Did Ken Holland Get Lazy After 2009?

redwings85

In Ozzie I trust.
Nov 11, 2008
4,029
13
America's Hat.
We'd have won that cup with or without Hossa if the league followed its own rules and suspended Malkin for instigating a fight against Z at the end of the game.

I personally blame the scheduling changes.

If memory serves correctly, the Wings were suppose to have 4-5 days off before the SFC final, since they finished a 7 game set, but instead gave them a 2-3 instead.

Back on topic tho... Holland has attempted to do signings an other crap, can't always blame him when players decide to go elsewhere or prices tags are way too high in his books.
 

RedWingsNow*

Guest
I think Kenny Holland started believing too much of the things being written about him and he doubled down on loyallty to vets, thinking that's why people come to Detroit.

No, Kenny. They came to Detroit because Detroit was a winner.

I also think Franzen vs Hossa will go down as the move that showed he lost his golden touch.

Understanding how tough the limits were... it was still a choice.
Holland chose Franzen/Hudler/Sammy over Hossa. And in the end, Hudler and Sammy left anyway. Somewhat understandable. But the wrong decision == especially with the way it turned out for Sammy and Hudler.

And then maybe, to save money, call up a Dick Axelsson or Jan Mursak -- or even Igor Grigorenko -- to skate with your club in 9-10 -- instead of bringing back Jason Williams or resigning Todd Bertuzzi.

It wasn't was easy to win back-to-back cups back when a team could spend as much as it wanted.
 

crashman

Guest
I think Kenny Holland started believing too much of the things being written about him and he doubled down on loyallty to vets, thinking that's why people come to Detroit.

No, Kenny. They came to Detroit because Detroit was a winner.

I also think Franzen vs Hossa will go down as the move that showed he lost his golden touch.

Understanding how tough the limits were... it was still a choice.
Holland chose Franzen/Hudler/Sammy over Hossa. And in the end, Hudler and Sammy left anyway. Somewhat understandable. But the wrong decision == especially with the way it turned out for Sammy and Hudler.

And then maybe, to save money, call up a Dick Axelsson or Jan Mursak -- or even Igor Grigorenko -- to skate with your club in 9-10 -- instead of bringing back Jason Williams or resigning Todd Bertuzzi.

It wasn't was easy to win back-to-back cups back when a team could spend as much as it wanted.

I agree.

Even the most diehard Holland supporters should be able to admit that a big part this teams success was pure luck.
 

ScottyBowman

Registered User
Mar 10, 2003
2,361
0
Detroit
Visit site
Yes. Ken Holland got lazy. He never makes a trade or does anything outside the box. He limits his deals to draft picks for players. Next thing you know, we have a boat load of AHL players in the lineup every night. I can't believe people got excited to have Patrick Eaves back on the ice. This is how low we've reached.
 
Jul 30, 2005
17,660
4,588
I mean, what is location, really
I'm not a huge Holland fan, but "lazy" is a ridiculous characterization. The problem is that the NHL has become a low-movement league; there aren't many trades, and there are almost NEVER trades for very good players. He's just doing what he can, which is almost nothing. He can draft players and try to sign FAs.

You can point to the Parise/Suter thing, but it's come out in the press that they were using Detroit/everybody else to increase the offers they got from the Wild and nothing more. They were never coming to Detroit.

You can point to the Franzen/Hossa thing, but hindsight is 20/20. Franzen has a very good player at the time of that contract. Franzen vs Hossa was a real debate back then, and opinions were split. He picked the one he thought could become a power forward goal scorer. Who was he to know that Franzen would become a soft finesse guy when he hadn't played that way?

Back to the main point, I think many of you don't recognize that the rules of the game in the NHL have changed. Your draft picks are your lifeblood, you can very rarely swing beneficial trades (most will be equivalent value or negative net value to fill a need), and 15-20 teams are trying to sign every decent free agent. If your team isn't where you want it, it's difficult to take direct action to fix it in the short term. If you do, there's still a good chance that you're going to piss away assets in acquiring that fix. This ensures that although you're not bad right now, you WILL be bad later on. Every GM is trying to avoid that tradeoff.

