Did Ken Holland Get Lazy After 2009?

[Zetterberg4Captain]

not so much lazy as incompetent

he got lucky when he took over a team loaded with young superstars and then got double lucky when his head scout unearthed two once in a lifetime late round steals

since then he has been rdiing the gravy train for as long as he can

you sign coliacovo? its time you go

 

[dtones520]

not so much lazy as incompetent

he got lucky when he took over a team loaded with young superstars and then got double lucky when his head scout unearthed two once in a lifetime late round steals

since then he has been rdiing the gravy train for as long as he can

you sign coliacovo? its time you go

The GM employs that head scout and is the one who pulls the trigger on the scouts suggestions. It's no luckier than a team being horrible for years drafting Crosby, Malkin, Staal, and Fleury number one and winning a cup because of it. The fact that he has kept this team in contention year after year with no top 15 draft picks is pretty damn impressive.

His loyalty and cautiousness has won us a lot of games, but it has also now bit him in the butt. We are talking about one losing season, that isn't even half over, out of 14. That's pretty damn good. Look at Lou Lamorello, another one of the best GMs in the league, has had 4 in 25 years. They are bound to happen. It is so hard to be good for that long in pro sports, especially when dealing with a salary cap and a system that was put in place to basically change the way we did business.

 

[DarkReign]

This is one of the few well intentioned, well reasoned threads floating in this forum this year. Bravo.

It wasn't a secret that this years' team was one of the weakest I have seen in my Wing fandom ('91). You knew it, I knew it, everyone knew it.

I give Holland an average rating in that he never addressed the inevitable departure of Lidstrom or acquired the winger needed to complement Datsyuk. Nor the big body defensemen to play the bottom pair and PK.

Beyond that however, he was right to play his cards close leading up to the expiring CBA. Handing out lifetime deals for established superstars is reasonable...overpaying for mid level players is certainly an area I appreciate him avoiding.

He sat on his cap space not out of spite, but by pure UFA choice.

I am not happy but I guess I understand it. 2 years, that's my threshold. I have to admit, it is fun to watch the youngins' play. It's a breath of life and energy mixed with optimistic uncertainty. So what if the streak ends? I'd trade that streak in a flat Texas second for the cup in 2009.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

not so much lazy as incompetent

he got lucky when he took over a team loaded with young superstars and then got double lucky when his head scout unearthed two once in a lifetime late round steals

since then he has been rdiing the gravy train for as long as he can

you sign coliacovo? its time you go

You do realize Holland was the head scout that unearthed Lidstrom and Fedorov right, that is part of how he worked his way up the food chain. Then was the Co-GM starting in 94-95, people like selling short some of his impact on the team. He has been the guy for longer than you realize. Him and Devellano deserve the bulk of the credit no matter how much Bowman or Babcock lovers want to go to bat for some other tale.

He deserves the chance to right this he has three years from now for me, that will anger some, but as other have pointed out Lou in New Jersey has missed the playoffs four times in the last 25 years. It is a hard thing to do, give him time to work his plan out, he already reloaded the system something he promised coming out of the last lockout. Some of the plans he talks about he is doing, we will see if he can get a free agent or two and what Nill and Andersson have put in the system along with Holland shortly.

 

[PullHard]

You do realize Holland was the head scout that unearthed Lidstrom and Fedorov right, that is part of how he worked his way up the food chain. Then was the Co-GM starting in 94-95, people like selling short some of his impact on the team. He has been the guy for longer than you realize. Him and Devellano deserve the bulk of the credit no matter how much Bowman or Babcock lovers want to go to bat for some other tale.

He deserves the chance to right this he has three years from now for me, that will anger some, but as other have pointed out Lou in New Jersey has missed the playoffs four times in the last 25 years. It is a hard thing to do, give him time to work his plan out, he already reloaded the system something he promised coming out of the last lockout. Some of the plans he talks about he is doing, we will see if he can get a free agent or two and what Nill and Andersson have put in the system along with Holland shortly.

Very true. We need to be a bit more patient. Less doom&gloom and more self deprecating humor. Holland has been so consistent with the team that we owe him a few seasons of pure garbage before we can legitimately expect him to move on. NJ recently had loads of injuries and a bad year. They wound up with Adam Larsson, who some said was the best Swedish Dman since Lidstrom (I think Forsberg said it?). So maybe one year of pure trash will pay off and we will get right back on the horse. With the salary cap era, you never know who will show up one year and not the next. Look at the Ducks 180 since last year, with more or less the same roster.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

The other side of it could also be Holland takes this half season and next season on the chin and decides himself to move upstairs. He is a proud man and probably wants to fix it, but he could also himself opt upstairs into a different role. That remains to be seen with the people who are already at his neck. Holland might himself decide he doesn't have it, but he has earned the opportunity to work this out and not have people at his throat instantly.

