Did Ken Holland Get Lazy After 2009?

[Stephen]

For a lack of a better way to phrase this question, did the Detroit Red Wings under Ken Holland get lazy after their cup win in 2008 and subsequent finals run in 2009?

In the summer of 2008, the Wings were loaded with prime aged star players, and went out and got even better by stealing away Marian Hossa from their finals opponents. This was a pretty ambitious move that had cup aspirations written all over it. Things looked good for a 2009 repeat and a couple of more cups too.

Obviously they didn't win that second cup, but in the meantime, what happened to Ken Holland's aggressiveness in the offseason in subsequent years? It seems like he just re-signed most of his core (and for some odd reason electing to keep Johan Franzen over a Marian Hossa) and was content to let the opposition around him get better while he sat back with the team he already had. Knowing that the Nicklas Lidstrom window wouldn't be open forever, why didn't they show more interest in unrestricted free agents like Gaborik, Kovalchuk, Sedin and Richards? Sure they had a lot of money tied up in their own guys, but as with any winning team, I'm sure they could have moved those guys for attractive assets to free up salary.

Again, I'm not being critical, and the Wings have been a very competitive team in the meantime anyway, but it just seems like management didn't have the creativity and hunger to keep the franchise optimized for longer. From an outside perspective, it looks like they weren't being that proactive in rejuvenating the core with big ticket acquisitions and were content to tinker.

Anyway, maybe Wings fans can re-cap what their feelings are about the Red Wings direction the past few years.

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[The Zetterberg Era]

No as the simple answer. His job is a lot more complicated than people around here want to make it.

 

[Stephen]

No as the simple answer. His job is a lot more complicated than people around here want to make it.

I'm just surprised he didn't go the "Marian Hossa" route more often on the UFA market the past few years, especially with the forward group getting older and holes opening up on the blueline.

 

[Run the Jewels]

Hossa made a move almost no player considers, the closest one I can recall was the Avs getting Paul Kariya and Teemu Selanne for one season and that was even crazier because they signed very reasonable contracts. Hossa signed for one year but made less than Lidstrom I think because Holland said no one on the roster was going to make more than #5.

I think the Wings publicly said they were more focused on signing Franzen to a new deal over Hossa but it could very easily have been the case that Hossa was going to be a one and done in an attempt to win a Cup before he moved on to sign a new long-term contract. Regardless the Wings focused on signing Franzen and it was hotly debated here about whether that was the correct move. Hossa had a spotty playoff scoring record while Mule was breaking records held by Gordie Howe. Right about now the Hossa deal is looking much better but I think there's a good chance both contracts end up getting bought out this summer. There's a lot of risk tied up into those long term deals that was not there under the previous CBA.

There are areas where Holland can be criticized but accepting a one year contract from Hossa was never a problem. And if Lidstrom and Datsyuk were healthy during the '09 Finals the Wings would have coasted to back to back Cups. It simply wasn't meant to be.

 

[Run the Jewels]

I'm just surprised he didn't go the "Marian Hossa" route more often on the UFA market the past few years, especially with the forward group getting older and holes opening up on the blueline.

As I pointed out above, how many elite forwards in their prime sign one year deals? The only other example I can think of is Kariya and Selanne in '03. They didn't win a Cup either.

 

[Sadekuuro]

I don't think lazy is the right word. But he's definitely not been proactive. He's gun-shy about trades and paying good players the going rate. One begins to wonder if he thinks elite talent is going to just fall out of the sky...

 

[Henkka]

Do we really need a new thread again for the same ****?

 

[Stephen]

As I pointed out above, how many elite forwards in their prime sign one year deals? The only other example I can think of is Kariya and Selanne in '03. They didn't win a Cup either.

I don't mean the one year deal, specifically, I just am referring to the idea of going on the UFA market for a certain tier of player to augment what was existing and working and really being aggressive for success, or even making the pitch for a Rick Nash type auction.

I keep tabs on the Wings from time to time, and just from a cursory glance it looks like the Wings have been happy to let their Cup winning players decline and play out their careers, replacing them with a few kids here and there instead of really keeping up with the arms race. As a result, the team seems to have downgraded a lot.

 

[Tonic]

No as the simple answer. His job is a lot more complicated than people around here want to make it.