It's not that Ken Holland is lazy, it's that there isn't that much for (sane/not ridiculously aggressive) GMs to do in the new NHL.
 

icKx

Vanek 4 Prez
May 7, 2010
3,483
2
Intertubes
Lazy? No. Complacent? Yes.

His strategy of holding prospects back until they are 24 just to save on the first deal is silly and counterproductive.

Holland thinks cap space is an end unto itself.
 

Henkka

Registered User
Jan 31, 2004
31,077
12,078
Tampere, Finland
I'm not a huge Holland fan, but "lazy" is a ridiculous characterization. The problem is that the NHL has become a low-movement league; there aren't many trades, and there are almost NEVER trades for very good players. He's just doing what he can, which is almost nothing. He can draft players and try to sign FAs.

You can point to the Parise/Suter thing, but it's come out in the press that they were using Detroit/everybody else to increase the offers they got from the Wild and nothing more. They were never coming to Detroit.

You can point to the Franzen/Hossa thing, but hindsight is 20/20. Franzen has a very good player at the time of that contract. Franzen vs Hossa was a real debate back then, and opinions were split. He picked the one he thought could become a power forward goal scorer. Who was he to know that Franzen would become a soft finesse guy when he hadn't played that way?

Back to the main point, I think many of you don't recognize that the rules of the game in the NHL have changed. Your draft picks are your lifeblood, you can very rarely swing beneficial trades (most will be equivalent value or negative net value to fill a need), and 15-20 teams are trying to sign every decent free agent. If your team isn't where you want it, it's difficult to take direct action to fix it in the short term. If you do, there's still a good chance that you're going to piss away assets in acquiring that fix. This ensures that although you're not bad right now, you WILL be bad later on. Every GM is trying to avoid that tradeoff.

It's not that Ken Holland is lazy, it's that there isn't that much for (sane/not ridiculously aggressive) GMs to do in the new NHL.

Someone has some sense in here.
 

Ricelund

̶W̶e̶ ̶l̶i̶k̶e̶ ̶o̶u̶r̶ ̶t̶e̶a̶m̶
Apr 16, 2006
8,712
4,617
New York, NY
I don't think he got "lazy." He's tried and failed multiple times over the last few years via free agency and trade: Jovanovski, Upshall, Fleischmann, Parise, Suter, Wisniewski, Nash, Salo… all guys they tried for that got away for whatever reason.

Has Holland's inactivity been incredibly frustrating? For sure -- but I don't think it's a lack of trying. He's made a few mistakes: Samuelsson (which I think would've been a good signing had they signed Suter like they planned on), Quincey (who's not as terrible as we initially thought), and, of course, Franzen (and "depth") over Hossa.
 
Jul 30, 2005
17,660
4,588
I mean, what is location, really
Lazy? No. Complacent? Yes.

His strategy of holding prospects back until they are 24 just to save on the first deal is silly and counterproductive.

Holland thinks cap space is an end unto itself.
I think Holland has it in his head that he can build saved cap space up to another Marian Hossa. I don't think that's very realistic, but I will admit that he's done it before.
 

Bench

3 is a good start
Aug 14, 2011
21,202
14,898
crease
Franzen (and "depth") over Hossa.

This gets drilled into every discussion about Franzen's contract, but...

Thank you for adding the depth part. I don't think anybody can reasonably compare the two as equal parts, considering their salary is $20 million in difference. Hossa was always considered the superior player and was paid like it. $20 million is enough to add a guy like Hudler, even on his new deal for 5 years. So the debate was always Hudler (plus another guy at the time, actually) + Franzen or Hossa.

I wish Hossa was still on the Wings like everybody else, but holy smokes, it gets old hearing that same ol' trope dragged out in every thread about Holland and Franzen.
 

Ricelund

̶W̶e̶ ̶l̶i̶k̶e̶ ̶o̶u̶r̶ ̶t̶e̶a̶m̶
Apr 16, 2006
8,712
4,617
New York, NY
I wish Hossa was still on the Wings like everybody else, but holy smokes, it gets old hearing that same ol' trope dragged out in every thread about Holland and Franzen.
I'm tired of hearing it too, but I think most people feel that when a player like Hossa (a guy who is routinely one of the best wingers in the game, both offensively and defensively) falls into your lap, you do everything in your power to keep him, even if that means trading a roster player to clear space -- something Holland wouldn't do.
 

