A Pointed Stick]

I'm with you here.

I think he generally enjoys the respect of his GM peers.

What about the ones who heard him suggest the round robin playoffs for the 8th playoff spot in each conference? I don't think that one won much respect.

 

[ledzep1212]

islander fans refuse to admit that snow is in over his head in his position

As incorrect as you could possibly be, but hey don't use any facts to push across your point, just use the same "5 years, 5 lottery finishes!!11!1!!!!!!!111" BS.

 

[Janson]

What about the ones who heard him suggest the round robin playoffs for the 8th playoff spot in each conference? I don't think that one won much respect.

He was a clown in league when he was a player, who can forget those shoulder pads? I don't dislike Garf but I seriously doubt he commands respect from his peers.
Garth and Cappy should stay till 2015, its been along time since this franchise had stability no matter how bad it is. I can't even imagine the clown shoes Wang would find to replace either. Bring back Rick Bowness baby!

 

[Janson]

As incorrect as you could possibly be, but hey don't use any facts to push across your point, just use the same "5 years, 5 lottery finishes!!11!1!!!!!!!111" BS.

Well his asset management leaves a lot to be desired. How much did he give up to draft DeHaan? Who would have been most likely been on the board for their second pick anyway.
Picking Bailey way to early, he recovered on day 2 of the '08 draft but day one he looked like a rookie GM.
2nd for Zednik.
His crappy sabermatic reasoning for letting a heart and soul player like Konopka walk in favor for one goal Reasoner.
AND on and on....

 

[miscreant]

Very good points.

I agree that Burke is commanding and at most times outspoken, but I firmly believe he is legitamately passionate about attaining results. I haven't seen this from Snow at all..... what we were told instead was "we had wins against Detroit and Pitts? which tells me we can compete with anyone". I am sorry, but that quote might be the saddest thing I have heard in quite some time. Even if he has a personality of a wet noodle, comments like that scream content and satisfied. What message does that send to a young Josh Bailey or Kyle Okposo? That a couple good outings here and there is all that is expected??

I acknowledge that both Burke and Snow's situations are extremely different but I would betmy bottom dollar that Burke would label our season the same way he did in T.O. .....a failure. I do not support Burke, but I garauntee that him and Wang would last a month tops together. Why? Priorities. We all know what Wang's preference is, shouldnt we all be hoping for a GM that will push the opposite way?

I get what you're saying to this extent: while Wang sets the tone for the lack of expectations, accountability and resources, that tone could be somewhat improved instead of worsened if Snow handled his position with more professionalism and assertiveness. What's unknowable is the relationship between Snow and Wang. Maybe Snow materially agrees with Wang's priorities or maybe Snow expends much effort steering Wang away from cockamamie ideas that we're not privy to. Even if that's the case, I can't fault Snow for doing what he has to do to keep his job, considering his only other job option in hockey might be teaching a 'how to cheat with goalie pads' clinic.

The other thing I find interesting is given the obvious clown show attributes of this organization, how we are able to retain so many players on reasonable deals. An uncharitable explanation might be that some of these guys are OK with an environment of lesser accountability and the 5-month summer vacation that goes along with it. But I don't think we want to go there.

 

[ledzep1212]

Well his asset management leaves a lot to be desired. How much did he give up to draft DeHaan? Who would have been most likely been on the board for their second pick anyway.

Not true at all, there were a couple teams that were quite interested in taking de haan ahead of where the Isles were picking.

Picking Bailey way to early, he recovered on day 2 of the '08 draft but day one he looked like a rookie GM.

How did he pick Bailey too early? Bailey was looked at being picked in that 9-15 range. The mistake was keeping Bailey up after his 9 games instead of sending him back to Windsor.

His crappy Sabrematic reasoning for letting a heart and soul player like Konopka walk in favor for one goal Reasoner.
AND on and on....

No decision based on Sabremetrics is crappy. Reasoner had an awful year after a career year. Nobody could have predicted he would have had such a disastrous season. Also that heart and soul player btw has been a consistent healthy scratch for the Sens this year.

 

[OlTimeHockey]

As incorrect as you could possibly be, but hey don't use any facts to push across your point, just use the same "5 years, 5 lottery finishes!!11!1!!!!!!!111" BS.

So, by your logic, Snow is the GREATEST GM THE GAME, NO, THE WORLD HAS EVER KNOWN!!!

It's refreshing to know we have a team that never does anything wrong.

 

[ledzep1212]

So, by your logic, Snow is the GREATEST GM THE GAME, NO, THE WORLD HAS EVER KNOWN!!!

