Did Babcock have it right to begin with?

[smitty10]

Hmm.
You think he will NOT go into HOF?
I disagree.
Cool.
No issue.

The fact is that he didn't have positive results with the Leafs. The team didn't win a playoff series and the players hated him. Bad combo.

I wasn't arguing about his HOF credentials from another team.

 

[FraumBallard]

I think his image has been rebuilt somewhat, watching this team fail in the same ways under a new coach. It’s looks more and more like he was the least of our worries. I predict he gets a gig this season. His ego got him in the end, Dubas is showing the same characteristic in his own way, stubbornness and inflated self belief.

Agreed.
Too good a coach to not have a good NHL gig.
To offer a chance at redemption is an admirable thing.
For all the haters.
If Wonder Boy had anywhere near the record of success as Babs , we could include him as well.
Sadly.
He’s a dog as a gm.
Apologies to all dogs.

 

[FraumBallard]

I have no issue with accurately discussing the things Dubas does, but the topic being discussed was Lou. I wasn't discussing Dubas at all.

Get over Lou/Babs.
The only thing that matters is the disaster created by Wonder Boy.

 

[BertCorbeau]

Babcock was fired because he lost the room. It was untenable. Became clear soon after *why* he lost the room, he was a prick. Now whether you like it or not, it's an abrasiveness that rarely flies anymore, especially after 4+ years of it. The Spezza thing was a middle finger to management on opening night, and given how beloved Spezza became, and quickly, I can imagine the room was pretty pissed about it too.

Dubas is the GM, and getting his teeth kicked in on the Marner negotiation has hurt the ability to improve the depth, but ultimately, even if he HAD gotten a better deal Marner and Matthews need to produce. The loss to Montreal is on them. Now, look, Dubas is the GM, he wears the on-ice results, that's the ball game. And one more quick exit he's likely out, and fair enough, but better depth, more grit, and the reincarnation of Toe Blake aren't helping you if your two best players score one goal between them in seven games.

f*** you nailed it bud.

 

[FraumBallard]

Not sure why he's saying hi, or how this is relevant to my post, since he's not on the team, and hasn't been for a while now.

So.
No Sparks because he is NOT on the Team.
But.
Let’s never stop talking about Lou so we can cover for our horrible current mgt team.
Bizarre.
Aint gonna work either.

 

[Leafsdude7]

IMO, the same thing that made Babcock's tenure completely peter out at the end is proving to be Keefe's fatal flaw: the complete inability to change and adapt to situations. Neither seems to have an interest in changing from their main vision of how the team gets put together, and they don't seem to be able to recognize when what they're doing is not working anymore, whether in game, or between them.

There's a reason why the PP was so terrible at the end of this year, and I don't think it can be simply explained by "regression to the mean". The same 5 players were constantly put out, regardless of how bad they looked. I don't care how much they're being paid, if they're not doing the job, don't constantly put them out there before they show they can again.

Though I will at least give Keefe the benefit in that, unlike Babcock, he's not playing with the same kind of depth on the roster, what with the monstrosities at the top of the salary chart.

 

[Stonehands1990]

The fact is that he didn't have positive results with the Leafs. The team didn't win a playoff series and the players hated him. Bad combo.

I wasn't arguing about his HOF credentials from another team.

The team was also expected to lose every playoff series he coaches. Heavy underdogs

 

[Wilma]

True, Babcock never really had the roster he wanted…but he was a terrible coach here by the end.

He helped them punch up early but once he had talent…he created no defensive system, overplayed his scrubs, underplayed his stars, and managed to piss off just about all his players. He was a stubborn, arrogant ass of a coach. He wasn’t “right all along” and to argue such is pure revisionist fantasy.

That being said…I’m not sure the Keefe approach works either even if it solves most of the above but doesn’t get the team to elevate when it matters. I think that’s mostly on the players at this point (and GM for the roster) but Keefe has to take a share.

 

[Bomber0104]

HOF Coach prick.
I’m cool with that.
Habs hated Bowman.
Results matter.

Finally.
Someone who knows who they're talking about.
A rare breed.
Post more.

 

[stonec]

The heatable coach thing worked 10-15 years ago. Society has moved away from leadership by fear a long time ago. Sports and locker rooms are more resistant to this type of change, but I do believe most of Bowman's methods have little use today.

 

[Bomber0104]

The heatable coach thing worked 10-15 years ago. Society has moved away from leadership by fear a long time ago. Sports and locker rooms are more resistant to this type of change, but I do believe most of Bowman's methods have little use today.

So what is the use of a hockey coach at all, then?

Let the top earning players decide who goes over the boards each shift?

I'd love to know why you think this, truly...

 

[BertCorbeau]

So what is the use of a hockey coach at all, then?

Let the top earning players decide who goes over the boards each shift?

I'd love to know why you think this, truly...

You really need an explanation about leadership styles and motivating people and why intimidation tactics are harmful?

 

[Stonehands1990]

The heatable coach thing worked 10-15 years ago. Society has moved away from leadership by fear a long time ago. Sports and locker rooms are more resistant to this type of change, but I do believe most of Bowman's methods have little use today.

He preached accountability. I’m sure Babcock would have sat Mitch or played him against lower competition to get him going. Same nonsense with Thornton

Keefe has no accountability. That’s why the players love him and hated Babcock. Too fragile to get called out or shown up.

 

[Bomber0104]

You really need an explanation about leadership styles and motivating people and why intimidation tactics are harmful?

Yeah please school us all on what are the best coaching tactics for hockey players.

Can't wait to find out.

 

[Bomber0104]

He preached accountability. I’m sure Babcock would have sat Mitch or played him against lower competition to get him going. Same nonsense with Thornton

Keefe has no accountability. That’s why the players love him and hated Babcock. Too fragile to get called out or shown up.