 

[JackieTreehorn]

wasnt Federov a superstar with the Red Army before defecting?

And very likely Hakan or his predeccsor discovered Lidstrom.

Seems like were giving credit where it isnt due. I see Holland has been credited with 4 Cups now also despite only being at the helm for 3 and inheriting a ridicolous team.

 

[ricky0034]

wasnt Federov a superstar with the Red Army before defecting?

And very likely Hakan or his predeccsor discovered Lidstrom.

Seems like were giving credit where it isnt due. I see Holland has been credited with 4 Cups now also despite only being at the helm for 3 and inheriting a ridicolous team.

Fedorov was highly regarded yeah,no scouting involved there just a lot of political stuff

he was in Seattle for an international tournament and literally snuck out of his hotel room where a waiting limo then took him to Illitch's private jet which he then took to Detroit

 

[Huddy*]

Im starting to think Hollands success was bc he had Bowman in his back pocket...ever since Bowman left for Chicago, the Wings have led down a spiral path..

 

[Ennui]

Whether Holland got lazy, was never responsible for the rosters that successfully won the Stanley Cup, or whether this isn't entirely attributable to him, I think that Columbus has unfortunately set the tone/standard for replacement of a GM by letting Howson steer the Blue Jackets ship into icebergs for 6 years.

I don't think Holland will be fired anytime soon, even if it were exactly what this team needed (whether he is responsible is unknown), and even if an ideal replacement were knocking on the door (the availability of which is not certain).

I guess my point is that it's hard to entirely attribute Ken Holland for the state of the Red Wings, yet even if it were definitely attributable to him you would likely find that Babcock would be replaced far sooner than Holland. I had thought that when Yzerman insisted upon moving up or out of the franchise, Holland would have abdicated his position and Nill would have become GM, allowing Yzerman to become assistant GM. Natural progression of things.

IF I had to assert one, and only one problem that I have with Ken Holland, it would be that it seems he is far too reluctant, or afraid to act at times; I don't know if it is attributable to him or to the pro-scouting the Wings have in place, but it seems as if he is all too keen to choose players that he is familiar with over players that have not had experience playing on the Wings, even if the player that he doesn't know as well hold significantly more upside. This could simply be a case of him choosing the devils he knows over the devils he doesn't, which could easily become problematic, or it could simply be a case that Holland, recently, has had a tragic case of barking up the wrong tree when it comes to pursuing big name free agents or seeking decisive trades.

 

[Henkka]

Yes, it has to be that Ken Holland has never done anyhing good for this organization. Someone else did all those good things. Ken Holland did only those bad things. Yeah, here we go, how intelligent logic that is. Marvellous.

 

[Goalie guy]

Yes, it has to be that Ken Holland has never done anyhing good for this organization. Someone else did all those good things. Ken Holland did only those bad things. Yeah, here we go, how intelligent logic that is. Marvellous.

Who is saying he done nothing good??? he did it is just falling apart and fast ever since Bowmen left! Say what you want look at the wings and what they have done, now look at what the hawks have done in that time. we have gone down hill in a bad way and they have taken our spot at the top.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

KH should get all the credit in the world for scouting and helping to draft guys in the early 90's and for employing a scout who found, scouted and encouraged him to draft datsyuk and zetterberg, but their is no arguement that can be made that KH didnt become GM of a stacked team full of young elite talent and got very lucky with dats and zetts(if it werent luck you would think he could do it again at some point over the last 12 years as that would be the opposite of luck)

No his greatest accomplishment over the last 10 years or more specifically since the cap came into effect was convincing veterans to take less to play in detroit while keeping prospects in the AHL so as to avoid them peaking too early and demanding to be paid more at a younger age. In essence, over the last 7-10 years his best accomplishment has been math, not drafting, not developing, not making smart/brillant trades, not asset mgmt, just math.

give your heads a shake people

 

[MrTaterSalad]

Damien Brunner says hello.

 

[nik jr]

wasnt Federov a superstar with the Red Army before defecting?

And very likely Hakan or his predeccsor discovered Lidstrom.

