Prospect Info: Devon Levi, G (Obtained in Reinhart trade) Northeastern University (NCAA)

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Jim Bob

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Can you post it here? Logically, it doesn't make sense. Sure, there are different styles of goalies with varied weaknesses, but if you have a team that can suppress danger changes, the value of having star goaltenders matters less.

How does ClearSight Analytics reconcile the good to bad goalies who were part of deep cup runs or championships, like Leighton and the Chicago teams that won one with Corey Crawford and then with backup Niemi a year or two later. Are we supposed to believe that Crawford and Niemi were elite when Chicago was good and then bad when they weren't? Doesn't seem logically consistent.

How did Carey Price go from elite to bad back to elite again? That pattern seems to mirror the skill of his team.

CSA is behind a paywall.

But here is a good article:

A Guide to the Data of Clear Sight Analytics (CSA) | InGoal Magazine

Ingoal has access the the CSA data and they have articles on their site and they talk about it on their podcast somewhat regularly.
 

Buffaloed

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Most ELCs are two-way, meaning he'd only make around $75k a year in the AHL. Maybe a bit more, but not 20+ years in a career more.
The signing bonus is what's used to entice kids to turn pro. An in demand player would get the max 10% of ELC. So Levi would be looking at a lump sum of $92,500 each year for the next 3 seasons. Even if he never saw a day in the NHL he'd take home close to $500k over the course of his contract. Kids in tough financial situations are hard pressed to turn that down. I don't think the Levi family has money issues, but it's a factor in a lot of signings.
 

elchud

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I think its funny to hand-wring over this biz post-CalP. Which is why I do it. It probably isn't funny at all.
 

Chainshot

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I think its funny to hand-wring over this biz post-CalP. Which is why I do it. It probably isn't funny at all.

It's gone on even before Petersen's situation -- the handwringing, not the signings that is. Seeing people do it about Power is even less amusing.
 

p0nchik

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CSA is behind a paywall.

But here is a good article:

A Guide to the Data of Clear Sight Analytics (CSA) | InGoal Magazine

Ingoal has access the the CSA data and they have articles on their site and they talk about it on their podcast somewhat regularly.

I realize that it's intellectual property, but I'd rather not blindly believe analytics without understanding the methodology behind it.

I don't think it takes a brain surgeon to understand how much more important it is to have a solid team in front of you rather than a weak team and a solid goalie. We see it year in and year out.

I know it's difficult given the secrecy behind their formula, but if someone can explain the Flyers cup run with Leighton, an AHL goalie, Blackhawks winning cups with Crawford and Niemi, two meh goalies, and then Carey Price going from elite to bum and then back to elite with goalie analytics, I would give you a solid head nod.

Goalie analytics are heavily dependent on factors that they cannot control, even when you isolate variables, it will still never be authentic given the influence everyone else has on the ice. The same can be said for skaters as well, but certainly to a lesser extent. I just don't really care for hockey analytics and especially for goalies.
 

Jim Bob

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Feb 27, 2002
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I realize that it's intellectual property, but I'd rather not blindly believe analytics without understanding the methodology behind it.

I don't think it takes a brain surgeon to understand how much more important it is to have a solid team in front of you rather than a weak team and a solid goalie. We see it year in and year out.

I know it's difficult given the secrecy behind their formula, but if someone can explain the Flyers cup run with Leighton, an AHL goalie, Blackhawks winning cups with Crawford and Niemi, two meh goalies, and then Carey Price going from elite to bum and then back to elite with goalie analytics, I would give you a solid head nod.

Goalie analytics are heavily dependent on factors that they cannot control, even when you isolate variables, it will still never be authentic given the influence everyone else has on the ice. The same can be said for skaters as well, but certainly to a lesser extent. I just don't really care for hockey analytics and especially for goalies.

https://www.csahockey.com/what-we-do

A Guide to the Data of Clear Sight Analytics (CSA) | InGoal Magazine

The Importance of Shot Quality

All goaltenders know that not all shots are created equal. An unscreened wrister from the point is far easier to stop than the same shot with a body in front. Add another body, then another player skating through the goalie’s line of sight as the shot is released, and what could have been an easy save turns into a tough stop.