Bench

3 is a good start
Aug 14, 2011
21,202
14,898
crease
I'm tired of hearing it too, but I think most people feel that when a player like Hossa (a guy who is routinely one of the best wingers in the game, both offensively and defensively) falls into your lap, you do everything in your power to keep him, even if that means trading a roster player to clear space -- something Holland wouldn't do.

I'm not in any particular disagreement there. Hossa is awesome. I would have rolled out the red carpet and told Franzen he'd have to settle for a shorter deal, because you know, Hossa.

But don't tell anybody I said that. I have an image to keep up.
 

The Zetterberg Era

Ball Hockey Sucks
Nov 8, 2011
40,957
11,577
Ft. Myers, FL
If prospects are lifeblood then this roster has anemia.

I think you should get more familiar with a lot of our prospects. Then consider where they are drafted, they have a top 10 system, really top 5 in my opinion and that is remarkable. They need to do a better job right now with a direction, Holland said coming out of the lockout he was done moving draft picks all the time and they needed to develop a better system. He has done that, now he needs to figure out what to do with the bottleneck that is forming. Still it is impressive how quickly they have loaded that, the 2011 draft has the potential to be the best draft class since 1989.
 

The Zetterberg Era

Ball Hockey Sucks
Nov 8, 2011
40,957
11,577
Ft. Myers, FL
I think Holland has it in his head that he can build saved cap space up to another Marian Hossa. I don't think that's very realistic, but I will admit that he's done it before.

I am curious with the limits if some of the big time stars will start taking shorter contracts with huge figures. Hossa made 7.45 million that year. You could get a guy to sign the one off so he can sign the max length. Do you think Getzlaf at 9 million for a year and then extending midway through the season to a more managable figure going forward is impossible? I am curious to see if it happens more often. They can get the extra year from the team that owns them the next season and get a huge one year deal, would be an interesting approach.
 

Bench

3 is a good start
Aug 14, 2011
21,202
14,898
crease
I am curious with the limits if some of the big time stars will start taking shorter contracts with huge figures. Hossa made 7.45 million that year. You could get a guy to sign the one off so he can sign the max length. Do you think Getzlaf at 9 million for a year and then extending midway through the season to a more managable figure going forward is impossible? I am curious to see if it happens more often. They can get the extra year from the team that owns them the next season and get a huge one year deal, would be an interesting approach.

Risky for a player. What if Hossa had his concussion issue from last season during his 1 year stint? Doubt he would have got that $60 million dollar payday this off-season.
 

The Zetterberg Era

Ball Hockey Sucks
Nov 8, 2011
40,957
11,577
Ft. Myers, FL
This gets drilled into every discussion about Franzen's contract, but...

Thank you for adding the depth part. I don't think anybody can reasonably compare the two as equal parts, considering their salary is $20 million in difference. Hossa was always considered the superior player and was paid like it. $20 million is enough to add a guy like Hudler, even on his new deal for 5 years. So the debate was always Hudler (plus another guy at the time, actually) + Franzen or Hossa.

I wish Hossa was still on the Wings like everybody else, but holy smokes, it gets old hearing that same ol' trope dragged out in every thread about Holland and Franzen.

Hossa also came as something of a packaged deal with Kopecky at the time. We have no idea what he actually asked the Wings for. There was talk at the time the wanted to get both Franzen and Hossa, but it didn't work out and some of that might have been his actual demands from Detroit. We don't know that he would have taken the same offer from Detroit that he took in Chicago. I also find this funny since not only is it a 20 million difference but Hossa's contract carries considerable risk, even more than Franzen in my opinion at this point. The guy has major shoulder issues even back then and still has far less production in the playoffs even if Franzen has been slumping to help the argument.
 