Seems like were giving credit where it isnt due. I see Holland has been credited with 4 Cups now also despite only being at the helm for 3 and inheriting a ridicolous team.

i think the scout who discovered lidstrom was christer rockstrom.

fyodorov was already a known and hyped prospect. i remember seeing a game from '91 in which the commentators were talking about fyodorov and quoted bobby clarke (GM of flyers) as saying he was the best player in '89 draft, which was also what scouts told devellano.

Not so much lazy as afraid. While other GMs made bold moves, signing the big free agent to huge contracts, Holland refused to do so. He sat on his money. Unbelievably, he even got outbid for Suter, despite sitting on a ton of cash and desperately needs a #1 D-Man. He feared the new CBA would handcuff him.

However, he did a very poor job at predicting how this lockout would impact salaries. The league completely caved, giving up on their $60M year-2 demands, giving teams two compliance buyouts and then allowing them to effectively trade cap space. There is no salary judgement day coming, no cap crunch.

The only question left now is: Will Holland grow a pair? Will he spend money? I haven't seen anything yet to believe that. I wouldn't be surprised if he even let himself get outbid for Brunner.

agree

KH also seems to rely too much on the idea that he can give players less money b/c they want to play here. but the reason they wanted to play here was to win. now that DRW are not contenders, that will probably go away.

 

[PullHard]

Damien Brunner says hello.

Someone posted a link to a story that said Stacy Roest told Wings management to look into Brunner, as he was a guy he thought had the tools to hack it in the NHL. Good for Holland for going after that, but it wasn't his idea.

 

[ScottyBowman]

Im starting to think Hollands success was bc he had Bowman in his back pocket...ever since Bowman left for Chicago, the Wings have led down a spiral path..

I tend to agree with this theory. Holland was appointed GM in 1997-98 but I don't think he had 100% personnel decision making until Bowman left. Ken Holland hasn't made a player for player trade in a looong time. Maybe Robert Lang... I'm talking about legit NHL players, not acquiring scrubs for draft picks. I think too many fans think the world of him but he's just been along for the ride. The most overrated GM in sports. This is an interesting article I read last year about Holland

http://detroitsportsrag.net/ken-hollands-trade-deadline-failure/

 

[MrTaterSalad]

Someone posted a link to a story that said Stacy Roest told Wings management to look into Brunner, as he was a guy he thought had the tools to hack it in the NHL. Good for Holland for going after that, but it wasn't his idea.

And the car wasn't Henry Ford's. Both knew/know how to utilize the strengths of others and build a winning team around them. Both created/create success around them. I doubt any GM anywhere in sports is 100% the grand wizard of their teams success, Ken Holland is a smart man and a qualified GM with equally smart and qualified people around him. Holland has built a network of smart people around him in the Red Wings organization, that's what any good GM will do.

 

[CloneHakanPlease*]

And the car wasn't Henry Ford's. Both knew/know how to utilize the strengths of others and build a winning team around them. Both created/create success around them. I doubt any GM anywhere in sports is 100% the grand wizard of their teams success, Ken Holland is a smart man and a qualified GM with equally smart and qualified people around him. Holland has built a network of smart people around him in the Red Wings organization, that's what any good GM will do.

This. I openly question many of Holland's moves and think he has dropped the ball, but I do have faith he can right the team around if he has the right mindset. I think missing the playoffs could be a great thing for him in the long run. He's become to complacent.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

I tend to agree with this theory. Holland was appointed GM in 1997-98 but I don't think he had 100% personnel decision making until Bowman left. Ken Holland hasn't made a player for player trade in a looong time. Maybe Robert Lang... I'm talking about legit NHL players, not acquiring scrubs for draft picks. I think too many fans think the world of him but he's just been along for the ride. The most overrated GM in sports. This is an interesting article I read last year about Holland

http://detroitsportsrag.net/ken-hollands-trade-deadline-failure/

Quoting an article that makes little sense.

I don't even know where to start on this logic, but it is troubling for various reasons.

I will first say Scotty Bowman is a GREAT coach, maybe the best in the history of sports. However, his accomplishments as a front office type are a different story. The only time he operated with full autonomy was in Buffalo, think it is a coincidence that was his worst stop?

Bowman shows up with teams that are primed to make runs, Chicago is no different and really they are having a great season but their downswing and struggles cause lets face it Chicago has the same track record since their cup we do in the postseason is a lack of moving assets correctly after completely pushing themselves to the cap.