It's refreshing to know we have a team that never does anything wrong.

yeah, no

 

[OlTimeHockey]

yeah, no

So, do tell.....what makes Snow any worse than, say, Jesus? Or maybe Bill Torrey? What has Snow ever been sub-supreme on? I read all your posts on his and everything Islanders defense and don't think there has ever been a team better than our 2012 New York Islanders.

Ever.

Where is Snow lacking and just what is keeping the New York Islanders from becoming a religion?

 

[ledzep1212]

So, do tell.....what makes Snow any worse than, say, Jesus? Or maybe Bill Torrey? What has Snow ever been sub-supreme on? I read all your posts on his and everything Islanders defense and don't think there has ever been a team better than our 2012 New York Islanders.

Ever.

Where is Snow lacking and just what is keeping the New York Islanders from becoming a religion?

Forgot this was the Islanders board on HF, where facts, and stats do not matter. I will do my best in the future to lead negativity cloud my judgement and make sure I avoid using stats and facts at all costs.

 

[OlTimeHockey]

Forgot this was the Islanders board on HF, where facts, and stats do not matter. I will do my best in the future to lead negativity cloud my judgement and make sure I avoid using stats and facts at all costs.

No, just use facts.

Or defend a position rationally. You are sooooo,sooooo homer on the actions of Wang, Snow and everything Isles IMHO.

Good for you on one hand....I wish I had faith that Snow was better than ANY other candidate and Wang is willing to spend to the cap ceiling if only he got the right pieces. I wish Capuano was the best coach available and still is. I wish a lot of things that Snow and Wang have created were inspirational.

But I'm sane.

Snow sucks. He's easily replaceable and IMHO would make a semi-solid assistant GM on his merit.

But grown up GM's make trades. Garf Garf is leaving his team at the kids' table every deadline. Fans just get ripped off by the lack of attention on the roster EVERY ****ING YEAR. Make sure to make your renewals early or you lose your seats, folks.


Oh, and cite your facts and stats. I'll be citing your posts if need be.

 

[rikker]

No, just use facts.

Or defend a position rationally. You are sooooo,sooooo homer on the actions of Wang, Snow and everything Isles IMHO.

Good for you on one hand....I wish I had faith that Snow was better than ANY other candidate and Wang is willing to spend to the cap ceiling if only he got the right pieces. I wish Capuano was the best coach available and still is. I wish a lot of things that Snow and Wang have created were inspirational.

But I'm sane.

Snow sucks. He's easily replaceable and IMHO would make a semi-solid assistant GM on his merit.

But grown up GM's make trades. Garf Garf is leaving his team at the kids' table every deadline. Fans just get ripped off by the lack of attention on the roster EVERY ****ING YEAR. Make sure to make your renewals early or you lose your seats, folks.


Oh, and cite your facts and stats. I'll be citing your posts if need be.

you really gotta stop insulting people for their opinions, and having hope.

no one ever said that Snow was the best GM. Wang has admitted that he is building through the draft, and most of us realize that it means a cheap, cheap team for a while. no one ever said that Capuano was the best coach.

 

[Janson]

Not true at all, there were a couple teams that were quite interested in taking de haan ahead of where the Isles were picking.

How did he pick Bailey too early? Bailey was looked at being picked in that 9-15 range. The mistake was keeping Bailey up after his 9 games instead of sending him back to Windsor.

No decision based on Sabremetrics is crappy. Reasoner had an awful year after a career year. Nobody could have predicted he would have had such a disastrous season. Also that heart and soul player btw has been a consistent healthy scratch for the Sens this year.

3 picks for this kid who is looking to not be the BPA.

I don't remember one person on here happy with Bailey at 9. I like Bailey but he was not the BPA by a long shot.

Gotta disagree with you, in Hockey it is. Leadership, team unity and protection are not quantifiable. Garth and Wang will read another book this summer and have another game plan.
Sens are a playoff team this year, they have depth so they don't need to play a grinder like Konopka for 82 games. We just look for warm bodies to play games.

Garth has no respect from his owner to be a GM, WHY would his peers respect him? I don't like seeing Garth/Wang with the entourage kid at the draft table, friggin' embrassing mickey mouse organization. What other owner sits at the table? Its just so many little things that they do that make us the laughing stock for the League.

 

[rikker]

3 picks for this kid who is looking to not be the BPA.

I don't remember one person on here happy with Bailey at 9. I like Bailey but he was not the BPA by a long shot.

