Did Kadri develop because of good Leafs player management/development or despite it?

[Daisy Jane]

I always thought the Kadri quotes weren't about his NHL career being over, they were about his career being over with the Leafs.

He cleaned up his act and has turned into a good responsible two way player, he still has his blemishes like any player he can be a little streaky but at this point everyone seems to think he's a good fit for the team.

The only issue I ever have with Kadri is I get fed up that when he's having a slump, something all good players do some of his supporters go on the warpath and blame everyone around him.

i think if that were the case, i think maybe they would have said "with the Leafs." I mean we'll obviously won't know. but i think whatever the problem(s) was, it was serious that it could have resulted in him washing out. that doesn't mean other teams wouldn't take him on and sign him, but again, if the issues (whatever they were) weren't being addressed or Kadri didn't turn him around how much patience would those other teams have? as i've said other players washed out for less.

why some people won't acknowledge that, is beyond me, but if people bring it up, it's attacking Kadri or something.

to your second point - exactly.

 

[Pookie]

I always thought the Kadri quotes weren't about his NHL career being over, they were about his career being over with the Leafs.

He cleaned up his act and has turned into a good responsible two way player, he still has his blemishes like any player he can be a little streaky but at this point everyone seems to think he's a good fit for the team.

The only issue I ever have with Kadri is I get fed up that when he's having a slump, something all good players do some of his supporters go on the warpath and blame everyone around him.

Lou is quoted directly as saying the NHL player part.

Of course, it’s up to anyone to believe it or not. But it’s there.

 

[Pookie]

His career as a Maple Leaf maybe sure but his career as an NHL player? No I really don't think so.

Wtf does being a current NHLer have to do with anything? Being at a crossroads is about where your future will be.

As for NHL or not, you and Lou disagree. Not surprising. Lou has extensive experience and insight and well...

You do realize you are arguing with those that issued the quotes and not me right? Like I don’t hang around the team or have any intimate knowledge of the situation. Like you.

We just have to rely on what people close to the situation, including the GM, President, journalists who don’t want to sued for libel, Kadri himself and his parents say about it.

 

[Pookie]

i think if that were the case, i think maybe they would have said "with the Leafs." I mean we'll obviously won't know. but i think whatever the problem(s) was, it was serious that it could have resulted in him washing out. that doesn't mean other teams wouldn't take him on and sign him, but again, if the issues (whatever they were) weren't being addressed or Kadri didn't turn him around how much patience would those other teams have? as i've said other players washed out for less.

why some people won't acknowledge that, is beyond me, but if people bring it up, it's attacking Kadri or something.

to your second point - exactly.

The thing is, Lou offered up “if you don’t do this, you won’t be an NHL hockey player”.

Did he misspeak? Maybe. But it’s been online for about a year now with no correction.

It was pretty clear that this was a serious thing.

Only have to look at Lupul to see how it could have turned. .

 

[IBeL34f]

I'm going to preface this by admitting that no one has ever offered me money to attempt to motivate/develop a young athlete.

Having said that, if I were trying to convince someone that they need to play things by my rules if they wish to achieve their highest pinnacle of success, I would make sure they believed that the entire League operated by those same rules.

What's the point of telling Kadri, "What you're doing won't work here, for us, but other people are gonna be totally fine with it"? - If you need to stress something so badly, make sure it's all or nothing, so at least the point gets through.

 

[Liminality]

The thing is, Lou offered up “if you don’t do this, you won’t be an NHL hockey player”.

Did he misspeak? Maybe. But it’s been online for about a year now with no correction.

It was pretty clear that this was a serious thing.

Only have to look at Lupul to see how it could have turned. .

Lupul averaged 47 games for the Leafs per season. I think it would have been a lot harder to justify throwing away Kadri into obscurity when he did average 0.61 points per game by the age of 25. He would have found a home as a offensive forward on another team somewhere.

 

[Pookie]

Lupul averaged 47 games for the Leafs per season. I think it would have been a lot harder to justify throwing away Kadri into obscurity when he did average 0.61 points per game by the age of 25. He would have found a home as a offensive forward on another team somewhere.

Maybe.

I’m just quoting Lou’s opinion on the subject

 

[Pookie]

I'm going to preface this by admitting that no one has ever offered me money to attempt to motivate/develop a young athlete.

Having said that, if I were trying to convince someone that they need to play things by my rules if they wish to achieve their highest pinnacle of success, I would make sure they believed that the entire League operated by those same rules.

What's the point of telling Kadri, "What you're doing won't work here, for us, but other people are gonna be totally fine with it"? - If you need to stress something so badly, make sure it's all or nothing, so at least the point gets through.

Indeed.

And we can’t know how serious it would have been as he fortunately chose the right path at the cross roads. He had a decent season. Didn’t get suspended by the team and made changes.