I completely agree. I try to armchair GM as little as possible. Some people may not like him, but he is one of the best GMs out there. The fact that we have made the playoffs for 20+ straight years means we haven't got a lot of high draft picks, and the fact that we are/can keep the streak alive is simply bewildering.

It's hard to criticize Holland when we've been such a good team for such a long time. He may be fairly conservative when it comes to trades and signings, but he's won 3 Stanley Cups! Any other GM would KILL to have that on their resume. We might not have the best season this year, but we have a lot of cap space, and with it going down, we will be a good landing spot for some big-name free agents who can't be resigned due to the cap being lowered. I think everybody needs to calm down a little bit and realize that Ken knows what he's doing.

 

[PullHard]

Holland values loyalty. He kept Franzen (the guy he took a chance on, and drafted as a what? 23 or 24 year old?) over the guy who was a hired mercenary. I get it, despite how much it may have come back to bite us in the rump.

 

[GoAwayDanCleary]

He's still one of the best GM's in the game, but he hasn't done anything impressive the past few years.

 

[Run the Jewels]

I don't mean the one year deal, specifically, I just am referring to the idea of going on the UFA market for a certain tier of player to augment what was existing and working and really being aggressive for success, or even making the pitch for a Rick Nash type auction.

I keep tabs on the Wings from time to time, and just from a cursory glance it looks like the Wings have been happy to let their Cup winning players decline and play out their careers, replacing them with a few kids here and there instead of really keeping up with the arms race. As a result, the team seems to have downgraded a lot.

The Wings purportedly kicked the tires on acquiring Rick Nash and Shea Weber! The team had a good plan in place this summer to try to sign Suter and Parise. It didn't work out and the drop off from those guys is pretty steep. They tried to get in on Weber but I'm pretty sure Nashville was like "nah, we got this". Do you spend money just to spend money or do you keep your powder dry and hope a good deal comes along? The Wings have elected to do the latter.

 

[Vladdy84]

I suggest a Holy Hundred Holland Man March!

 

[VladTheImpaler]

Lazy? No I don't think he's been lazy...timid and contempt may be better words.

 

[RedWinger10]

No. Every team rebuilds eventually.

 

[RedWinged]

He does owe Z and Dats..

Another run at the cup.. before they retire.

Whether that comes via rebuilding or reloading is really his choice..

Dat and Z have imo another couple of years of prime time performance, left in them.. so sooner the better..

 

[Shadywing19]

I completely agree. I try to armchair GM as little as possible. Some people may not like him, but he is one of the best GMs out there. The fact that we have made the playoffs for 20+ straight years means we haven't got a lot of high draft picks, and the fact that we are/can keep the streak alive is simply bewildering.

It's hard to criticize Holland when we've been such a good team for such a long time. He may be fairly conservative when it comes to trades and signings, but he's won 3 Stanley Cups! Any other GM would KILL to have that on their resume. We might not have the best season this year, but we have a lot of cap space, and with it going down, we will be a good landing spot for some big-name free agents who can't be resigned due to the cap being lowered. I think everybody needs to calm down a little bit and realize that Ken knows what he's doing.

4 cups! But I agree with you. The man knows what he is doing. Since the start of the season we have had anywhere from 5-10 regulars out of the line up do to injury. To be perfectly honest, were lucky to be where we are right now in the standings. There aren't many teams that could have so many hurt and still battle for a playoff spot. I won't judge this team till were healthy. And still losing. Worst case scenario we stay injury riddled all year. Suck balls. Draft high and pick up a stud. Without skipping a beat were healthy and back to our winning ways next year with a brand new shiny rookie in the lineup haha

 

[MrTaterSalad]

There are areas where Holland can be criticized but accepting a one year contract from Hossa was never a problem. And if Lidstrom and Datsyuk were healthy during the '09 Finals the Wings would have coasted to back to back Cups. It simply wasn't meant to be.

We'd have won that cup with or without Hossa if the league followed its own rules and suspended Malkin for instigating a fight against Z at the end of the game.

 

[Run the Jewels]

We'd have won that cup with or without Hossa if the league followed its own rules and suspended Malkin for instigating a fight against Z at the end of the game.

Eh, it's the playoffs, we all know they let certain things go. If Pavs and Lidstrom were healthy we would have won that series and I have zero doubt in my mind that would have been the case. That was a bigger setback than anything "Geno" did to Z. Did Shea Weber get suspended after going all WWE on Z's head, smashing it into the dasher?