In any event here is Holland's resume.

http://www.eliteprospects.com/staff.php?staff=324

1987-1988 Detroit Red Wings NHL Scout Director of Amateur Scouting
1988-1989 Detroit Red Wings NHL Scout Director of Amateur Scouting
1989-1990 Detroit Red Wings NHL Scout Director of Amateur Scouting
1990-1991 Detroit Red Wings NHL Scout Director of Amateur Scouting
1991-1992 Detroit Red Wings NHL Scout Director of Amateur Scouting
1992-1993 Detroit Red Wings NHL Scout Director of Amateur Scouting
1993-1994 Detroit Red Wings NHL Scout Director of Amateur Scouting
1994-1995 Detroit Red Wings NHL General Manager Co-GM w/ Scotty Bowman & Jim Devellano
1995-1996 Detroit Red Wings NHL General Manager Co-GM w/ Scotty Bowman & Jim Devellano
1996-1997 Detroit Red Wings NHL General Manager Co-GM w/ Scotty Bowman & Jim Devellano
1997-1998 Detroit Red Wings NHL General Manager
1998-1999 Detroit Red Wings NHL General Manager
1999-2000 Detroit Red Wings NHL General Manager
2000-2001 Detroit Red Wings NHL General Manager
2001-2002 Detroit Red Wings NHL General Manager
2002-2003 Detroit Red Wings NHL General Manager
2003-2004 Detroit Red Wings NHL General Manager
2005-2006 Detroit Red Wings NHL General Manager
2006-2007 Detroit Red Wings NHL General Manager
2007-2008 Detroit Red Wings NHL General Manager
2008-2009 Detroit Red Wings NHL General Manager
2009-2010 Detroit Red Wings NHL General Manager
Canada OG Asst. General Manager
2010-2011 Detroit Red Wings NHL General Manager
2011-2012 Detroit Red Wings NHL General Manager
2012-2013 Detroit Red Wings NHL General Manager
2013-2014 Canada OG Asst. General Manager

As the Director of Amateur scouting both he and Devellano were instrumental in hiring Håkan Andersson, although he was recommended by the New York Rangers bound Christer Rockström. They brought him in and approved the hire, so there is that failed logic. The Director of Amateur scouting controlled Andersson, he would later be named the Director of European scouting in 2002-2003.

http://www.eliteprospects.com/staff.php?staff=205 (Andersson)

http://www.eliteprospects.com/staff.php?staff=475 (Nill)

Nill was hired away in 94-95 from the Ottawa Senators where he was a scout to be the Director of Player Development. Interesting as you would see that is the year Holland becomes a Co-GM. The two were already friends and you will notice Jim Nill gets promoted to Associate GM one season after Holland becomes a full GM with total autonomy. Nill's playing career wrapped up in Detroit and Adirondack while a young Holland was the head scout.

Now for a total picture of course you need Devellano, really best I can tell Holland's biggest backer within the organization.

http://www.eliteprospects.com/staff.php?staff=337

Now Devellano lost GM powers in 1990-1991 when he became a Sr VP of Hockey Ops. So in his last months he hired Andersson but maintained a very influential role.

When Bowman came on one of his first famous moves was an attempt to trade Steve Yzerman. Yeah that Steve Yzerman, after hammering out the deal much remains pretty mysterious about this but it has been said several times that Devellano blinked and pulled it back. This would be important because it is very much over ruling a Bowman personnel decision.

On top of that perhaps the most famous trade Bowman is credited with is Shanahan. A trade which Holland recommended be done himself and has been stated over and over. After they failed to reach an agreement with Primeau this was the course of action recommended. You see that is important sure Bowman liked the idea but it isn't like Holland and Devellano could not vote him down. On top of all that what happens directly after this trade. Holland becomes full on GM. Why I must ask does he gain so much power and Bowman lose his clout as Co-GM when the Wings take off? How come they pick him as the guy coming out of the three headed monster? Why do him and Devellano continue the we talk and have all the power if Bowman is the mastermind?

Would be curious if anyone could answer that, but even on pure speculation it would seem the thinking was this bright young Ken Holland was the one continuously recommending the right players and deals. The timeline would suggest that, he had a seat at the table and then was told to run the show.

Bowman remained on as an advisor after he left as coach, living in Buffalo by the way. Of all the things talked over we have Babcock daily phone calls and everything else, they even took on Dave Lewis (disaster) as a pretty much thank you to Bowman and quickly moved in another direction. I have a hard time seeing how a guy in Buffalo controlled and held power over Devellano and Holland when he never was given full power over them and they eventually had just that over him. I think they all had a good working relationship but Bowman being the actual GM and the real driving force doesn't scan at all.