If he comes off that team issued suspension and continues the “off ice excess” (quoted as it was noted by the team) to get another one... who knows ? Maybe someone takes a reclamation project. Maybe they don’t.

We don’t have to speculate. We just have to acknowledge that it was serious because everyone... including him... told us so.

 

[Bluelines]

How about go back and watch Oprah and leave the pop psychology to someone who has a better grasp of life and relationship.

LOL , mature response.

You infer that watching Oprah is a bad thing? Gleaning information from a bootstraped wealthy woman who came from extreme poverty, abuse and grew up in a racially biased community. A woman who has the ear of multiple world leaders, could call the former president and have him take the call, could call the head of any movie or TV company and have them take the call, who's rubbed elbows with the Dalai Lama, Barak Obama, Ellen, George Clooney, and so on ... inspired Millions to read books (Oprah's Book of the Month club) ... yeah I probably won't learn anything from her, what has she ever done?

Clearly you are the smartest person you know... I shall wait with baited breath your next nugget of wisdom.

 

[Bluelines]

What the heck is Orange-Red anyways?

I dunno and I don't want to know, if I ask her to explain, it will start a whole debate on colors again. She has told me in the past that there is a color called Salmon, Peach, Chocolate, etc. To which I told her, if you can eat it, its not a color, its a food. To which she said something I can't repeat on this forum with out it getting *******.

I guess if colors are the worst thing me and the wife have to disagree on .... life is good.

 

[Menzinger]

but no one said "this is fine" I can't speak for everyone else - but what I am saying is that regardless of what people feel about aspects of the organization - we can't just lop off the bits we don't like in the story, or paint it over like "well he's dumbo, he's stupid who cares either."

i mean, for god sakes, we see it now with Nylander and Marner + Babcock. People are legitimately losing their poop that Babcock are hard on those two players, that sometimes Babcock throws them under the bus, and if for whatever reason Babcock leaves I would bet a healthy amount of money that people would be whatever Will + Mitch do would be despite of him.

I think it's incredibly disingenuous to say that Kadri just happened to be where he is without any help from anyone in the organization until Babcock, Shanahan and Lamoriello showed up. I also think it's incredible shortsided to believe that all Babcock did was play him more and in the centre, and it just clicked. and I think its crazy that when the actual people involved have several interviews and state the facts as we know him, people can't accept that, or they focus on the literal meaning. (again. for example. Lamoriello + Shanahan saying Naz needed to shape up or he won't be a NHL player and people going ooh noo. but he was a player you just hate naz - as if that's the only meaning, or that's what they meant).

Oh I agree that Kadri benefited from the current coaching group (I think I mentioned as much in my first post in the thread), but the question we’ve been discussing also involves the 2008-2014 period (where Kadri underwent most of his development as a player under the Leafs system), and that period clearly wasn’t an ideal
Situation for any young player to be in.

 

[Pookie]

I dunno and I don't want to know, if I ask her to explain, it will start a whole debate on colors again. She has told me in the past that there is a color called Salmon, Peach, Chocolate, etc. To which I told her, if you can eat it, its not a color, its a food. To which she said something I can't repeat on this forum with out it getting *******.

I guess if colors are the worst thing me and the wife have to disagree on .... life is good.

I remember a comedian talking about gender differences in describing colours.

Now I have to be careful, I only heard it once and we know how “one off” quotes are perceived by some here.

However, the comedian highlighted that women tend to have a name for every colour.

That’s aqua saffire.

Men just add “y” or “ish” to everything.

That’s bluey-greenish

 

[Bluelines]

I remember a comedian talking about gender differences in describing colours.

Now I have to be careful, I only heard it once and we know how “one off” quotes are perceived by some here.

However, the comedian highlighted that women tend to have a name for every colour.

That’s aqua saffire.

Men just add “y” or “ish” to everything.

That’s bluey-greenish

LOL, I like where you were going with it but no man has ever said bluey- greenish, it's either blue or its green. Kinda surprised Daisy has not chimed in.

 

[Daisy Jane]

LOL, I like where you were going with it but no man has ever said bluey- greenish, it's either blue or its green. Kinda surprised Daisy has not chimed in.

i am trying really hard not to

 

[Pookie]

i am trying really hard not to

Think of a calm bluish ocean.

 

[stickty111]

I think the problem is some of the Bozak fans had a hard time accepting that Kadri is better then their favorite player.
Its also annoying how the Bozak supporters blame someone else for Bozak's defensive problems.
Another problem is the Kadri critics cant believe that Kadri is a great player so they try to pretend he just became good all of a sudden. It doesnt help when they say things like "role player" or say false stuff of another poster saying he is worth 7-8 million. This includes stuff like "tire pumping to trade him"
The best is when they hide their agenda by saying "I dont why you guys wont give him credit" to the supporters. Its like sarcastically throwing their argument back at the supporters pretending to show that the critics were always giving him praise which is furthest from the truth.