CSA tracks 34 separate variables on every shot, making theirs the most comprehensive shot-quality tracking system available today. They not only mark where the shot originated, but also what type of shot it was (wrist, backhand, slap, snap), the goalie’s sightlines (screened by an opponent, their own player, both, whether the screen was moving), whether and how the puck was deflected (by their own player or an opponent), and more.

Even more importantly, CSA tracks pre-shot movement, including passes and carries, and the “flow” of the plays that precede each shot: a two-on-one where a player makes a long lateral pass to a teammate is very dangerous. It’s even more dangerous when another long lateral pass follows that, and CSA considers all this in its evaluation of shot quality. Whether a shot comes off the rush, low-to-high, a broken play, or a netback-situation like a wrap-around, CSA notes it.

Such rich detail has enabled CSA to determine how likely a given specific event is to result in a goal. Their massive and ever-expanding database of shots allows them to calculate the goal-likelihood of very specific types of play.

A shot coming off a two-on-one where two long lateral passes are made is, for example, more likely to end in a goal than a breakaway. An unscreened point shot scores on only a tiny fraction of attempts.

Goalies know this intuitively, but having the data to confirm precisely how tough one save is likely to be over another is indispensable for anyone who cares about goaltending performance.

Analytics will never be able to predict or explain anything. Just because analytics can't explain why Skinner has fallen off a cliff with regards to finishing and why his shooting% has been so variable in his career does not mean that analytics have no value.

In a recent InGoal podcast, they talked about how the NHL teams that contracted with CSA and used their data as a part of their decision making process when signing UFA goalies last summer had more success than teams that didn't utilize CSA data.

They can't name teams, but they hinted strongly that Minnesota used CSA data ahead of the decision to sign Cam Talbot who had a strong season with the Wild. And that was one example.

Myth Busting with Carey Price | InGoal Magazine

And as far as Price goes, here is a snippet of this article that used a lot of CSA data:

REGULAR SEASON AND IMPORTANCE OF REST

So, where do all the other storylines surrounding Price come from? More to the point, are the negative narratives even inaccurate when it comes to recent regular season performances?
The reality is Price did not have a great — or even good — 2020-21 season, and not just by the standards set early in his career or his status as the NHL’s highest paid goalie.

Using those same metrics from CSA, Price had a -1.5% save percentage differential during the regular season, which ranked 60th among 68 goalies that faced at least 200 scoring chances. His Goals Saved Above Expected was -8.12, meaning he gave up 8.12 more goals than expected based on his workload and the shot quality he faced, which ranked 62nd in the NHL.

Price’s poor performance wasn’t about the Canadiens being a bad defensive team, either. His .895 expected save percentage ranked 18th in the NHL, and Montreal was actually second only to the Dallas Stars in their high-danger chances at 5-on-5 rate, slightly ahead of Toronto and an indicator that first round upset might not have been as unexpected as it seemed. For comparison’s sake, Hellebuyck had a lower expected save percentage (.888), outperformed it at +1.5% and saved 16.48 goals in the regular season, the fourth most in the NHL.

Going back to last season, Price performed almost exactly as expected and ended up saving the Canadiens 3.74 goals while facing the fifth most chances in the NHL. But much like this year, he seemed to flip a switch in the playoffs, posting +1.6% save percentage differential (fifth best in the playoffs) and 3.49 goals saved and eliminating heavily-favored Pittsburgh Penguins in the play-in round with a .947 raw save percentage in that best-of-five series.

What can we take from that discrepancy between regular season and postseason?

It may not be a coincidence that both followed a long break. Price’s performance in the 2020 playoff bubble came after the NHL shut down for four months because of the pandemic, and his play this season comes after missing the final four weeks with a concussion. As remarkable as his ability to come in relatively cold and perform at a high level is, rest may also matter.

It was something former Canadiens goaltending coach Stephane Waite mentioned discussing workload and balancing between rest and rust for goalies going into the playoffs.

“You have to know what kind of guys you have under you,” said Waite, who won the Stanley Cup twice during eight years as the goaltending coach of the Chicago Blackhawks, and was with the Montreal Canadiens from 2013-14 until being let go on March 2 this season.

“Some goalies, the more they play, the better they are. Like Corey Crawford, don’t give him a day off, he doesn’t like that. The more he’s playing, the better he is. With Carey, it’s completely opposite. You need to manage his schedule. You have to know your guy.”