The only guy I remember getting suspended was Chris "Sir Isaac Newton" Pronger for his elbow to the back of Homer's noggin. Pronger obviously has quite the track record when it comes to dirty play.

 

[14ari13]

Eh, it's the playoffs, we all know they let certain things go. If Pavs and Lidstrom were healthy we would have won that series and I have zero doubt in my mind that would have been the case. That was a bigger setback than anything "Geno" did to Z. Did Shea Weber get suspended after going all WWE on Z's head, smashing it into the dasher?

The only guy I remember getting suspended was Chris "Sir Isaac Newton" Pronger for his elbow to the back of Homer's noggin. Pronger obviously has quite the track record when it comes to dirty play.

Bettman stole the cup from us that year. He did all the dirty tricks to steal us from us.

Hossa and Franzen. I really get pissed off when people say that keeping Hossa was better. Hossa disappears in the playoffs.

Yet another thread on Holland

 

[crashman]

Lazy is definitely not the word. I do think his philosophy since 09 has not worked. Coming off the cup win in 08, Hossa fell in our lap. But since then, Holland seems to have wanted to continue the same team building philosophy since the 90s and 2002 cup, which just isn't going to happen with the core we have.

I truly think he's realized that it's not going to work by now, but there's not much that can be done as a quick fix. Despite what some people say, they tried their best to sign Suter, but his heart was set elsewhere.

He's given out some poor contracts (Ericsson, Sammy, Franzen), and missed some nice opportunities on FAs because he's not willing to take a chance. He'd rather re-sign past players, which is starting to boarder on insanity at this point.

I also think he gives Mike Babcock too much power with the roster.

 

[ZDH]

Bettman stole the cup from us that year. He did all the dirty tricks to steal us from us.

Hossa and Franzen. I really get pissed off when people say that keeping Hossa was better. Hossa disappears in the playoffs.

Yet another thread on Holland

Wut

His playoff PPG is almost identical to his regular season PPG.

Hossa is better, there is really no debate here.

 

[Hush]

We have no idea how the intricacies of trading players works, so how can we say whether Ken Holland is lazy? Maybe no one is interested in dealing with the Red Wings because of their success. Maybe Ken Holland is on the phones all day and night trying to cut deals but little things make the deals fall though. We don't know.

Management isn't the problem in Detroit. The problem is the work ethic of a few players who think their roster spot is a given.

 

[Run the Jewels]

Bettman stole the cup from us that year. He did all the dirty tricks to steal us from us.

I know man, he speared Lidstrom in his junk! He injured Pavs' foot! He made sure one stood up for Z when Malkin was making him his *****. That mean Gary Bettman, the biggest meanie since Chris Pronger!

I do not like the commissioner at all but I also do not wear a tin foil hat.

 

[dtones520]

Holland hasn't been lazy at all he has actively been making deals trying to improve this team, the problem is that his efforts haven't worked for once in his career as a GM and other factor have lead us to where we are.

First off, we have the salary cap. After 2009 we had very little cap room remaining to sign elite talent, hence why we didn't bring back Hossa and Franzen. Franzen signed first and Hossa got more from Chicago, a deal we couldn't offer him once Franzen signed. We also can't offer guys unmatchable deals like we did before there was a cap.

Free agency also hasn't been deep with talent. Outside of a few guys, there has been very little solid talent on the free agent market. Because of that there has been a lot of guys who have been overpaid. Lots of guys who would fill a minor role on this team, but would help it, get paid more than what we have been willing to pay for that type of player. The one year we have had a ton of room in free agency, we went hard after our top target and missed out on him. It happens.

Trades have also become so much more costly in this parity filled league.it cost us a first round pick to get Kyle Quincey for gods sake. Plus, being a perennial contender, teams are less likely to trade with us. Look at Columbus and Nash, they were never going to deal him to us.

Low draft picks are catching up with us. Our heist draft pick in Hollands tenure was Jakub Kindl at 19. The cream of the crop talent is already gone by the time we are drafting. Which means we are hoping we hit it big with our scouts finding elite players late in the game. That is always going to be hit or miss.

Anyway, long story short, Holland hasn't been lazy. He has had a lot of things working against him and being good for so long is probably catching up with us. Injuries aren't helping get a judge of how good this team actually is either.