 

[Daisy Jane]

Oh I agree that Kadri benefited from the current coaching group (I think I mentioned as much in my first post in the thread), but the question we’ve been discussing also involves the 2008-2014 period (where Kadri underwent most of his development as a player under the Leafs system), and that period clearly wasn’t an ideal
Situation for any young player to be in.

but that's my point. i find it very hard to believe. regardless of how i feel about them, that out of the three coaches that has spent the most time with Kadri that they didn't have any impact or influence on his game at all (or at least start putting things in his head). I mean Lord knows i had some crap teachers and coaches, but you always learn something from those situations and apply them if it makes sense.

again you don't lop off the "crap" parts 09-14 and go well Kadri just taught himself, everything else is gravy.

 

[Menzinger]

but that's my point. i find it very hard to believe. regardless of how i feel about them, that out of the three coaches that has spent the most time with Kadri that they didn't have any impact or influence on his game at all (or at least start putting things in his head). I mean Lord knows i had some crap teachers and coaches, but you always learn something from those situations and apply them if it makes sense.

again you don't lop off the "crap" parts 09-14 and go well Kadri just taught himself, everything else is gravy.

Sure, he may have learned/benefited in some ways, yet at the same time imo the evidence overwhelmingly suggests the Leafs were overall horrible at developing young talent during that period. So circling back to the original thread question id still say he developed the way he has mostly in spite of the Leafs organization rather than as a result of their efforts.

 

[Ignatius Reilly]

but that's my point. i find it very hard to believe. regardless of how i feel about them, that out of the three coaches that has spent the most time with Kadri that they didn't have any impact or influence on his game at all (or at least start putting things in his head). I mean Lord knows i had some crap teachers and coaches, but you always learn something from those situations and apply them if it makes sense.

again you don't lop off the "crap" parts 09-14 and go well Kadri just taught himself, everything else is gravy.

If your point is that Kadri got some positives out of the coaches pre-Babs, I don't think many would argue that. Of course some would, that's the beauty of HFB!

I think he could have gotten a lot more, a lot sooner, a lot faster if we'd already had Babs coaching when we drafted him though.

I doubt he would have spent significantly different amounts of time up with the Leafs vs. down in the Knights and Marlies though. He needed some time there.

 

[leaffaninvancouver]

I think the problem is some of the Bozak fans had a hard time accepting that Kadri is better then their favorite player.
Its also annoying how the Bozak supporters blame someone else for Bozak's defensive problems.
Another problem is the Kadri critics cant believe that Kadri is a great player so they try to pretend he just became good all of a sudden. It doesnt help when they say things like "role player" or say false stuff of another poster saying he is worth 7-8 million. This includes stuff like "tire pumping to trade him"
The best is when they hide their agenda by saying "I dont why you guys wont give him credit" to the supporters. Its like sarcastically throwing their argument back at the supporters pretending to show that the critics were always giving him praise which is furthest from the truth.

Stop projecting, Bozak get's blamed for his short comings. The only player who doesn't on the entire team is Kadri. No one goes to ludicrous lengths to excuse Bozak's bad play, the only player who gets the treatment you're describing is Kadri. Kadri is the only player who has a band of like 5-6 posters who tear apart any player to justify Kadri's short comings or slumps.

Kadri is a fantastic guy to have on the team but his band of zealots have poisoned this board and I'm far from the only poster who thinks this.

 

[diceman934]

Lou is quoted directly as saying the NHL player part.

Of course, it’s up to anyone to believe it or not. But it’s there.

For A person who claims he likes Kadri now you sure spend a lot of time attempting to disprove your own claim.

Constantly bringing up old news to discredit him.

I love Kadri always have he is and always has been a very skilled player who always played for keeps and dispite your continued attempts to post nonsense about Kadri at a crossroad in his NHL career it was never in jeopardy at all never!

 

[cupcrazyman]

It's Babcock's way or the highway !

 

[Pookie]

For A person who claims he likes Kadri now you sure spend a lot of time attempting to disprove your own claim.

Constantly bringing up old news to discredit him.
!

1. Check the thread title. That might give you a clue as to why we are chatting about the past

2. Discredit? Overcoming a personal struggle to achieve success is discrediting him?

 

[diceman934]

1. Check the thread title. That might give you a clue as to why we are chatting about the past

2. Discredit? Overcoming a personal struggle to achieve success is discrediting him?

Check your post history for the reason why at every turn you take an opportunity to post past history about Kadri like it is relevant today.

How about addressing the whole bs about his career being over if the Leafs did not turn his life around crap.

Plain to see you hate Kadri now and before so why the charade?

 

[PromisedLand]

I honestly have no idea how anybody can look at the Leafs player development system 2008-2014 and say “this is fine”.

Leafs likely had the worst system in the league, the fact that they managed to develop anybody in that time frame is quite frankly a miracle.

I personally feel all of Rielly, Kadri and Gardiner could have been much much better if it had not been for terrible development