THE REST OF THE NARRATIVES

While criticism of Price over the past two regular seasons may be fair, at least relative to the expectations of his reputation and current 8-year, $84-million contract, the reality is talk about him not being the same since 2014-15 and the injuries that followed isn’t accurate either.

Just two seasons ago, in 2018-19, Price was the only goalie in the NHL who saved more goals than Vasilevskiy, that season’s Vezina Trophy winner. The idea he hasn’t been good since 2015 is hyperbole, even if consistency has been an issue, especially in the regular season.
 
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jc17

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A Guide to the Data of Clear Sight Analytics (CSA) | InGoal Magazine



Analytics will never be able to predict or explain anything. Just because analytics can't explain why Skinner has fallen off a cliff with regards to finishing and why his shooting% has been so variable in his career does not mean that analytics have no value.

In a recent InGoal podcast, they talked about how the NHL teams that contracted with CSA and used their data as a part of their decision making process when signing UFA goalies last summer had more success than teams that didn't utilize CSA data.

They can't name teams, but they hinted strongly that Minnesota used CSA data ahead of the decision to sign Cam Talbot who had a strong season with the Wild. And that was one example.

Myth Busting with Carey Price | InGoal Magazine

And as far as Price goes, here is a snippet of this article that used a lot of CSA data:

Maybe I'll have to listen to the podcasts, but I don't really think this answers @p0nchik 's question. I still don't see where it implies that a goalie's style and team's system aligning means more than general goaltending skill.

Why can analytics never predict or explain anything? Maybe not perfectly, but that's sort of the whole point in using them.

The explanation of variation in Price's performance also leaves something to be desired. With 2 decent performances after extended breaks I guess attributing his performance to rest follows some logic, but there's a ton of speculation in that. And still this does not support the idea, that the team style and goalie style are the most important variables
 

Jim Bob

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Maybe I'll have to listen to the podcasts, but I don't really think this answers @p0nchik 's question. I still don't see where it implies that a goalie's style and team's system aligning means more than general goaltending skill.

Why can analytics never predict or explain anything? Maybe not perfectly, but that's sort of the whole point in using them.

The explanation of variation in Price's performance also leaves something to be desired. With 2 decent performances after extended breaks I guess attributing his performance to rest follows some logic, but there's a ton of speculation in that. And still this does not support the idea, that the team style and goalie style are the most important variables

The way teams have successfully used the CSA data to make better decisions is to understand what kinds of shots their team tends to give up and then target a goalie that does better against those kinds of shots.

Like the above snippets pointed out, not all shots are created equal. Different teams with different schemes tend to give up more kinds of shots than others. That is why CSA has their stats that compare both Save% & Goals Allowed vs what would be expected based on the historical data for the exact types of shots the goalie faced.

So here is how teams have used CSA to make better decisions:

- Team A looks at the shots that they have given up under their current coach and they see that they do a good job defending against passes across the slotline on the rush. But, they give up a lot of point shots through traffic with tips because they collapse more in the D Zone than a lot of teams.

So, they target a UFA goalie that is above average against those point shots through screens and don't worry that he is below average on plays with a pass across the slotline since they don't surrender those kinds of shots all too often.

Another variable to take into account is how some goalies are better in a busy environment and struggle in a low event environment. Think Hasek's numbers seeing a lot of action behind the Sabres vs seeing less action behind the Wings. Pekka Rinne started more actively playing pucks behind the net as Nashville became tighter defensively and he saw less shots. He needed the action to stay sharp, so he started being more aggressive in stopping hard rims behind the net as a result.



InGoal Radio Podcast Episode 44: Steve Valiquette | InGoal Magazine
 
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Rowley Birkin

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@Jim Bob

Since you are the most knowledgable on this & just out of interest... Have you gone as far as looking at which goalies would be good fits with the current Sabres team/system according to these analytics?

If so - do you have a list ?
 

Jim Bob

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@Jim Bob

Since you are the most knowledgable on this & just out of interest... Have you gone as far as looking at which goalies would be good fits with the current Sabres team/system according to these analytics?

If so - do you have a list ?

I don't have access to all the CSA data. So, I don't know what kinds of chances that the Sabres give up under Granato. Plus, you have the small sample size issue under Granato, so it would be tough to make a really good call given that fact.