I love Scotty Bowman the coach and I think he is a smart hockey man, but look at Buffalo. I don't buy Scotty Bowman front office genious and I don't think he had near the power a lot of Bowman people think he did in the front office. Why demote him? That is precisely what they did. Why allow Bryan Murray all the reigns but intentionally put in a three headed power system when hiring him?

Holland has four cups as a GM, he is responsible as the Director of Amateur scouting for many of the decisions they made as far as that great generation of Wings, obviously Yzerman choice was made by Devellano (really twice). Any attempt to discredit him doesn't scan he just has continued to gain power and praise from all corners. It really says something that this is his first real bumpy period.

You want to talk about Bowman being the coach that put it all together, I fully agree. But I have trouble connecting the dots that give him the kind of front office power that so many people try to put out there all the time, like I said before it just doesn't scan.

 

[Flowah]

Whatever the reason, what is most infuriating is what I see as a lack of trying anything.

Any objective observer would know that this team has been on a downward trend, a severe one, for a few years now. And what moves have been made to attempt to right that ship? Resigning Sammy? Bert? Cleary? White? CC? Trading for Quincey? We have a lot of "Welcome back!" projects and a lot of mediocre acquisitions. A lot of old, mediocre acquisitions. We make jokes about reacquiring Lilja because it's a real possibility with KH. Scary.

We lost players like Hossa, Lidstrom, Stuart, Rafalski. But we made nothing that even smacks of an attempt to replace those kinds of players. Moreover, talent that we do have in the AHL is kept there for those oldies.

Now I understand that he can't always make the big signings, but I'm not asking for dream trades for every single available player. It's inconceivable to me though that a team with the history and resume of success like the Red Wings, cannot land ONE of those big guys at some point.

The worst is that every year for three years now, we've heard the same excuses. Parity. Price. We like our team. You like the team? This team? You've got blinders on man. Wake up, see that the team needs major changes.

 

[PullHard]

And the car wasn't Henry Ford's. Both knew/know how to utilize the strengths of others and build a winning team around them. Both created/create success around them. I doubt any GM anywhere in sports is 100% the grand wizard of their teams success, Ken Holland is a smart man and a qualified GM with equally smart and qualified people around him. Holland has built a network of smart people around him in the Red Wings organization, that's what any good GM will do.

I don't disagree with this at all, but neither do I understand how this has anything to do with what I said or Damien Brunner.

 

[HTT3*]

Who is saying he done nothing good??? he did it is just falling apart and fast ever since Bowmen left! Say what you want look at the wings and what they have done, now look at what the hawks have done in that time. we have gone down hill in a bad way and they have taken our spot at the top.

I find it funny when people point to other teams that tanked for 10+ years and acquired gobbs of 1st overall picks and say "look what team "X" did".

Yeah, they drafted superstars with their twenty-two 1st overall picks. Damn Holland for not drafting Toews and Kane with his 30th overall pick. DAMN YOU KENNY HOLLAND!!!

Holland sucks cuz he didn't draft Malkin, Crosby, Toews, Doughty, Karlsson, Kane, Alex Pietrangelo, Suter... why o' why can't he draft these guys? Holland's a bum for not drafting top 15 in the NHL draft selection.

While we are at it, lets blame Holland for the crashing economy.

 

[Reds4Life]

I find it funny when people point to other teams that tanked for 10+ years and acquired gobbs of 1st overall picks and say "look what team "X" did".

Yeah, they drafted superstars with their twenty-two 1st overall picks. Damn Holland for not drafting Toews and Kane with his 30th overall pick. DAMN YOU KENNY HOLLAND!!!

Holland sucks cuz he didn't draft Malkin, Crosby, Toews, Doughty, Karlsson, Kane, Alex Pietrangelo, Suter... why o' why can't he draft these guys? Holland's a bum for not drafting top 15 in the NHL draft selection.

While we are at it, lets blame Holland for the crashing economy.

Nope. Holland sucks because he makes no relevant moves. He signs veteran players like Samuelsson to multi-year deals. When was the last time Holland traded away a regular roster player? He just sits in his nest thinking he's got golden eggs. But when Datsyuk is gone after the next season, Red Wings will have no star player.

 

[Sadekuuro]

they even took on Dave Lewis (disaster) as a pretty much thank you to Bowman

Actually, if memory serves, Bowman pushed for Barry Smith. The Wings went with Lewis instead because of his longer tenure with the team.