Did Babcock have it right to begin with?

[BertCorbeau]

What divison?

A made-up division.

I'd take Babcock's Leafs over Keefe's curl-up-and-die version any day but that's just me..

So you'd take Bozak, Gardiner, JVR, and all of those guys back?

 

[BertCorbeau]

Yeah but I never said anything about Marner.

Strawman arguments they call that, no?

I don't know moderator-lingo though so I may be wrong here..

Making an assumption isn't really a straw man .. I was happy to educate you on leadership though!

 

[Bomber0104]

So you'd take Bozak, Gardiner, JVR, and all of those guys back?

I'd take that version of Leafs against this one in a best-of-seven, yes.

The same way Bergevin took his team against ours.

Strong teams beat weak teams most of the time.

 

[Bomber0104]

Making an assumption isn't really a straw man .. I was happy to educate you on leadership though!

There's next to nobody on the Leafs that demonstrates any real leadership.

Only merchants and mercenaries.

I'd be happy to point out real examples throughout the league, present and past if you'd like...

 

[Stonehands1990]

Well we're talking about leadership.. Effective leadership is most effective when the personalities of the team are understood. Core personality traits are reflective of their upbringing which has changed through each generation. The coaches ability to adapt and understand those personalities in the room can have a major impact on how the team performs.

Typically speaking the younger generations respond better to a leadership style that lends itself to input and feedback which leads to increased motivation and team commitment, rather than just dictation and fear mongering tactics. Conclusively it's no surprise that the young Leafs eventually tuned Babcock out because he wouldn't adapt to their personalities.

Babcock has the resume that gave him the ego to say it's his way or not. But he failed massively in his leadership style with this group because he didn't adapt his style to effectively motivate them. It's probably why the Red Wings were successful in his tenure, because it was an older team and that style of leadership motivated them appropriately.

Babcock‘s post graduate study was Sports Psychology. I’m gonna go ahead and say he knew how to handle personalities. As we’ve seen since his departure this group lacks mental toughness

 

[Willchel Marlynder]

Funny enough. I think both Keefe and Babcock were potentially wrong. And it all comes down to timing.

During the time that Babcock was coach we were a deeper team, largely due to our best players being on their ELCs. As a result, we had the depth behind them, to put them together more often and not be hurt by it

During Keefe's tenure here we have not been a very deep team, for the opposite reason. As a result, putting our best two players on the sand line has thinned out the lines even more than they need to be imo

I will say I am generally a supporter of going back to Matthews/Nylander and Tavares/Marner. I prefer the balance of lines 1 vs 2 this way better, I like that it forces to teams to defend hard mins against 2 lines, and I think it maximizes both Tavares and Nylander as their individual skill sets imo mesh better with Marner and Matthews respectively.

Unfortunately Keefe wants to play Matthews and Marner 30 minutes a night. Even when they're gassed Keefe will throw them out there

 

[Dekes For Days]

Get over Lou/Babs.
The only thing that matters is the disaster created by Wonder Boy.

I wasn't the one who brought up Lou or Babcock, and this thread is literally about Babcock. There is no disaster. There's a great team created by Dubas.

 

[francis246]

So you'd take Bozak, Gardiner, JVR, and all of those guys back?

yes, those players were good. Bozak was a reliable center. Imagine if we kept Bozak and Kadri. Matthews, JT, Kadri, Bozak down the middle would have been the best center ice in the league.

 

[Racer88]

I wasn't the one who brought up Lou or Babcock, and this thread is literally about Babcock. There is no disaster. There's a great team created by Dubas.

A great team that can’t get the job done when it matters……..is that really a great team?

 

[sdf]

Have it right to begin with? What?

 

[Dekes For Days]

A great team that can’t get the job done when it matters……..is that really a great team?

A great team that, despite losing one of the biggest pieces on the team (on top of the multiple other injuries being dealt with), barely lost to the cup finalists, after outplaying and outscoring them.

 

[Blowfish]

Have it right to begin with? What?