Given that the Sabres are rebooting things, this kind of conversation will be more important in either the summer of '22 or '23 when the Sabres are likely diving into the UFA market for a goalie that can help them push for the playoffs.
 

Rowley Birkin

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I don't have access to all the CSA data. So, I don't know what kinds of chances that the Sabres give up under Granato. Plus, you have the small sample size issue under Granato, so it would be tough to make a really good call given that fact.

Given that the Sabres are rebooting things, this kind of conversation will be more important in either the summer of '22 or '23 when the Sabres are likely diving into the UFA market for a goalie that can help them push for the playoffs.

I'd like to think if we're enduring this crap for another couple of years - at least one of UPL/Portillo/Levi would emerge as a solid NHL starter by that time.
 

Jim Bob

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I'd like to think if we're enduring this crap for another couple of years - at least one of UPL/Portillo/Levi would emerge as a solid NHL starter by that time.

Right now, I am not optimistic about UPL being a 55+ game NHL #1 goalie that helps this team make the playoffs. Since turning pro, he has not looked great above the ECHL.

And '22-23 or even '23-24 is too soon to expect Portillo or Levi to be there as this season will be their first season as NCAA #1 goalies. They are at least 3-5 years away from being ready to be a 55+ game NHL #1 goalie that helps this team make the playoffs.

At a minimum, I expect the Sabres to need to acquire a goalie that can platoon with UPL.
 
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Jim Bob

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Clear Sight Analytics Shows Why Sharks Traded for Hill

That should help this team. “The defensive environment [in San Jose] was a difficult one — they were giving up a lot of high percentage chances per 60 minutes,” Nolan Schaefer, ex-San Jose Sharks netminder and Clear Sight Analytics’ VP for Product Development, noted.

Per Natural Stat Trick, Hill was 13th in the NHL this season with an .838 High-Danger Save % (of 51 goalies, 800+ 5-on-5 minutes). Incumbent San Jose Sharks starter Martin Jones was 37th with an .806.

Clear Sight Analytics helps us drill down further: Hill was fantastic against Slot Line Plays.

In related news, the San Jose Sharks surrendered the second-most Slot Line Plays in the league last year.
 
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Rowley Birkin

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Right now, I am not optimistic about UPL being a 55+ game NHL #1 goalie that helps this team make the playoffs. Since turning pro, he has not looked great above the ECHL.

And '22-23 or even '23-24 is too soon to expect Portillo or Levi to be there as this season will be their first season as NCAA #1 goalies. They are at least 3-5 years away from being ready to be a 55+ game NHL #1 goalie that helps this team make the playoffs.

At a minimum, I expect the Sabres to need to acquire a goalie that can platoon with UPL.

I don't disagree - but hopefully we won't be in a position where we're looking for an established starter moving forward. FWIW i was all in on Wallstedt with the Philly pick - so I'm not expecting miracles. But the fact we passed on him/Cossa suggests that Adams likes what he has in UPL/Portillo & also probably knew he was getting Levi at that point too.
 

Jim Bob

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I don't disagree - but hopefully we won't be in a position where we're looking for an established starter moving forward. FWIW i was all in on Wallstedt with the Philly pick - so I'm not expecting miracles. But the fact we passed on him/Cossa suggests that Adams likes what he has in UPL/Portillo & also probably knew he was getting Levi at that point too.

Even if the Sabres had drafted Wallstedt (my choice) or Cossa, neither of them were likely to be ready to be an NHL #1 in 22-23 or 23-24. I know Spencer Knight looking good for Florida at the end of his D+2 season has people hopeful that the same might happen for future 1st round goalies. But, it is too soon to expect that kind of rapid development. Heck, I won't be shocked if Knight spends a considerable amount of time in the AHL this season.

The long, slow development of goalies like Linus Ullmark is much more the norm. Or, how it wasn't until his D+5 season that Hellebuyck was an NHL #1 and his D+6 season where he had an NHL Save% over .910.
 

sabremike

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Even if the Sabres had drafted Wallstedt (my choice) or Cossa, neither of them were likely to be ready to be an NHL #1 in 22-23 or 23-24. I know Spencer Knight looking good for Florida at the end of his D+2 season has people hopeful that the same might happen for future 1st round goalies. But, it is too soon to expect that kind of rapid development. Heck, I won't be shocked if Knight spends a considerable amount of time in the AHL this season.

