Did signing Tavares lead to the Leafs' downfall?

[Kamiccolo]

I never said they should have signed a D.

In my mind, signing JT allowed then to TRADE a forward for D help. It gave them flexibility. But the trade they made...was to trade Kadri for Kerfoot/Barrie. Barrie is what he is...a soft PMD....something the Leafs didn't really need and Kerfoot is a fine #3C replacement.

But they also removed physicality with that trade...something the team already lacked. Obviously I understand being unhappy with Kadri and his bonehead suspensions come playoff time. But he did bring something that none of the other players brought, an edge.

But we agree, the issues are fixable this year. But will Dubas admit a mistake and add some missing elements that the team needs? He should....and I think at some point he will. I 100% still think the Leafs make the playoffs.

Dubas is a smart guy who sadly was thrown into probably one of the hardest situations ever. 3 young players needing massive deals and the pressure to have a team make win now moves. A lot of experienced GM's wouldn't even try to touch that job, especially with the media in TO if it goes sideways it can ruin a career.

I still have faith something will get done. Like I said, I want to see the team under a different coach. All of Babcock's teams have played soft and he seems to be coaching the hits and such out of the game of these players for things like running subtle interference.

Leafs are right smack average for team size and weight. I honestly believe the "soft" is a mentality and if a new coach can fix special teams and let the players go they will be fine. Hard not to blame coaching for a PP in the bottom 10 league wide with the star power they have. And the coaches never make adjustments ever, same people always.

 

[HabsQC]

He has a full NMC for the life of his contract, the Leafs can't trade him unless he approves it so he has all the power.

oh right, well what I meant was he actually holds some value, he's not a bad signing like Alzner in Montreal for example. But you are absolutely right and I didn't know that.

 

[TheBloodyNine]

There was no reason for the Leafs to sign Tavares.

 

[Mackiaveli]

Who's a was a what now? Sorry but Nylander doesn't get you a #1 D-man even with Kapanen. The Habs wouldn't have touched that trade with a 10' pole. Weber(retained!!!) + Shaw(got us a 2nd and a 3rd) + a 1st (depending on the year would've been Kotkaniemi or Caufield) for 2 complementary Wingers? No way no how buddy.

I'm a Habs fan

At the time, everyone would have said no from Toronto, and the Habs fans would all be saying yes please --- Shaw hadn't had his 19g/47p season yet, and Weber was just coming back from surgeries.

Obviously recency bias leads us to think that trade would have been a steal for the Leafs, and the Habs would have been getting screwed long term --- but I think what we would have is two very happy teams.

Kapanen and Nylander on our team would have made our offensive depth that much better, and made complimentary pieces like Paul Byron more expendable. While there would be a big gaping hole without Shea Weber, we would have more likely committed heavily to Erik Karlsson, who could play a similar role to Petry as he has to Burns (yes, Burns is far better I know) --- the Habs would have gotten rid of a contract that very well could still end up being a boat anchor in a couple of years, while getting two young 60/40 point players.

 

[SI90]

As much as I love the mess that the leafs are in right now I can’t say that signing Pajama Boy is the reason. When a player like him becomes available and wants to play for you without costing assets, you sign that player. He’s a legit #1 center who at the time was only 28.

I think the problem is how they built around him. Kadri was/is on a great contract for what he brings. Having him as your #3 center behind Matthews and Pajamas would make you incredibly down the middle and give you a guy in Kadri who can help defensively as well.

trading him for Barrie and Kerfoot looks like a mistake early on.
The other issue when having such good players is they all have to be paid. In a cap league that’s tough.

You keep Pajamas, Matthews and Reilly. Marner showed he can be a superstar winger but he’s getting paid an insane amount.

I think the decision should have come down to Marner vs Nylander. Trade one of them. Also should note that Marner is a really good penalty killer to go with his offense.

it’s great having a high powered offense with stars but building the bottom 6 is so important. You need to find the right mix of veteran players who don’t cost much but can add a lot to your team in those roles. Spezza is not it.

Then you have the defense which seems to be a mess. Rielly hasn’t looked right this year but he’s proven. Muzzin has looked better this year than last year. Barrie isn’t the answer and should be traded because TOR isn’t re-signing him. Dermott still has potential. the leafs need to find an experienced defenseman or 2 that can play decent minutes but knows how to defend in their own end. They don’t need to be all world puck movers and offensive guys. They need to find a Scott Mayfield and Adam Pelech like the Islanders have.

Andersen is fine as a starting goalie but they need to solidify their back up position.

Now, the coaching is half of the problem. Babcock needs to be given his walking papers. These guys aren’t responding to him and their effort of late as been called questionable.

they’re off to a terrible start but they have tons of talent and can still make the playoffs imo or at least challenge as a bubble Team. They just have to make some bold decisions to fix the mess they’re currently in.