The Zetterberg Era

Ball Hockey Sucks
Nov 8, 2011
40,957
11,577
Ft. Myers, FL
Risky for a player. What if Hossa had his concussion issue from last season during his 1 year stint? Doubt he would have got that $60 million dollar payday this off-season.

It is, but I am just saying I could see it happen with the current agreement. It is essentially a good way to sign a front loaded nine year deal if the player really wants to go that route.

If we have 22 players under contract and are at 53 million I know unlikely. But you can seriously approach him with a we want to do a one year deal at 10 million and extend you in season. I know I would listen if I was Getzlaf, that is what a four month risk?

Not crystal clear on the rules, but I could see that loophole existing.
 

The Zetterberg Era

Ball Hockey Sucks
Nov 8, 2011
40,957
11,577
Ft. Myers, FL
All the teams at this point have poored over the new CBA. There is a way around every system unless Harvey Spector draws the contract. :laugh:

I expect something like this to be the loophole. The fact as a complete novice I am throwing that out there, would suggest they should have closed it, but alas this is the NHL and I have no such faith. So if it is there I would like us to be the team to first exploit it.
 

icKx

Vanek 4 Prez
May 7, 2010
3,483
2
Intertubes
I think you should get more familiar with a lot of our prospects. Then consider where they are drafted, they have a top 10 system, really top 5 in my opinion and that is remarkable. They need to do a better job right now with a direction, Holland said coming out of the lockout he was done moving draft picks all the time and they needed to develop a better system. He has done that, now he needs to figure out what to do with the bottleneck that is forming. Still it is impressive how quickly they have loaded that, the 2011 draft has the potential to be the best draft class since 1989.

I actually wasn't criticizing the prospect pool but rather the fact that up until this cluster**** of a season none of this supposed lifeblood was being infused.

What's the point of stockpiling youngsters and then signing vets to multi-year deals to fill the roster spots? It just makes no sense.
 

Bench

3 is a good start
Aug 14, 2011
21,202
14,898
crease
All the teams at this point have poored over the new CBA. There is a way around every system unless Harvey Spector draws the contract. :laugh:

I expect something like this to be the loophole. The fact as a complete novice I am throwing that out there, would suggest they should have closed it, but alas this is the NHL and I have no such faith. So if it is there I would like us to be the team to first exploit it.

It's not a bad idea. I think Holland is also one of the few GMs a player would trust to honor his word when he says, "We promise we'll give you a huge deal in a few months."

Holmgren... no so much.
 

Hckytwn

Don't do it Kenny...
Jul 9, 2010
854
4
Seattle, WA
Not so much lazy as afraid. While other GMs made bold moves, signing the big free agent to huge contracts, Holland refused to do so. He sat on his money. Unbelievably, he even got outbid for Suter, despite sitting on a ton of cash and desperately needs a #1 D-Man. He feared the new CBA would handcuff him.

However, he did a very poor job at predicting how this lockout would impact salaries. The league completely caved, giving up on their $60M year-2 demands, giving teams two compliance buyouts and then allowing them to effectively trade cap space. There is no salary judgement day coming, no cap crunch. :shakehead

The only question left now is: Will Holland grow a pair? Will he spend money? I haven't seen anything yet to believe that. I wouldn't be surprised if he even let himself get outbid for Brunner.
 

SoupNazi

Serenity now. Insanity later.
Feb 6, 2010
26,341
14,039
Not so much lazy as afraid. While other GMs made bold moves, signing the big free agent to huge contracts, Holland refused to do so. He sat on his money. Unbelievably, he even got outbid for Suter, despite sitting on a ton of cash and desperately needs a #1 D-Man. He feared the new CBA would handcuff him.

However, he did a very poor job at predicting how this lockout would impact salaries. The league completely caved, giving up on their $60M year-2 demands, giving teams two compliance buyouts and then allowing them to effectively trade cap space. There is no salary judgement day coming, no cap crunch. :shakehead

The only question left now is: Will Holland grow a pair? Will he spend money? I haven't seen anything yet to believe that. I wouldn't be surprised if he even let himself get outbid for Brunner.

I agree with everything, but I doubt Holland is stupid enough to let Brunner get to UFA.
 

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad

-->