Molding the young prospects...versus giving them free rein.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Imagine if we kept Bozak and Kadri. Matthews, JT, Kadri, Bozak down the middle would have been the best center ice in the league.

So essentially, imagine if the salary cap didn't exist.

 

[DarkKnight]

So essentially, imagine if the salary cap didn't exist.

Imagine if we had a GM who could manage it properly.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Imagine if we had a GM who could manage it properly.

We do. No imagining necessary. Keeping Bozak at 5m to be a 4th line center is not managing the cap properly.

 

[sdf]

Molding the young prospects...versus giving them free rein.

I confused the word begin with "being"

 

[sparxx87]

He had his quirks and was pretty unlikable to some, but he knows the game and understands the chess match.

Contrast with Keefe who can’t counter basic tactical adjustments and the line between competency and incompetency is pretty clear.

 

[DarkKnight]

We do. No imagining necessary. Keeping Bozak at 5m to be a 4th line center is not managing the cap properly.

Lightning sign Brayden Point to eight-year, $76M extension

You gave him a A didn’t you?

 

[francis246]

So essentially, imagine if the salary cap didn't exist.

we could have made it work, if Nylander and Marner were bridged and you let go of Jake Gardiner. Maybe we lose Johnsson still, but maybe we get to keep Connor Brown. Those contracts will forever be the detriment

 

[Dekes For Days]

Lightning sign Brayden Point to eight-year, $76M extension
You gave him a A didn’t you?

Gave who an A? Not sure what another team signing their player has to do with Dubas or keeping Bozak as a 5m 4th line center.

we could have made it work

The ability to make something fit by making a series of detrimental moves doesn't change the fact that we shouldn't be trying to make it work, because a 5m 4th line center is a waste, especially when you have a top-6 deserving of high-end minutes.

 

[Pookie]

Leafs needed discipline and structure. Babcock provided it. That’s why he was recruited and paid handsomely.

(Same with Lou)

Problem is the star players revolted. Wanted more of a say. Wanted more ice time. Wanted to play with certain players.

They got what they wanted.

And haven’t proven Babcock wrong.

 

[PromisedLand]

You really need an explanation about leadership styles and motivating people and why intimidation tactics are harmful?

I wonder if you have kids, when you have to discipline them do you intimidate them with

- i will ground you if you did x,y,z
- you will not get yyy if you did xxx
- clean your room or do your homework or else....

hey may be our legal system also should stop with the intimidation of putting criminals behind bar too

we really need your leadership in the global framework. Lead the change bud. i am fully behind you!

lets go....

lets start by doing a 200 on a highway, the intimidation of speeding ticket is just too harsh and just wrong!

 

[Racer88]

A great team that, despite losing one of the biggest pieces on the team (on top of the multiple other injuries being dealt with), barely lost to the cup finalists, after outplaying and outscoring them.

But ultimately lost to them after being up 3 games to 1 with Tavares missing for almost the entire 4 games. The team with 2 of some of the highest paid players in the League that couldn’t get the job done against a team that really only has one star player and is in fact a better team then the Leafs as they proved in the playoffs.
The Leafs are not a great team. The comments about them outplaying the Habs is just smoke and mirrors.
The one stat that is beyond contestation is the Habs won more games then the Leafs. That’s all anyone on whatever side of this debate or any team for that matter will remember. The Habs got it done with a lesser skilled team and the Leafs did not

 

[Racer88]

I’m betting none of this is a problem if Dubas didn’t sign Tavares any further complicate things with his choice of coach

 

[Racer88]

I wonder if you have kids, when you have to discipline them do you intimidate them with

- i will ground you if you did x,y,z
- you will not get yyy if you did xxx
- clean your room or do your homework or else....

hey may be our legal system also should stop with the intimidation of putting criminals behind bar too

we really need your leadership in the global framework. Lead the change bud. i am fully behind you!

lets go....

lets start by doing a 200 on a highway, the intimidation of speeding ticket is just too harsh and just wrong!

You mean we can’t do 200 on the highway………..