 

[Riseonfire]

Theoretically they didn't NEED another C. However, the idea of rolling him and Matthews as your top 2 C's should be a matchup nightmare and big advantage for the Leafs on most nights (a slight lesser version of Pitt) Does Babcock play his stars enough? That been a discussion point for a while now

Yeah, but Matthews - Kadri is still better than most 1-2 punches. Just seemed super greedy and I'm personally glad Toronto is in hell right now.

 

[BlueOil]

it's frail logic to suggest it's tavares.

targeting the dubas who made it all happen would be a good spot to start.

 

[Boulder Avalanche]

Signing Tavares was not the issue. It was after signing him not dealing one of Marner/Nylander for a better defenseman than what they got for Kadri. The issue with the Leafs is one of balance where they have incredible talent upfront but lack another anchoring piece for the blue line. Add in a coach who resists change and you get what we seeing this season.

 

[HockeyDBspecialist]

Ima tell it again, same as I said this Summer.


MAtthews is the cancer of the team, he needs to be traded and the core should be Tavares/Marner/rielly.

 

[JohnnyBerts]

I think it was part of the downfall. This rebuild started with Lou at the helm. Lou would have signed Marner and Matthews right away for 8 years and skipped Tavares but Shanny said no. So obviously it's been a hiccup in the Shanaplan. I think Dubas is riding on Sheldon Keefe as the guy who can drive the team he put together when they finally come to terms with paying out Babcock.

IMO Tavares was also a mistake because of timing and money. The window for this year and next will still be Boston, Tampa, & Washington and then it opens up where the Leafs "should have been" the team to take the next step in 21-22. The extra money to add a 1A D and pay the guys who need to get paid was more valuable than Johnny T at 31 years when the Toronto cup window opens.

 

[GoBuds14]

Yeah, but Matthews - Kadri is still better than most 1-2 punches. Just seemed super greedy and I'm personally glad Toronto is in hell right now.

I'm not sure who you cheer for, but if an a number 1 Center WANTED to play for your team at market value, your team probably does it if it has the cap space, which Toronto had at the time

 

[Riseonfire]

I'm not sure who you cheer for, but if an a number 1 Center WANTED to play for your team at market value, your team probably does it if it has the cap space, which Toronto had at the time

I get it, but the team had holes before sinking 11M into an area of strength. It's easy to say it's obvious now knowing the results, but many correctly called out there would be a problem with the defense.

 

[GrantLemons]

I get it, but the team had holes before sinking 11M into an area of strength. It's easy to say it's obvious now knowing the results, but many correctly called out there would be a problem with the defense.

You can never be too strong down the middle.

JT was signed before any of the big three had their paydays. There was still plenty of time to move pieces around and address the "problem with the defense".

The mistake was overpaying (even if it was slight) on Matthews/Marner, and promising Nylander he wouldn't be moved. They could probably get a nice package for Nylander that may return both of their weaknesses (depth/defense), but now Dubas can't do it without toasting his reputation.

Signing JT wasn't and isn't the issue imo. It's everything that followed.

 

[tellermine]

Nylander is more.
Trade for defence, but no, give him overpaid contract.

Though Nylander would still get nice value from a team that needs soft primadonna.

 

[macleod50]

He was called that before the article. You guys coined it. And how are we being salty? You made it past round one, congrats I guess?

Thank you! I will say the same when/if the Leafs do it.

My point is he added fuel to the fire. Why do Leafs' fans get so bent out of shape when Islanders' fans give Tavares grief? So some fans give a multi-millionaire some static when he plays his old team. You guys can just throw him another "John Tavares Day" if it gets to be too much for him.

To get back on topic. Dubas painted himself in the corner. I think it's only a matter of time before Babcock is fired and Keefe is named the new head coach. That is a quick band-aid that should get some points and possibly Toronto into a position to make a run at the playoffs.

 

[ffh]

Said the day they signed him on here there were so many unintended consequences with that signing especially in terms of ice time for kadri and future contracts but all I heard back was how great the team would be and it would all work out. It hasn't.

 

[Rehabguy]

This is exactly how I see it.

When they signed JT I thought it was a good thing, Tavares is really solid steady older player who will lead a young Leafs team. I also thought Nylander would have to be moved because he was a luxury and not a necessity and obviously would be a cap issue soon.

Then Dubas says "we can, we will" and I think he has to be lying.

I mean he kept his word but the balance of the team is just so off now and the obvious answer is to move Nylander. I guess time will tell if Dubas will go back on his statement, but it seems to me like they have no choice. I can guarantee if a new GM comes in Nylander will be the first guy out the door.