The long, slow development of goalies like Linus Ullmark is much more the norm. Or, how it wasn't until his D+5 season that Hellebuyck was an NHL #1 and his D+6 season where he had an NHL Save% over .910.
It's almost as if Adams is a blithering idiot for not going out and finding an actual NHL quality goalie for the next 3 seasons because the likelihood of anyone in our organization being ready anytime soon is remote. Seeing all those 7-3 losses the next few seasons is going to be so much fun.
 

Jim Bob

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It's almost as if Adams is a blithering idiot for not going out and finding an actual NHL quality goalie for the next 3 seasons because the likelihood of anyone in our organization being ready anytime soon is remote. Seeing all those 7-3 losses the next few seasons is going to be so much fun.

This team isn’t trying to win this season. They are trying to win the lottery. So, signing Anderson and Dell to one year deals this off season fits the plan.
 

sabremike

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This team isn’t trying to win this season. They are trying to win the lottery. So, signing Anderson and Dell to one year deals this off season fits the plan.
Not a big Bill Nye fan but he did have one of the most brilliant lines ever when he said "The lottery is essentially a tax on people who are bad at math". I'm so sick and tired of BS artists like Adams.
 

sabremike

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That, and to provide room if UPL steps up.
He wasn't a particularly good AHL goalie so unless a miracle occurs and he improves in a single off-season at a rate that would be among the greatest by a goalie in that span in living memory that has no chance of happening.
 

Der Jaeger

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He wasn't a particularly good AHL goalie so unless a miracle occurs and he improves in a single off-season at a rate that would be among the greatest by a goalie in that span in living memory that has no chance of happening.

Have some context. The kid is 28 games removed from the ECHL. He was lights out for Sudbury, and then amazing for Finland at the U20 WJCs. He went to Cincinnati and played well enough for a call up to Rochester - for 10 games. He wasn't great, but that happens with young goaltenders.

It would've been ideal to put UPL back in Cincinnati last season, but the ECHL didn't play. He was decent for TPS, average for Rochester, and average for Buffalo.

Remember, he's only played in 25 AHL games over 3 seasons. He's only 22 years old. And last season was not ideal for goalie development. NHL goalies regularly bounced back and forth from the AHL to the NHL until they figure things out.

We seem to be waiting for another Hasek or Miller. We should just be looking for how most NHL goalies develop. UPL is on that track still.
 

Rowley Birkin

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This team isn’t trying to win this season. They are trying to win the lottery. So, signing Anderson and Dell to one year deals this off season fits the plan.

As much as i hate it - i think this is right.

The thing is - Anderson would be a fine #2 & Dell a fine #3/AHL tweener. The fact they were rumoured to be heavily in talks to resign Ullmark suggests that this was not always the plan. If we had someone to push Anderson/Dell down a slot - it would be more promising. This coming from a guy who thought many here put a little too much emphasis on the goalie situation last season.
 

Djp

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Even if the Sabres had drafted Wallstedt (my choice) or Cossa, neither of them were likely to be ready to be an NHL #1 in 22-23 or 23-24. I know Spencer Knight looking good for Florida at the end of his D+2 season has people hopeful that the same might happen for future 1st round goalies. But, it is too soon to expect that kind of rapid development. Heck, I won't be shocked if Knight spends a considerable amount of time in the AHL this season.

The long, slow development of goalies like Linus Ullmark is much more the norm. Or, how it wasn't until his D+5 season that Hellebuyck was an NHL #1 and his D+6 season where he had an NHL Save% over .910.

UPL is in D+5 year this year…final ELC year. People seem to forget his surgery.

buffalo has vet G in tokarski, Dell, and Anderson

It's almost as if Adams is a blithering idiot for not going out and finding an actual NHL quality goalie for the next 3 seasons because the likelihood of anyone in our organization being ready anytime soon is remote. Seeing all those 7-3 losses the next few seasons is going to be so much fun.

someone with 1-2 years. Not 3.

In 23/24 season UPL is on the team
Levi and Portillo are on ELCs in their early 20s
You can easily get a 1 yr vet goalie

it’s a waste of cap space to invest 4+ yrs on a goalie signing.

there are a bunch of goalies who would be 1 yr signings for 22/23.
 
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