Gotta disagree with you, in Hockey it is. Leadership, team unity and protection are not quantifiable. Garth and Wang will read another book this summer and have another game plan.
Sens are a playoff team this year, they have depth so they don't need to play a grinder like Konopka for 82 games. We just look for warm bodies to play games.

Garth has no respect from his owner to be a GM, WHY would his peers respect him? I don't like seeing Garth/Wang with the entourage kid at the draft table, friggin' embrassing mickey mouse organization. What other owner sits at the table? Its just so many little things that they do that make us the laughing stock for the League.

saying which 21 year old is better, is just pure speculation, at this point. i was ok with Bailey. dehaan, i was disappointed with, but again, it's too early to judge. i don't see Wang and Snow changing their gameplan. they've been sticking with the same one for 5 years now, and publically announced that they are staying the course. our warm bodies did pretty good this year. 79 pts in 82 games... no proof that Wang has no respect for Garth. who cares if the Enterage dude is at our draft table? it's not like we're paying him, he's just a big Isles fan.

 

[Janson]

saying which 21 year old is better, is just pure speculation, at this point. i was ok with Bailey. dehaan, i was disappointed with, but again, it's too early to judge. i don't see Wang and Snow changing their gameplan. they've been sticking with the same one for 5 years now, and publically announced that they are staying the course. our warm bodies did pretty good this year. 79 pts in 82 games... no proof that Wang has no respect for Garth. who cares if the Enterage dude is at our draft table? it's not like we're paying him, he's just a big Isles fan.

I agree saying which 21 yr old is too early to tell and which 18 year old is even worse to evaluate. 3 for 1, almost never works out when dealing picks. Get my point?
Wang being at the table is like he doesn't trust the people he hired to do the job, Garth looks like he has to run every pick by dad to get approval. What other owner does that? Say what you want about Burke but he would never put up with that, the man has a set.

 

[rikker]

I agree saying which 21 yr old is too early to tell and which 18 year old is even worse to evaluate. 3 for 1, almost never works out when dealing picks. Get my point?
Wang being at the table is like he doesn't trust the people he hired to do the job, Garth looks like he has to run every pick by dad to get approval. What other owner does that? Say what you want about Burke but he would never put up with that, the man has a set.

sure, 3 average players are better than 1 good player . not saying that this is the case, but again, it's too early to tell. i have finished my basic math course, and know that 3 $2 bills are not better than 1 $10 bill. not saying dehaan will be a $10 bill, but it's just too early to tell.

Milbury had a set. do you want him back? nothing wrong with having a set, but it is important to use that set wisely...

 

[A Pointed Stick]

But grown up GM's make trades. Garf Garf is leaving his team at the kids' table every deadline. Fans just get ripped off by the lack of attention on the roster EVERY ****ING YEAR. Make sure to make your renewals early or you lose your seats, folks.

I think I get their argument now. Because he hasn't made any critical trades, even one, in the past two years when the team is basically begging for two holes to be filled, it is proof that he has been trying to, and that he will.

Remember last year OTH? Everyone not named Snow, Wang, or A'blinkin pointed out the need for a top four addition to the blue line (and not a Geezer, but a youngin'.) Half of those folks followed it up with "But the need is so obvious he simply has to do it, so we know he will."

But he didn't. And I think it changed more than a few opinions that were on the fence about the direction of the club.

And now magically heading into this summer, instead of the assumption that he will patch the giant hole, we are hearing instead that he's doing the best he can and we just have to "soldier on" through it. Sure, Having the worst defense in the NHL crippled the club's ability to compete for a playoff spot by December. Sure it is helping to make the least of the good young forward's development time now. And sure it will guarantee an equally bad season next year. But never mind all that. Just drink more Koolaid because that solves everything.

"Always look on the briiiiiight siiide of life....."

Moderators, would you be willing to embed that song as a player in my post?

 

[Janson]

sure, 3 average players are better than 1 good player . not saying that this is the case, but again, it's too early to tell. i have finished my basic math course, and know that 3 $2 bills are not better than 1 $10 bill. not saying dehaan will be a $10 bill, but it's just too early to tell.

Milbury had a set. do you want him back? nothing wrong with having a set, but it is important to use that set wisely...

Milbury, everyone's favorite fallback. Do you want Maloney back? What do either have to do with Garth and Burke? All Garth is a glorified yes man, that is what Wang wants and that is what he hires.
Smith, Nolan, Jaffe, LaFontaine agree. No accountability just riding it out till 2015, New York Islanders.
Do I want Snow fired, no. Do I praise him for the crappy job he has done, hell no.