Was not keeping the core 4 players intact part of the agreement Tavares insisted upon when he signed with the Leafs?

In fact, I read in article that Dubas felt he "owed" it to John Tavares to keep the core 4 players intact. He mentions in this article his constant contact with Tavares' "camp" about how he was going to make sure the core stayed intact prior to Tavares signing with the Leafs.

https://www.tsn.ca/dubas-wouldn-t-be-fair-to-tavares-to-lose-a-core-piece-1.1131770

So it can be surmised that Nylander not being moved was just as much Tavares' insistence as it was Dubas' decision.

 

[FourRings]

Dubas is a smart guy who sadly was thrown into probably one of the hardest situations ever. 3 young players needing massive deals and the pressure to have a team make win now moves. A lot of experienced GM's wouldn't even try to touch that job, especially with the media in TO if it goes sideways it can ruin a career.

I still have faith something will get done. Like I said, I want to see the team under a different coach. All of Babcock's teams have played soft and he seems to be coaching the hits and such out of the game of these players for things like running subtle interference.

Leafs are right smack average for team size and weight. I honestly believe the "soft" is a mentality and if a new coach can fix special teams and let the players go they will be fine. Hard not to blame coaching for a PP in the bottom 10 league wide with the star power they have. And the coaches never make adjustments ever, same people always.

Dubas found himself in the enviable position of having TWO young franchise players, a third very good young player and enough cap space to sign John freakin' Tavares. Dubas stepped into a great situation. The resulting mess is completely on him.

 

[13th Floor]

It's kind of a moot question in a vacuum. It's hard to knock a team for grabbing a superstar UFA, but the problem is grabbing that person meant you had to make subsequent moves that made sense, and the Leafs didn't. So is it the signing of Tavares? The giving in to Nylander? The big RFA deals to Matthews/Marner?

At the end, it doesn't matter. The mess up was in the total plan however you want to slice it. Since each move is dependent on the other, you can go in circles. Putting aside early season troubles since they could just be a blip, the bottom line is there was a failure to execute a successful plan. Dubas essentially set the Leafs up for a boom or bust 1 (maybe 2) year window. That is not the way to build a contender in a salary cap era when you need to maximize your competing window and use your assets wisely. Maybe it's a way to keep a contender (Chicago), but it isn't the way to create one since they still need to go through growing pains. Everyone always points to that quote from Gretzky when he looked at the Isles locker room and saw what it takes to win. That takes a year or two and that can't be the only 2 years you have to compete.


In total, the failures are:
Spending a ton of money to overpay for a UFA (not saying the Leafs overpaid versus anyone else, just that UFAs are overpaid because of market demand).
Not taking advantage of cheap RFA years.
Doubling down at one position (forward).
Needing to make cap-relieving moves that hurt the team before they've even won.
Having no money leftover for depth and a backup goalie.

To be completely revisionist, I would have not signed Tavares since they were strong at the position and UFAs demand so much money and traded Nylander before last season, which would have allowed the Leafs to: 1) use the money spent on Tavares for bottom 6 depth, a back-up goalie, and a low-pairing but solid dman, 2) packaged Nylander + other futures for another solid dman, 3) avoid having to make cap dump moves that allow you to use the assets in a Nylander trade, and 4) have a little money leftover for options in the season.

 

[Crabapple]

Hot take incomin: I feel like the Leafs would be a lot worse without Tavares.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Hot take incomin: I feel like the Leafs would be a lot worse without Tavares.

Kind of like how the Islanders are worse withou... oops, wait, nevermind.

 

[Westlander]

Signing Tavares was one of many moves that lead the team to where it stands today, but no, that's not the main thing that caused the downfall. As a gazillion others have already said, the real problem wasn't signing JT, it was what was or wasn't done with their personnel moves after that.

Some say, 'they didn't need more offence, they should have spent the money on defence instead,' but which defensemen were available then as FAs that would have really helped? Doughty was up 1 year later, but he resigned with the Kings and it didn't sound like he was interested anyway. The only way to get a top line D would be by trade costing significant assets, which the Tavares signing should have given them the freedom to do, but they have not chosen that route as yet.

 

[fasterthanlight]

I think it's pretty simple: In a cap era, if you're spending to the cap, good players vs bad players don't really matter. Good players for the price is what matters. The leafs have many amazing players, fewer amazing players for the price.

 

[Green]

what downfall, it is 20 games into year 2 and the Leafs are 4 points out of a playoff spot, Islander fans getting excited over this need to check themselves

 

[WetcoastOrca]

It’s taken a lot of mistakes for the Leafs to end up where they are right now given all of their offensive fire power.
The GM, coaches and players are all at fault. Heck I’m not even sure the Zamboni driver and stick boy should get off scott free!