Imagine getting shown the ropes by your coach and then getting handed record-setting $11-million dollar deals by your total rookie GM...

Yeah, there's something extremely wrong there.

And it cost the franchise their shot at a Cup.

Babcock is chuckling.

 

[BertCorbeau]

Yeah please school us all on what are the best coaching tactics for hockey players.

Can't wait to find out.

Well we're talking about leadership.. Effective leadership is most effective when the personalities of the team are understood. Core personality traits are reflective of their upbringing which has changed through each generation. The coaches ability to adapt and understand those personalities in the room can have a major impact on how the team performs.

Typically speaking the younger generations respond better to a leadership style that lends itself to input and feedback which leads to increased motivation and team commitment, rather than just dictation and fear mongering tactics. Conclusively it's no surprise that the young Leafs eventually tuned Babcock out because he wouldn't adapt to their personalities.

Babcock has the resume that gave him the ego to say it's his way or not. But he failed massively in his leadership style with this group because he didn't adapt his style to effectively motivate them. It's probably why the Red Wings were successful in his tenure, because it was an older team and that style of leadership motivated them appropriately.

 

[stonec]

Accountability is fine, but you can deliver the message in several ways. Strongly authoriatarian leadership by fear was pretty common everywhere in society in the 90's, I experienced it in school, in hobbies I took part in and also in the workplace. If this was the best way to get results today, companies would still be using it.

If you had a boss like Bowman or Babcock who made an effort to be unlikeable and watched your every move, would you really stick around in such a workplace? I can categorically say I wouldn't. If I was subject to such leadership in the field I work, it could maybe make me work harder in the "honeymoon phase", i.e. the first weeks or months. In the long run, it wouldn't motivate me to do things for the company and I certainly would look for another workplace, not because I'm lazy, but because I don't see such leadership increasing creativity, productivity or well-being at work.

 

[Bomber0104]

Well we're talking about leadership.. Effective leadership is most effective when the personalities of the team are understood. Core personality traits are reflective of their upbringing which has changed through each generation. The coaches ability to adapt and understand those personalities in the room can have a major impact on how the team performs.

Typically speaking the younger generations respond better to a leadership style that lends itself to input and feedback which leads to increased motivation and team commitment, rather than just dictation and fear mongering tactics. Conclusively it's no surprise that the young Leafs eventually tuned Babcock out because he wouldn't adapt to their personalities.

Babcock has the resume that gave him the ego to say it's his way or not. But he failed massively in his leadership style with this group because he didn't adapt his style to effectively motivate them. It's probably why the Red Wings were successful in his tenure, because it was an older team and that style of leadership motivated them appropriately.

He only failed when a rookie GM came in and bucked his style, for his own gain.

Imagine being told one brutally honest thing by your head coach, and then getting told another thing and being handed an $11 million contract by your rookie GM...

Coach is underminded.

Player no longer listens to anything the coach says.

GM has no experience in the NHL/pro-ranks.
Coach has won everything there is to win in the NHL/pro-ranks.

Something is off here.

You actually wonder why the Leafs are doing worse than since HOF GM/Coach combo were let go?

 

[BertCorbeau]

Imagine getting shown the ropes by your coach and then getting handed record-setting $11-million dollar deals by your total rookie GM...

Yeah, there's something extremely wrong there.

And it cost the franchise their shot at a Cup.

Babcock is chuckling.

The Marner contract has not crippled the Leafs at a chance at a cup. At most you're talking $2 mill on the cap .. Cup winning teams have gotten by with bad contracts before.

 

[BertCorbeau]

He only failed when a rookie GM came in that bucked his style, for his own gain.

Imagine being told one brutally honest thing by your head coach, and then getting told another thing and being handed an $11 million contract by your rookie GM...

Coach is underminded.

Player no longer listens to anything the coach says.

GM has no experience in the NHL/pro-ranks.
Coach has won everything there is to win in the NHL/pro-ranks.

Something is off here.

Babs asked Marner who he thought the hardest and the least hardest worker on the team was and then told the team, throwing him under the bus .. How the hell is that some sort of brutal "show the ropes" honesty?

It's not unreliable to think that the overpay was because Marner was nearly demanding a trade out of there from that.

 

[Bomber0104]

Babs asked Marner who he thought the hardest and the least hardest worker on the team was and then told the team, throwing him under the bus .. How the hell is that some sort of brutal "show the ropes" honesty?

It's not unreliable to think that the overpay was because Marner was nearly demanding a trade out of there from that.

Who said a thing about Marner?

Why do you assume this is just about Marner?

 

[BertCorbeau]

He only failed when a rookie GM came in and bucked his style, for his own gain.

Imagine being told one brutally honest thing by your head coach, and then getting told another thing and being handed an $11 million contract by your rookie GM...

Coach is underminded.

Player no longer listens to anything the coach says.

GM has no experience in the NHL/pro-ranks.
Coach has won everything there is to win in the NHL/pro-ranks.

Something is off here.

You actually wonder why the Leafs are doing worse than since HOF GM/Coach combo were let go?

Not really worse .. They didn't get out of the first round either.. And won the division last year

 

[BertCorbeau]

Who said a thing about Marner?

Why do you assume this is just about Marner?

Because Marner is public enemy number one when it comes to talking about Dubas' contract negotiations.

 

[Bomber0104]

Not really worse .. They didn't get out of the first round either.. And won the division last year

What divison?

A made-up division.

I'd take Babcock's Leafs over Keefe's curl-up-and-die version any day but that's just me..

 

[Bomber0104]

Because Marner is public enemy number one when it comes to talking about Dubas' contract negotiations.

Yeah but I never said anything about Marner.

Strawman arguments they call that, no?

I don't know moderator-lingo though so I may be wrong here..